Track for Tinplate?

I'll let others weigh-in on the Lionel historical question.

I use O gauge on my tinplate layout. I looked at FastTrack and some of the other modern track systems, but I really like the look of tin track on what's essentially a "toy train" layout.

And you can't beat that clackety-clack sound.

Prewar O gauge would be my choice.

That's just the Tinplate purist in me.

I can't swear this is entirely accurate but I'm pretty certain that the bulk of Lionel O Gauge pre-war Tinplate ran on Lionel O Gauge tubular track and that is what I run mine on.  For toy trains I just think, and some people will get a kick out of this, it is more prototypical. 

I never saw figures, if they exist, for O-gauge VS 027 sales.  Although I run some prewar, my layout is 027 track.  For pure tinplate though, O-gauge all the way.

bag09,

   In 1900 Lionel O Gauge Tin Plate Trains, all ran on O Gauge Tubular Lionel track.

I still own the original 1900 Lionel 263E train set even today, including the 711

Lionel switches.  Today I run my Tin Plate trains on FasTrack with the 711 and later made 072 Lionel switches. 

PCRR/Dave 

May be of interest for you. MERKUR the Czech producer of tinplate modeltrains gauge O has a range of tinplate track, straigth track 55mm, 170mm, 235mm,300mm, curved track radius 625mm, 760mm and 900 mm. They even have switches/points, in the radius 625mm, 760mm and 900mm. The switch handle of the 760 and 900 mm can be moiunted on the rigth or the left hand side of the switch.

Price for the track is € 2,94 (no matter which kind of track you choose). The switches are € 44,34 for the 625 mm and € 45,46 for the 760 and 900 mm. The prices are without the Dutch VAT.

My UK costumers love the track and the switches while they are compatuible with old and new tinplate track and the antique and new modeltrains pass the switches smoothley.

MERKUR also provide two rail tinplate track, AT this moment the switches are only available in three rail.

for the availbilty, price, and look, you can't beat god old Lionel tube track. I have it on the main layout, O27, and I have O Gauge on the Christmas platform.

I have a set of the Lionel 1024 O-27  ground throw switches.  I don't know what era they were made, but I know some of our formunites can fill in the blanks.  

I want to caution you the switch numbers may be 1022.  (My eyes are getting weak)

Al

The O Gauge sets came with O Gauge track starting in 1915, up to 1966(one "O" set), and then one set in 1972.  The rest, except for Super O sets starting in 1957(through 1966), were O-27 starting in about 1932 until the introduction of Fastrack.

Depending on the equipment, you may want to use O-27 with 1024 & 1121 switches, as the pre-022/042 tinplate switches are getting harder to find, and some trains will bounce and fly over the O(022/042) switches with guard rails.

Lionel "O" was 22 years old when the 263E came out in 1937.

I have several of the 1024 switches, and really like them. all others are 1121. on my O Gauge Christmas platform I have two of the O22.

Rob,

   The pre production 263E was made in 1900 delivered in 1901, you are correct the production model came out in 37, I own the original pre-production work train.   

A one of a kind Lionel original, Tin Plate test train.

PCRR/Dave

Wait, Lionel made "O" trains 15 years before "O" track, with a reverse unit that won't be invented yet for  30+ years?

There are clearly two different eras of track in 0-27.  The O gauge track may be universal.  In some of the pre-war and a few, maybe only one, of the post-war O-27 steam locomotives single reduction gearing was used.  This results in the gear cast into the back of the driver extending below the rail head.  This will hit guard rails and magnetic uncoupling tracks causing the loco to jump or short circuit on the later post war (1121 and 1122) switches and uncoupling tracks.  

When mixing O and O-27 the problem you may run into is the center rail collectors.  The spacing between the rollers on O-27 locos may be to short to span the insulated frogs in O gauge switches,so the loco may go dead on the switch.  On O gauge locos the rollers may extend so far forward and/or the rollers may be so wide that they short on O-27 switches.

I find it is best to keep the equipment on the track system it was designed for.

"O" also:

021 switch late:

021 switch early:

Rob, thanks for posting the photos of the O gauge switches.  It shows the difference present in both O and O-27 early and late switches.  In the early switches the straight and curved closure rails pivot closing the gap where the frog should be.  This makes a guard rail unnecessary as there is no gap in the frog.  Without guard rails there is room for the gear on the back side of the drive wheels if it extends below the head of the rail. When the switches were redesigned to work like real railroad switches with frogs and guard rails, the locos with the large gear will not work properly.

What I do not know is if there were any O gauge locomotives with the large gear on the back side of the wheel that would interfere with a guard rail on the O gauge switches.  If there was not, then all the O gauge equipment should run on either style of switches.

Hi David,

I just asked some help from my English friend who knows a lot more about the technical aspects and who has some experience with the different kinds of tinplate.

"

The Merkur switches shown in the pictures are all made in tinplate type rail like current Lionel , not 031 or 027 .  There are three types to match 072 , 054 and  048 diameters .

Like the early type they all have the straight and curved closure rail pivoting on a plate so there is no frog or or guard rail and the rail is continuous through the switch. This means that you can run any make of train through them without the backs of the wheell catching the guard rail .

I think that some makes of locomotives such as Marx and the cheaper types , may not run smoothly through later Lionel switches because they have deep gearwheels on the driving wheel that extends below the railhead .  The cars may not run smoothly through the frog either if they have deep flanges on the wheel ,.so the early type is best if you have lots of different makes of trains .

In Europe we will try and use early type switches if we are running  different makes , but the Lionel 072 switch is expensive new and doesn’t work  and the older type is  difficult to find and often broken .

The new Merkur switches are cheaper and will suit Lionel and anything else , even those with a gear on the back of the driving wheel . The space for the gearwheel to fit in the gap between the closure rails where they pivot on the plate is about 10mm or 3/8ths of an inch ..which should be plenty .

They are a good new alternative to the early type of Lionel switch ."

I get the same remarks of people in Holland who use the old Märklin and Hornby track and now use the MEKUR track to built new layouts.

Well for all of you just good to know there are soem alternatives.

Rob

I use O Gauge tinplate track for my prewar tinplate.

However, switches are an issue.

The "proper" switch is the 022, but the guard rails do cause some problems, depending what you are running.  Marx and American Flyer prewar O Gauge tinplate are notorious for the large gear on the drivers, they will not go through the 022 tinplate switch.

Therefore, I use the 1122 switch, which I believe is an 027 switch, but has no guard rails and will take any of the older equipment.  It does mean shimming under the 1122 switches, but I am very happy with the result.  I just traced the switches on 1/4" luan plywood and cut them out, and slipped one of these under each switch.  I run mostly Flyer, Marx, and Ives prewar tinplate on my O Gauge track, a little bit of Lionel.

I believe you mean the 1121 switch without guard rails:

This is the 1122E:

This is the 1122:

Rob, I am away from my layout on vacation, but I believe you are right, that should be the 1121 Lionel switch, the big gears on Flyer and Marx prewar have no issues, and normal Ives and Lionel tinplate also no problems.  Thanks for catching the number.

I originally got the tip to use these switches from one of Peter Riddle's books.

HI,

What are the general differences between O and O-27 Track?

 What track has the sharper curves, O or O-27?

Sorry, I am a newbee to the hobby.

Thanks

O27 track makes a circle that is 27 inches in diameter when you put together eight curved pieces of track. O gauge makes a 31 inch circle. So the O27 curves are "sharper,"  although to the naked eye it's not that apparent.

The other thing (which is useful when buying) is O27 track comes with brown ties. O gauge ties are black.

Actually 027 ties only became brown after the MPC/Fundimensions buyout in the late 60s, prior to that the ties were black first and later silver. 027 ties generally have closed ends (a piece of the metal folded down on each end) and are noticeably shorter in height than the regular 0 gauge track. (This applies to Lionel only)

Roland

Will the prewar electric locomotives and passenger cars run on O27 track?

Thanks

 Scott

you shouldn't have any problem using most prewar tinplate on 027 track. Maybe the 256 electric will give you problems but I don't own one so I can't check on my holiday layout.

The long stream liners, City of Portland, Hiawatha and Railchief cars as well as scale and semi-scale Hudsons are out, but they won't run on 031 either, they will run on 072 which mates to 031 so you may want to consider 031 for future expansion possibilities. Also Flyer brought out "040" about the same time they brought out their stream liners so they might have trouble with 027 as well. (besides everything runs better on wider radius track). Even the 260/263/255 look awkward on 027 .If you stick to shorter wheelbase locos and cars you should be fine with the 027.

Roland

Hi,

 I have a Lionel 2037 Steamer that pulls eight cars behind it and it does so easily around my Christmas Oval Layout, (which I am assuming is made up of O27 curve track, because of the black ties with the metal flaps on each end of the ties).

Is the Lionel engines,#260, #263, and #255 longer wheel base engines than the Lionel

#2037?. For future steam engine purchases, I would like to know the above information so I don't have problems with these engines negotiating the O27 curves.

 Would it be possible for someone out there to post a picture of O Gauge track,(and ties) and O27 track, (and ties)?

Thanks,

John

You can start at the Lionel Website for starters.

The O / O-27 nomenclature can get a little confusing.  On the one hand, the diameter of curves is referred to as O27, O32, O57, etc., referring to curves with a diameter of the number following the O.

But the difference between traditional O track and O-27 track is another matter.  The O27 track is lower profile; the ties and rails are not as high as on traditional O.  This was an early attempt by Lionel to make a more "realistic" (and also less expensive) track.   That is why I have to put shims under the O27 switches, to bring the rail height even with the traditional O track.

But O-27 track is available in various diameter curves: Not all O-27 track curves are O27 diameter, there are wider curves in O-27 track.  And, there are O27 diameter curves available in traditional O track.

So in other words, when someone says O27, you want to determine whether they are talking about curve diameter or about the type of low-profile track.

Most prewar tinplate can run on either, but watch the following:

- some trains cannot run on the tightest diameter (O27) curves, whether it is on O or O-27 track.

- some trains with large drive gears cannot negotiate O switches with the guard rails, they work okay with the O-27 #1121 switches

- some trains with especially big flanges on the wheels may have trouble with the lower profile rail in O-27, the flange may bump along the ties.

That, I've never seen.

I didn't add the information about rail height just to keep things simple. Larger radius 027 profile track was generally made by Marx, I have not kept up on what Lionel has offered in 027 profile post 1970. Pre 1970 Lionel only offered 27" diameter 027 profile track. If you have 0 profile track that is 27" diameter and it was made by Lionel I would be surprised, I have never seen Lionel 0 profile track tighter than 31" diameter. I have seen similar track by other manufacturers in slightly tighter curves. Switches are always a problem, if you limit yourself to 1121 switches then you can't run some of the longer cars and locomotives. If you plan to stay with short locos and cars 1121s are fine. Flyer made some 40" switches without guard rails, larger than that it gets harder to find something that will work universally

Roland

Marx made O-27(34) wide radius switches w/o guard rails.