Traction tire replacement nightmare

Lionel has a complete break down of the engine on their website. If you are talking about the eccentric crank assembly, they are available for 5.00.

Here's a link to the parts Nick:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...;submitButton=Search

Taking all that stuff off is why my CC2S still doesn't have traction tires.

I'm not a fan of traction tires.  Wouldn't adding weight to locomotives, during the manufacturing process, eliminate the need for traction tires ?   Whether it's weight or traction tires, it seems to me that the street on the gears would be the same.  

Dan Padova posted:

I'm not a fan of traction tires.  Wouldn't adding weight to locomotives, during the manufacturing process, eliminate the need for traction tires ?   Whether it's weight or traction tires, it seems to me that the street on the gears would be the same.  

Traction tire = cheaper than more weight or MagnaTraction.  ;D 

Mitch 

You think that tire replacement above was complicated, try replacing a traction tire on an LGB crocodile. It requires a serious gearbox "surgery" to remove the intact geared wheelset amidst a delicate Reed switch. See my detailed blow by blow account on the HONGZ forum! 

Looking at my CC2S it seems ugly enough, you have to remove ALL the rods and linkage to get to the tires.  Since it's an articulated beast, you get to do that four times.  That's ugly enough for me.

Traction tires are evil, period in ANY gauge! I even swapped out two drive wheel sets on my LCT Brute with a spare set from a 381E that I took apart for parts. After the changeout, it pulled the four Showroom cars just fine. Std gauge engines do NOT need those infernal things!

I should mention it was a "drop in" procedure for the Brute as the replacement wheels had axles, bearings and wheels. I sold the Brute some time ago and the buyer thanked me for replacing the traction tire wheelsets! I believe I still have the traction-tired drivers packed away somewhere! LOL!

Traction tires are NOT that difficult to remove/install IF you have the proper tools and know the techniques.

I do the locomotive maintenance work on the locomotives for the Hagerstown, MD Roundhouse Museum's locomotives, and believe me there are a lot of traction tires that need replacing.

When cleaning the locomotive wheels, do NOT use rubbing alcohol, it cracks the rubber on the tires.  Use denatured alcohol.

Diesels can be done without removing the truck side covers.

Take a look at the photos below.  First - make the two small 'grabbers' that I hand made.  You can also purchase similar tools at an Auto parts store, they are used on disc brakes.  I used four large, unpainted, paper clips and soldered them, two  for each tool. 

Next you MUST have 5mm and 5.5mm nut drivers to easily remove the drive axle screws on steamers.

The engine shown is my Scale Greenbriar.

     1.  Unscrew the driver screw on the wheel with the traction tire.  Loosen the screw on the next wheel drive rod.

     2.  Slip a small screwdriver under the drive rod.  This gives you enough room to get the traction tire and two   

          tools  underneath it to move around.

     3.  Use the two hand made tools and your fingers to move the traction tire around and get in position.

     4.  Tighten the one screw, replace the other.  Done.

Bruce

Independent MTH Authorized Service Center Technician

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Dan Padova posted:

I'm not a fan of traction tires.  Wouldn't adding weight to locomotives, during the manufacturing process, eliminate the need for traction tires ?   Whether it's weight or traction tires, it seems to me that the street on the gears would be the same.  

Traction tire = cheaper than more weight or MagnaTraction.  ;D 

Mitch 

That's interesting.  So grooving a wheel and installing a traction tire is cheaper than having all the wheels the same, allowing factory workers to do alittle less thinking ?

Tinplate Art posted:

Traction tires are evil, period in ANY gauge! I even swapped out two drive wheel sets on my LCT Brute with a spare set from a 381E that I took apart for parts. After the changeout, it pulled the four Showroom cars just fine. Std gauge engines do NOT need those infernal things!

As I stated in my earlier post, I don't like traction tires.  However, I have never replaced a traction tire on any of my LGB locomotives.  Some of them are approaching twenty years of service.  I have replaced them on Aristocraft and USA Trains locos.  And when I had my last Lionel layout, over twenty-five years ago, I recall replacing some then on the MPC locos.  

In 1991, when I was getting into Large Scale, I purchased two packs of LGB traction tires.  Each a different size.  I still have those pages, unopened, stored in my parts drawers.  

Dan: The new LGB replacement tires are a yellow vinyl and NOT black like the original on my new old (never run) #414 analog sound croc. The drive axle design has an eccentric crank that goes into the wheel in a keyway by passing thru the frame so the drive wheel set HAS to be removed to more "easily" change out the tire! :-(

Never liked traction tires but they are easy to replace on most diesel engines. I have converted several MPC era engines to magnetraction axles and they work fine. The wheels need to be pulled and pressed on the magnetic axles, and the replacement or drilling/ honing of the axle bushings makes it a big job. With the steam engine I would not attempt to convert to magnetraction so the method above seems easiest. A problem with traction tires is that they sometimes slip on the wheel. A drop of crazy glue seems to help.

The LGB steamers are relatively easy to replace tires including the European mallets. The problems occur more with the outside frame locos.

OK Guys..Thanks for the help... I am going to try and order the parts ONE more thing I need to know wich side is left or right lol.Is the Fireman's side the left?And the Engineers side the right?

In US, engineer is on right side. Different in UK and Europe!

bruce benzie posted:

Traction tires are NOT that difficult to remove/install IF you have the proper tools and know the techniques.

You assume facts not in evidence Bruce.  Your simple technique for steam is only if the tire is on the right wheel.  The CC2S and the Cab Forward didn't cooperate with the "easy" location.

REAL engines, steam or diesel do not have rubber tires for traction !!

I think i now remember why i like magnatraction so much.

aussteve posted:

I think i now remember why i like magnatraction so much.

Not so good on Atlas track.

REAL train rack is STEEL !!

Tinplate Art posted:

Dan: The new LGB replacement tires are a yellow vinyl and NOT black like the original on my new old (never run) #414 analog sound croc. The drive axle design has an eccentric crank that goes into the wheel in a keyway by passing thru the frame so the drive wheel set HAS to be removed to more "easily" change out the tire! :-(

Interesting.  The tires I have are all a translucent slightly yellow type.  I don't recall ever seeing black tires on an LGB loco.  USA Trains, yes and I think Aristocraft, both have black tires.  I'm not sure about MTH however.  I've never purchased one of their large scale locomotives.

Most traction tires take their beating, stretching and getting blown off in a curve. The stresses of one side not being allowed to slip because of the inside rail of a curve being shorter then the outside rail takes its tole on them. These curve stresses wouldn't be an issue and there would still be plenty of traction if manufactures would only have a traction tire wheel on one side. Other then shelf life, imagine how much longer they would last. On diesels front trucks could be traction on one side and the rear truck could be on the other. Forum member Clem K brought this to my attention in a post on tires a few weeks ago and he is spot on. 

For what it's worth, I no longer replace those ****ed tires! On our layout, they serve no purpose, and we can still pull over 50 freight cars!

having to replace traction tires on the Vision Centipedes is a pain. The 2-10-10-2 was the worst out of the vision engines

Interestingly enow, my new-old MPC EP-5 has the traction tires only on one side.  They're still coming off, but this is probably because they're 30+ years old...  ;-) 

Mitch 

Dan: Your description is more apt than mine as they are more of a translucent slightly yellow. The original one on my #414 croc from about 2000 was definitely black and it literally peeled off. I initially did not have the LGB part and used a Lionel steam engine traction tire as a temporary fix and it worked until I got the LGB replacement.

Personally, haven't noticed any differences on some of my steamers were the replacement of traction tires is a pistol to replace. I just leave them off and cut the opposite side off without seeing a difference in starting, creeping, or pulling up to 25 cars.

John or  is there anyone that tried to use liquid electrical tape on the the wheels that have the tires by just putting on coats with a hobby brush? It would be work but you would have to worry about taking the wheels out of synch or bending drive parts or stripping out screw holes.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looking at my CC2S it seems ugly enough, you have to remove ALL the rods and linkage to get to the tires.  Since it's an articulated beast, you get to do that four times.  That's ugly enough for me.

Remove the second steam chest if you want a challange !

GRJ & RICK O-Thanks for the info on the parts I placed the order.My friends at my LHS are going to install them for me Nick

gunrunnerjohn posted:

bruce benzie posted:

Traction tires are NOT that difficult to remove/install IF you have the proper tools and know the techniques.

You assume facts not in evidence Bruce.  Your simple technique for steam is only if the tire is on the right wheel.  The CC2S and the Cab Forward didn't cooperate with the "easy" location.

John

Kinda makes you wonder why they chose THAT wheel for the traction tire!

Bob

"In US, engineer is on right side. Different in UK and Europe!"

Depends - Russian engineers/drivers sit on the same side as those in the US. But, on their steamers, at least, they push the throttle to increase speed, whereas in N.America we pull it. I'd say pushing makes more sense. Saw this recently on a video. 

"I am going to try and order the parts ONE more thing I need to know wich side is left or right lol.Is the Fireman's side the left?And the Engineers side the right?"

Well, which are the Right and Left sides of your automobile...?

RRDOC posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

bruce benzie posted:

Traction tires are NOT that difficult to remove/install IF you have the proper tools and know the techniques.

You assume facts not in evidence Bruce.  Your simple technique for steam is only if the tire is on the right wheel.  The CC2S and the Cab Forward didn't cooperate with the "easy" location.

John

Kinda makes you wonder why they chose THAT wheel for the traction tire!

Bob

Most of the loco weight is on those front wheels. The leading set of drivers don't support the boiler on that model so the steam chest is the heaviest point. That's why Lionel puts the traction tires on the leading drivers on Articulated locos most of the time.

MTH does it differently with their steam loco models because they are physically heavier than Lionel's. They can afford to put the traction tire any where they want.

Tractive effort is the word of the day kids.........

The small Weaver Pennsy A5 is also an issue to change tires.  Some of the rods and timing gear are solder in place.  Removal of the shell, and steam valves, allowed for front tire replacement.

Whatever happened to using Bullfrog Snot, or silicone?

Fred

Fred Brenek posted:

Whatever happened to using Bullfrog Snot, or silicone?

I hope it's gone forever.

The traction tire on the rear engine of my JLC H7 is likewise very difficult to replace as it is on the driver behind the valve gear. With moderate running, it was throwing off this tire about once a year. Ordered new tires from Lionel and the new ones were about twice as thick as the originals. Its been about two years and it hasn't thrown one of the newer ones.

Ken