I'am sick of them, what do we do?
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Well, until we can get Lionel to start sanding the rails with miniature sand, I guess we are stuck with rubber bands.
Just kidding, but I do see the guys having problems with traction tires also seem to be the guys who use way too much smoke fluid. Maybe just a coincidence.
Charlie
Stop buying trains. Seriously. The manufacturers know better. US Hobbies (2-rail O scale) had things figured out by the mid-1960's. When MTH brought out their HO product line, all of the steam locos had replaceable wheels and axles from the very beginning, with a non-tired pair of wheels in the box. American Models (may they rest in peace) S gauge steam locos were also made with interchangeable wheels and axles.
But in 3-rail O, product development basically ceased after the 700E in 1937. Captive-axle construction. Cast-in gearbox with no way to change the gear ratio. Chipped driving wheel? Worn bearings?? You'll need a puller and a press. Oh, and a master machinist with a surface plate to make sure everything goes back together in quarter. Fast-forward 50 years, and MTH, Lionel are still building them that way. People keep buying them because, (A) they don't know better, or (B) there's just no alternative.
If the current inventory doesn't sell and has to be blown out, maybe this will send a signal to the major brands to invest in new (long overdue) chassis tooling. I would go for a "hybrid," but just the opposite of what Lionel did. I want a "scale-like" chassis and drivetrain under a die-cast body. Then we would have a choice. Tires or no tires. 100 MPH toy train express, or NMRA switching speeds. Everybody wins!
I already have one of almost every steam loco I've ever wanted. The only way a builder will open my wallet is to build a "better mousetrap." Now who's going to be first!?
TED S: A logical suggestion, which of course, will be ignored! 😐
MONK posted:I'am sick of them, what do we do?
Why, buy trains with magna-traction, of course
My 65-year old locos' magne-tractions are shot. At least I can replace traction tires.
Traction tires, at best, are a PITA! In most cases, the weight of diecast or even weighted plastic locos would provide adequate traction without those @$%& tires.
RJR posted:My 65-year old locos' magne-tractions are shot. At least I can replace traction tires.
Odd. I've never even heard of this before. What kind of track do you use? Are you sure that these engines had the magna-traction feature (not all postwar Lionel's did)? Some late '50's cheapened diesels came with only single axel magna-traction that was not very strong to begin with, but it is still evidences itself on those that I have.
I have over 60 postwar Lionel engines, all with magna-traction, none are "shot", many pick up track sections when I lift them from my display shelves
I store mine on traditional tinplate track (but I have no idea how they were stored by previous owners), I wonder if this makes/made a difference?
MONK posted:I'am sick of them, what do we do?
ORGANIZE! We could use this "Topic" or a social media page as our website and share the address with our right thinking fellow travelers. Manufacturers pay attention to numbers, so, a few of us howling in the wilderness, from time to time, isn't going to do anything other than make us feel better for a few minutes. We need to make a big stir!
As has been noted, above, 2 rail O Scale doesn't need traction tires. Its the same stuff on the same rails and some of their rails are even skinnier than ours giving their untired wheels even less to grip.
Having given this issue some thought, it has occurred to me that traction tires must have resulted from the high cost of magnetraction, the introduction of non-magnetic rails and the pre-TMCC/DCS inability to "MU" equipment reliably. I have vivid memories of working to get two or three locomotives' E-units in sync only to have one hit a rusty or dirty spot and put me back to zero... again and again. I am convinced that this is also the origin of the non-powered, "dummy" locomotive.
My solution has been to avoid Lionel, Atlas and MTH RailKing locomotives and stick with MTH Premier diesels of the PS 3.0+ variety. The ability to change out wheel and axle sets and the availability of both Hi-Rail and Scale Wheel replacements make MTH the winner in my book. Being a Chicago Great Western (CGW) fan, I was overjoyed to see MTH produce a line of "Scale Wheels" F3s and I bought 'em all. On the other hand, Lionel's 2019-2 catalog lists CGW F7s but I won't be buying them, no matter how much it hurts, because they'll have traction tires and moveable pilots. You can see that I've been spoiled.
That leads to my next related issue: With few exceptions, MTH doesn't manufacture switch engines in their premier line. Both Lionel and MTH ALCo S-2 locomotives do have interchangeable wheelsets, and there may be others, but I haven't encountered them. MTH has disappointed me by not offering their PA/B, E6, DL, etc. with interchangeable wheelsets; even the exquisite little 44 Tonners have traction tires.
JOIN OR DIE!
O scale operators don’t try to climb 7% grades. Ogauge guys do so traction tired locos are the easiest way to take care of that.
And MTH has found the perfect answer: Choices.
Lionelski posted:MONK posted:I'am sick of them, what do we do?
Why, buy trains with magna-traction, of course
Works really well on Atlas track. 
Lionelski: One is a 1950 #736 & the other a l954 or so 624. I converted the latter to PS2 but the magnets are so weak that in can't pull more than a few cars. I essentially us it now to pull a track cleaner.
I had converted the 736 to PS2; the ability to run at low speeds highlighted its mechanical problems which neither I nor a Lionel guru could diagnose and I restored the E-unit. But it's pulling ability was niuch less than when it was new.
The fact is that magnets do weaken. I have heard it said that the magnets stand up better if the loco is left on tubular track with metal ties than on track with insulated outer rails, such as Gargraves. I note in passing that when not in use, horseshoe magnets should be left with a piece of iron across the poles.
As for traction tires, I have two Weaver locos I bought about 1992. They have seen heavy use and, having been converted to PS2, continue to see regular use, and they still have the original traction tires. I have newer locos on which I have had to spend the few minutes to replace traction tires.
Traction tires are a problem? I run my trains a lot and rarely need to change a tire. I have an MTH PRR Atlantic that I believe was manufactured in 2000. I replaced the first tire about five years ago and the second last week.
The tires are generally easy to replace, too. It can get a little tricky with steam engines if you have to remove and replace the driving rods to install the tire. Be sure to note the position or photo the rods before you remove them so they can be re-assembled in the proper position. Rods out of position will jam!
Here are pics of my 736 steamer and 613 switcher holding onto O27 track sections with their magna-traction
Attachments
Images (2)
romiller49 posted:O scale operators don’t try to climb 7% grades. Ogauge guys do so traction tired locos are the easiest way to take care of that.
Yup. That's pretty much it. 
And don't forget, sharp curves aren't overly helpful for locomotive traction, either. 
Have a Lionel 2314 with traction tires on rear wheel, during a pull the tires came off, I cleaned the steel wheel with acetone, then using a straw from a can of solvent, dripped super glue on the grooved area of the wheel and got the tire on. Works fine. when I need to remove tire , will use acetone to remove superglue. I also use purple locktite on the eccentric screws after cleaning out the threads on the wheels. works great. Purple Locktite is the weakest type of Locktite available
Traction tires on my MTH locomotives last many years. I run short consists at moderate speeds on O-72 and O-54 curves, all of which tend to prolong tire life. It's easy to change tires on MTH diesels but more of a nuisance on steam engines, in which case I'm more concerned about damaging the engine while changing the tires - but that hasn't happened yet. If they were offered, I would buy 3-rail engines without traction tires. I don't like the grooved wheels or the tires...
MELGAR
MY club runs gargraves track, magna trac does not work on this type of track. the problem is that the coefficient of friction between steel wheels and metal track is low, the rubber on the wheels has a much better COF and actually gets compressed providing a better footprint for torque to be transfer to the track, much like a Auto tire. A rubber tire locomotive will do a higher grade than a postwar steel wheel locomotive, I have seen real steam locomotives spin wheels, have you ever seen a diesel do so, i doubt it, the same with o gauge locomotives. Yes I don't like rubber tires but its something we have to put up with to pull our trains.
I like both Magnetraction and traction tires.
I have about 10 MTH Railking Proto 1 engines, all with traction tires. I bought most of them between 15 and 25 years ago. I replaced all these traction tires only once, which was last year. I called MTH, and sent them an email providing the identification number of each locomotive, and paid the fee for the tires by credit card. I received the tires in the mail in a few days. My recollection is that the fee was about $1 per tire, which isn't cheap, but still well worth it, IMO, because the trains run great. I found it to be easy to replace the tires on both my steamers and diesel engines.
I very rarely clean the track on my layout, maybe once in 5 years, and still rarely have a traction tire problem. This past year I frequently run a dehumidifier in my basement where I have my layout, which may help preserve the traction tires.
I think traction tires are better than Magnetraction for providing pulling power.
I keep all of my Lionels with Magnetraction (15 to 20 Postwar locomotives) on Lionel Tubular track at all times. I think that may help preserve the Magnetraction, but some of these locomotives from the 1950s have lost some or all of their Magnetraction; others still have strong Magnetraction. I don't know why this is so. I want to preserve the Magnetraction to the maximum extent. If you know how best to do this, please explain how on this thread. Arnold
I have read many articles on keeping the magnet power.I have many postwar locomotives that were stored in boxes with out keepers like a track which seem to have full power, i believe the axles are the "keepers". I understand some has SS axles which do not transmit the power I believe those are with the AL frames Also I have 4 Rock Island locomotives with magnatrac built in 1987.... full power . Magnets can be had at The Train Tender. its simple to replace them. Some of the postwar locomotives have the magnets in the AL frame those are a problem to replace, have not replaced those. if you do not heat or strike the magnets most will keep their power, also do not drill on them either thats why some are staked in the frame or held in pockets in the frame.
When they dry rot and fall off as has need the case with every k line loco there has been no need to replace them and no adverse impact on performance. So far all my WBB, lionel and atlas locks have not dropped a tire. When they do so what.
I have some 4% grade and traction tires are needed.
Never really have had an issue with traction tires. When they fail they aren't hard to change.
I wish more stuff had backdriveable gears though.
Unless heated to a high temperature or hit with a mechanical shock; magnets tend to loose their magnetism at a rate of 1% per TEN years. Most postwar engines should be down to 92%-94% by now.
There may have been some less than stellar magnatraction parts when new, but generally they should hold up quite nicely.
I've never seen any depreciation on my postwar, MPC or LTI magnatraction units.
Some of my prewar engines have lost their magnatraction completely, (sorry I couldn't resist that one).
Back driveable gears? Some locomotives with slant worm drives can rotate from the wheels, some with can motors set at 90 degrees from the axle can not. it puts a significant stress on the gears when rotating the motor from the wheels.
Doug, most Lionel Legacy stuff specifically mentions back driveable gears. They're for a good reason, when you MU multiple units, any small speed variations are better accommodated if they're not fighting against each other.
Thanks. Interesting comment, don't have any MUs club does however but never worked on them.
The tires on my two K-Line engines are still original. I'm guessing K-Line purchased tires from the same sources as Lionel and MTH, so there should be no significant difference in their longevity.
aussteve posted:Some of my prewar engines have lost their magnatraction completely, (sorry I couldn't resist that one).
LOL!
aussteve posted:Unless heated to a high temperature or hit with a mechanical shock; magnets tend to loose their magnetism at a rate of 1% per TEN years. Most postwar engines should be down to 92%-94% by now.
There may have been some less than stellar magnatraction parts when new, but generally they should hold up quite nicely.
I've never seen any depreciation on my postwar, MPC or LTI magnatraction units.
Some of my prewar engines have lost their magnatraction completely, (sorry I couldn't resist that one).
Dale M did some research on restoring magnetraction...
Tires have a life span ,used or on the shelf, I keep about 6-10 of each in stock, Train tender is a good source for tires, there is a good reference for tires by MTH, its on the internet. it does not usually pay to buy tires on the internet too expensive and may be old. I find MTH tires of better quality than Lionel. I use a small screwdriver and a hook set I got at HF to put the tires on the wheel. Make sure the tires on one wheel do not touch the middle wheel next to it. need to see a space.
MONK posted:I'am sick of them, what do we do?
...switch to HO or N scale...
Mark in Oregon
With solid axles, wheels going through any curve are going to place a lateral stress on at least one tire if not both. Would it reduce the stress and the related wear on the tires if only one wheel per axle had a tire? The bare wheel would be the one which slips. John in Lansing, ILL
Probably not, assuming you want one tire on each rail, because the loco axles are geared together.
rattler21 posted:With solid axles, wheels going through any curve are going to place a lateral stress on at least one tire if not both. Would it reduce the stress and the related wear on the tires if only one wheel per axle had a tire? The bare wheel would be the one which slips. John in Lansing, ILL
Yup, that is correct. And if multiple axles on a single loco each have a traction tire, they should ALL be on one side or the other, i.e. on the same rail. Otherwise, they will still fight each other.
Case in point - I have discovered that my Lionel 0-8-0 switcher (inexpensive train set switcher, purchased at a train show) only has ONE traction tire total on one wheel. And a 4-4-0 General loco recently acquired also has only one traction tire on one drive wheel. No, they're not missing a traction tire on the other side. Each loco only has one grooved drive wheel that accepts a traction tire.
And yet, my Lionel LC+ 4-6-2 Pacific and 2-8-2 Mikado locos both have a driver axle with traction tires on BOTH sides. Not sure why. Maybe Lionel figures these locos will be used on larger radius curved track, which should lessen the slipping necessary for smoother operation on tighter curves?
I don't know for sure. But at any rate, all of my locos seem to run good on my layout, which has O42 minimum curves on up to O84 maxium curves. So in my case, I guess I'm lucky.
If all on one side non-derailing switches will not work and loco is susceptible to having dead spots of groundZ
RJR posted:If all on one side non-derailing switches will not work and loco is susceptible to having dead spots of groundZ
Steamers only need ONE driver with a traction tire. Diesels really only need ONE wheel on EACH TRUCK with a traction tire. But both traction-tired wheels should be on the left side of the loco, or the right side of the loco (NOT one on the left, and one on the right). Which is the point I was trying to make. Which would still allow non-derailing switches to work properly. Understand?
Reality break:
I have a photo of a Reading coal train on the steep grade (degree undetermined) to Locust Summit. Twenty three loaded hoppers, a K-class 2-10-2 pulling, a K-class 2-10-2 pushing. We employ steeper grade on mnay model railroads. Thus, traction tires.
I have an PRR Atlantic E6 Lionel 6-84942 that bumps over the fastrack switches. Wiggles and bumps up and down a bit. As best I can determine, it is the traction tires being pulled slightly sideways and then dropping off over the switch parts. The tires stick out from their grooves vertically a bit. Sound like that's it?
