train room humidity

AT 85%, you DO NOT NEED A HUMIDIFIER!  You do need a DEHUMIDIFIER!  Ideally, it should be 35 to 50% max.  If your temperature drops by a couple of degrees, it will rain in your train room.

 

Air that is saturated with water is at a relative humidity of 100%.  Air that contains only 50% of the water required to be fully saturated is at a relative humidity of 50%.  Similarly, if the temperature of a volume of air that is saturated is reduced, water comes out of the air as a fog or water droplets.  The “dew point” is the temperature at which air becomes fully saturated.  In weather terms, this is when it rains.

I set my dehumidifier at 55 and leave it on from spring to fall.

 

 

Paul

I remove humidity.  Over 50% worries me.  Rust forms on bare steel above about 65%. 

dehumidifier, duh.  what I meant.

I've tried to run one. Had bad luck with them so far. In the 10 years we've been here, I tried 3 different brands from cheap to good & when the last $250 dollar unit we had almost set my house on fire, I gave up. It's usually about 65 - 70 % down there naturally with a little bounce either way depending on the weather so I've chosen to live with it because of the unreliable nature of dehumidifier products in general. 

My layout is in the basement with poured concrete walls. I have one running 3 of the 4 seasons and set it at 45-50%.  Kansas City winters are dry so it's off for the season.

AHH, good.  Now you're on the right track.  Are you in the middle of the Everglades?  The humidity in your house should not be this high.  At this level, it is very conducive to mold and other bad things.  All your fabrics and wallboard will absorb this high level of moisture and things will begin to sag and warp.  I would try to investigate why it is so high.  Do you have a basement?  Is it always this high?  Are your rain gutters working properly?  You may need a professional do an inspection to determine the cause for such a high reading.  This could be serious.  Have there been any sink holes in your area?  I am not joking.  It really needs to be looked at.  It goes much farther that a bit of rusted track.  Bob Severin

Jacksonville, Florida

I have noticed many people close off their heat vents to the basement which causes humidity rise.  It is worth a few bucks a month to allow heated air down there.   Dehumidifiers will use more energy than that. 

Well, Bob, I live in the Mobile, Alabama area, 4 - 5 blocks from Mobile Bay and about 20 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico. So, I imagine that we equal anything that Jacksonville has in the way of humidity. 

 

I have a separate 12X24 "train building" in the back yard, insulated, window unit A/C

(not on right now, of course - it's cool and rainy, supposed to hit the mid-20's this week),

space heater. None of it on when I'm not out there. 20-plus years old. Full of locomotives,

all brands, mostly command control. GG track. The building is well-shaded most of the day. 

 

Why am I going on and on (well, I do that naturally, anyway)? Because I have no de-humidifier, and never have. My GG (old, steel, not stainless steel) track and switches

are reliable and never get anything but a light film of rust, and not that when I run regularly. My equipment has been very reliable (not 100%, but I have a sizable fleet), and

it is out there 24/7. Maybe basements are worse, but I've never owned one. I do think

that the humidity thing is over-played, sometimes. If you have an obvious problem

with it, then steps must be taken. But living in the South "below the salt line" (as I do) is not an automatic problem. See if it comes up; if not, good.

 

Directly on the beach? Oh, yes, get that de-humidifier.

Do you live near a lake or a river?  What is the mean or average temperature of your basement?  Does the basement floor seem or show evidence of dampness?  65% to 70% may be normal in high summer months, but surely not in winter in New York.  It sounds like you may be over a relatively high water table that is seeping upward to keep your basement at high humidity levels.  

 

As to the failure of your dehumidifiers, I would not give up entirely.  There are good ones on the market, for not a lot of money.  When you had them, did you maintain them.  Newer models have filters that need to be cleaned.  I have never had one go bad.  Some work better than others, certainly, but the operating principles are tried and true, and have been used successfully for years.  

 

Bob S.

Once you go subterranean, it is a different animal.  At 8', here in the US, the ground temperature averages 55 degrees.  Humidity at 55 degrees can rise dramatically as the temperature decreases, hence the need for dehumidification.  Buildings built above ground are influenced by all weather conditions, sun, rain, wind, relative humidity.  Also, how tight the building is constructed plays a big difference on interior humidity.  A very tightly constructed building will tend to hold humidity if there is no ventilation system designed to exhaust some of the building's air.  Then, there is an need for fresh air to be introduced to make up for the air being exhausted.  It's a science in and of itself.  

 

High humidity can present all kinds of problems, with the structure, with the health of the occupants and relative life of many of the furnishings.  No one wants musty smelling furniture because of high humidity.  

 

Bob Anson should get this investigated.

 

Bob S.

If you get a dehumidifier... I recommend going big. I've placed 2 in my basement. In the Midwest they mostly run in the summer.

My advice is measure the humidity, and if you need to dehumidify the air do so.  Everyone's house is different, as it location, style of house, building materials could be a factor.

 

I live in Maryland with electric heat in a split foyer style house (eight steps up to the main floor of the house and eight steps down to the full basement).

 

With electric heat, we end up humidifying the hear air (have a humidifier on the heater blower).  In the warmer months, we run a dehumidifier in both the basement and the upstairs. 

 

Depending on your square footage, one dehumidifier may do the job and if not you might need a second one.

 

Jim

if you buy a new dehumidifier, make sure you buy one that specifically states that it can be used in the basement.

 

-Pete

Jacksonville is a swamp, not the Everglades but part of the estuary for the Okefenokee.

Though we don't normally use air conditioning October thru May, here in Central Florida we have a humidistat usually set at 65% hooked up to the air conditioner. I know 65% is still kind of high but set any lower and the air conditioner would never get a rest. I find the best way to protect trains and equipment in this environment is to run them as often as possible.

I run this old sears dehumidifier in the "Man Cave", this is what works for my train room. Goes well with the old trains. I did have to repaint the finish.

 

Is there really such a thing as a non-basement safe dehumidifier?  Reason for asking is that last year when I was shopping for a new one I never saw one that said it wasn't safe for basement use.  More curious as to what would be different about one. 

My issues with dehumidifiers had nothing to do with proper maintenance, basement applications or anything else. They were all do to mechanical & electrical failures of poorly made, mass produced junk products from off brand ones to good ones like Kenmore. The Kenmore is the one that nearly started a fire when the switch panel melted itself down inside the hosing without tripping a breaker. I came down to do something & smelled it cooking off. The other ones just quit on me. Average lifespan of about 2 years.



> On Jan 4, 2015, at 3:39 PM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

GARY!!!??  A repaint???  Sacrilege!!!  It's resale value will never be the same.  You know better.  

I bought a relatively inexpensive Danby at Bed Bath and Beyond about 5 years ago and it runs flawlessly! 

 

Paul

A dehumidifier specifically rated for basement is a better buy since it will continue to draw moisture out at lower or colder temperatures. These are recommended for basements located in cooler climates and usually last longer than dehumidifiers not rated for basement usage.  

 

-Pete

Up here in the north, our humidity this time of year is less than 35.  Right now I have a humidifier running to bring humidity up to 40.  

 

Calgary, AB  usually always dry air.

Gentlemen,

   I use an Air Purifier and a Dehumidifier both and they do help keep the layout nice.

I try to keep the humidity below 46% and clean the air purifier about 3 times a month, especially when the Christmas layout is up.

PCRR/Dave

85% sounds about right. At least Jax gets a bit of a sea breeze. When I finish my garage I plan to run a dehumidifier or run a vent off of the AC plenum and open a vent for return air to keep the humidity down. 

I discovered rust starting on some turnouts and when I checked the humidity it was over 75%!  Installed a dehuidifier with a tank and pump with the hose going into the trainroom bathroom toilet, so I didn't have to empty the pump tank all the time.

Now the humidity averages 48% and it was the end of all rust problems.  Run it 24/7.

Also have a big box fan with a 20" furnace filter taped to the input side to minimize the dust problem.  Works great.

 

Anything over 60% is asking for rust.  One begins to see it on unpainted track on ROSS turnouts first, then on wheelsets and axles.

 

Makes the heart stop when you first find it!

55% rh will forstall any mold. I like to see it at 45% myself. There are better deumidifiers out there han the ones most see offered.

construction of homes has incresed humidity levels in he last few decades.

First, they are built much tighter than before to save energy. Secondly many builders do not recognize the value of air exchangers. Ofte I see insulation installed poorly. This is all done to save energy but results in poor living atmospheres.

If you do not pay attention to RH, you will have problems of rust, mold, or worse.

Fred

I live in Jacksonville Florida.
Yes it's humid.
I DONT us a de humidifier.
But my trains, my layout, my house, and my family are all healthy and working great.
If you do use a de humidifier around here, good luck getting it below 65%. Your de humidifier will never quit running. Not even in winter.

I have also had issues with certain dehumidifiers  failing prematurely. But I always buy an extended warranty (something I ordinarily consider a rip-off). You can get the price on those down pretty low if you initially tell them you're not interested. And it pays off. If your dehumidifier fails, they'll replace it. 

 

Roger

I'm in Cleveland where it can be really humid from mid-May to late September.  During that time, I run a dehumidifier at 50 or 55% and drain it directly into my sump pump "crock".

 

Also useful are one or two small fans to keep the air moving.

 

I've followed two very simple rules in my dehumidifier selection process:  1) stick with something UL listed and 2) even if you don't buy from Amazon, check out their product reviews.  They're shockingly useful/accurate.

Let me preface this by mentioning that I am an Engineer and am responsible for HVAC conditions for a company that 100% of you have heard of. As for Humidity, there is no such thing per se. What you're talking about it Relative Humidity. This is a function of Dry Bulb temperature and Saturated Dew Point.  The colder the air, the more water molecules it will hold. If you take an air sample from Arizona and take it to Antarctica, the relative humidity will go from very low (Arizona) to higher at Antarctica . This occurs simply by dropping the dry bulb temperature.

 

Relative humidity that is too high, will absolutely promote corrosion. However, relative humidity that is too low can be detrimental to your electronics. For creature comfort, in general  ~ 73F @ 45% RH tends to be a happy number.

 

Gilly

What's next, the psychometric chart?  Run a dehumidifier, and the (relative) humidity will decrease.  Warm the air, and the relative humidity will decrease.  Bob S. 

Actually you are spot-on....  This is on par with going to Boot Camp and referring to your M-16 as a "Gun".

 

Gilly

Humidity? WHAT'S THAT?

 

I wish I had some so all my traction tires wouldn't rot out and need replaced all the time. Although it would turn all the dust into mud.

Yeah, I know.  I've done some time in the HVAC trenches too.  

Good Grief

No basement should be without one.  As for setting your basement on fire, you do need to clean them once in a while and keep them where there is open space around them.  Actually, I don't know what's in a dehumidifier to burn.

.....

Dennis

Here in Amarillo, you don't get rid of humidity - you add it.

They can catch on fire when there's an electrical failure of the internal parts. The switch panal melting into the front face of the unit had nothing to do with any cleaning. There's a 20 year old refrigerator running down there right next to where the dehumidifiers were & it's never been cleaned. This was some sort of internal short of a bad part that fried the control panel. The other 2 units failed mechanically & had nothing to do with cleaning. One leaked out all it's refridgerant & one had a compressor pump stop working. All 3 were different brands & all 3 were unreliable. After spending probably close to $700 in about 8 or 10 years, I'm done with them, they just don't hold up. Not sure if it's just a run of bad luck or if these things are just cheaply made or what but after that last one I've had it. Can't trust those things.