Tranquil Hollow RR: Looking for Input

You are off to a great start. Make sure you can reach everything. With track, I feel that less track/ more scenery is better. 2/3 of my layout only has one track going through the scenes.  Keep posting updates. JohnA

Thank you John that’s an excellent point. Also, there is space all around, between the wall and the bench work.

Your wish list seems extensive given your space.  Engine servicing areas take up a great deal of space.  Running 3 trains plus a pcc loop plus a trolley, well you know, it will be tight.  You may end up with a bowel of spaghetti layout.  I would buy ken oscales book, look at what he has done and modify for you space as needed.

Can you fit in those aisleways between layout sections?

Yes, everything is within my reach.

necrails, you are right, a bowl of spaghetti is not what I want. For an engine facility I was not contemplating a turn table but every railroad needs something along those lines. Two tracks would be acceptable with block control.

Jay,

Consider bridging across the entrance of those aisles with dependable bascule bridges and go for 072 as a main line at a minimum.

If you ramp up and go over  you will double the run.

If you build it with a dual track main line and go up over for a folded "8" you will easily be able to at least four trains at the same time.

I would consider widening the aisles to 20"-24" if possible.  15" may seem like a good idea now, but not so good in the future.

Rusty

First, with your current benchwork design, you have no chance of running O72 curves, even through an oval on the main portion of your plan.  Your maximum width is 6' (72"), but to run O72 with clearance for engine or passenger car overhang, you would need at least 7' (84").  Second, given the width of your middle finger (of the 3 fingers), you can't even run O54 curves consistently through this layout unless you just run some stub-end tracks down that middle finger.  Finally, I agree with Rusty; at 15" aisle width, you and anyone else walking down that aisle (you won't be passing anybody, though) will have to penguin walk sideways to move.  And attempting repairs or working in such tight quarters will be just miserable.

I may regret saying this, but this is a classic example of putting the cart before the horse.  Construct a layout plan to fit your space first, then build benchwork to suit.  Squeezing a plan on to benchwork you've already built will be a very daunting task.

Chuck

Your input is greatly appreciated Tom, Rusty, and Chuck. Chuck you are correct in your assessment that the cart did get before the horse. However, in my defense, I had a plan(s) in mind that did not translate into reality. The aisles, while tight, are workable as I have a moveable step that I can use to lean in. Their purpose is primarily for maintenance and not viewing. I can get 54 degree curves on the outside and 42 on an inner loop. I have been contemplating removing the middle peninsula and perhaps extending the width of the remaining sides.
Again, thank you very much for taking the time to consider my plight.

@Tranquil Hollow RR  Sorry Jay - I totally agree with Chuck.  I think you would be better off taking the benchwork apart and starting over.   There are enough planners on this forum who can help pull a track plan together for you. Given your space you will also need to move away from a walk in to get the 072 dia curves. You will never regret having the big curves even if you are not going to run big iron. I also agree with Tom Tee on the lift ups. I got rid of my walk in due to limitations on track layout possibilities along with small space and ended up being able to have 072 curves and 3 lift out bridges to access the center of my layout.

Since its been a year - throw some track down in a couple of loops and run some trains while the plan comes  together.   

Tranquil Hollow sounds like it needs some verticality so you can have a "hollow" on the layout. Configured as is you are either flat or have to cut holes in the decking. Looks like you already have the foam risers, but you could simply build the sub-road bed to the desired grade.

I would get rid of the center portion to give yourself the luxury of sitting in a comfortable chair to operate. Second, widen the bottom portion of the remaining

extensions to run 72 inch or 80 inch super elevated or canted curves. Sometimes less is more.

I run an around the wall layout just for that reason. One can still add a lot of detail .

This side is only 18 inches including the road.

This side is 22 inches with the road.

@Rusty Traque posted:

I would consider widening the aisles to 20"-24" if possible.  15" may seem like a good idea now, but not so good in the future.

Rusty

I agree , 15:" is not practical

Thank you Ron and your layout looks impressive. Currently there is a a decent  amount of viewing space upon entering the room. I have been thinking about removing the middle and bumping out  a gentle curve to either side of the layout to change the geometry of the bench work away from the straight angles. However, I realize that I will have to test it on a computer program.

Highly recommend SCARM for computer track planning purposes, but it o0nly runs in Windows.  It is free to download and try out, and if you like it, it's relatively inexpensive and includes multi-gauge, multi-vendor track libraries in its price.

Chuck

Jay, are you located anywhere near Philly?

I’m Philly born and raised and now living in Lebanon county. We regularly make it back to the Philly and Bucks county area.

Jay,

Next time down this way hit me up for a visit.  I would be glad to show you first hand how to make easy build outs and cut outs with curved fascia to accommodate genuine 1:1 full size typical 0 gauge waists in your close aisles yet comfortably provide for 0-72" curves.

Do all you can to utilize 0-72" curves.  That will leave the door open for anything in the future.

About 20 years ago when I was actively building bench work,  OGR did a product review on how I provided for 0-72 curves on a 4' X 8' platform.

Contact info in profile.

Tom

@Tom Tee posted:

...About 20 years ago when I was actively building bench work,  OGR did a product review on how I provided for 0-72 curves on a 4' X 8' platform.

Tom, that's intriguing.  Do you happen to know which OGR issue showed how you provided for O-72 curves on a 4' x 8' platform?

Thank you Tom and I will be taking you up on that offer. As Steve mentioned, I would like to review that edition.

Back then I was making bulbous symmetrical and asymmetrical end caps to accommodate 0-72" curves.  These modules attached to 4' X 8' platforms and permitted running larger engines and cars with the simple addition of a switch added at each corner to run off to the large sweeping 180 degree plus return curve.

Not sure of the year.  I do remember it to be a product announcement or review, not one of my ads.  Some where around early to  mid 2000s.

I found the most success in doing local shows.  Magazine response was very good but it proved awkward to service clients in the manner which I preferred.   I did ship to the West coast but I like to micro manage the set up.

Since moving, closing shop, selling my molds and dropping my web site I took my cue from Matt Jackson and seek to share my experience and insights online.

Thanks Tom I will search the editions in that time frame. Today I was standing in my room pondering possibilities and I thought about adding a curved area that would extend out. But your symmetrical endcap would be the term.

I seem to remember that the article was center right on a left hand facing page.

One of the steps I would consider with your aisles would be to selectively cut back  into otherwise unused real estate to increase aisle capacity.  An example here is in an existing  8' X 8' peninsula that needed access.   Repositioning some legs and  using a Bosch jig saw I performed a natural shaped "water way".

Pond & waterfall to provide sourceStool & lift bridge clear nicely       

So, you are looking for input...

Something I found helpful in layout planning and construction is to consider the balance between themes and the manner in which you wish to present them.

Some  like Pelle Soeborg go full natural with minimal trackage emphasizing scenery, others like George Sellius go for tight urban detail, many seek small towns, communities, ceiling challenging tall buildings, circus settings, etc, etc.  No emphasis   better than others, it is just what you want.

Personally, considering the overall size of 0 scale and the resulting space desired / needed,  I find angle corners and picture frame style straight edge benchwork lacking in efficiency of space utilization.

On my own RR I purposed to bypass industrial, urban or community scenes.  Considering my limited space and size of my modeling scale they simply took too much real estate.  Instead, I choose to only use scenes and structures that directly support the RR and it's purposes.  Following that I organically developed a track plan then built the benchwork with only the RR in view.   Much like prototype construction of an evolving branch line RR, I overcame or made obstacles as they were encountered or needed.

If the track went around a curve the benchwork went around a curve.  If I needed a station and public delivery REA  track the benchwork bumped out in that area alone then shrunk back to the right of way.  If the track went across a bridge the benchwork stopped or has a steep precipitous decline.

Using quality plywood decking, a brad gun, layout strips of Masonite or lath for cosmetic curves and polyurethane adhesive anyone can have easily formed sturdy benchwork which can snake around however you want and is easily adapted to accommodate needed bumpouts as the RR matures.

Another big consideration, basic layout style, island or around the wall.  IMO nothing beats around the wall for availability of wide curves.  A curve can not be too large in my world.

As a further consideration, no aisle behind the around the wall style benchwork, that only works to reduce the run along the  adjacent wall.  Most everything needs be accessible from the front fascia for me.

All just my opinion.

Tom- that’s a very well-written response.  As I have mentioned, the newer parts of my layout echo your around the wall “layout supports the railroad “ philosophy.  The earliest section of my layout is 4 feet wide, and is a pain to reach/maintain.  There is also much more area to  have to  “fill” with costly scenery .  My most recent section is  2 feet wide, as I have learned as I progress.  Also , on a narrower layout, the trains are closer  for viewing up close .  These ideas have worked well for me . JohnA

Thank you again Tom for taking the time to address my issues. Your insights and experience could easily make for a very valuable book. In the past I have commented that your bench work is amazing and it looks like fine furniture. Unfortunately, I don’t have any where near your level of expertise; nor, the necessary tools. My original goals were to have the maximum amount of operational/scenic area while allowing for access all around. In hindsight I thought I was moving on the correct course but obviously that’s not the case. As it is said, “the best laid plans…”.

Nonetheless, again thanks and appreciation to you and everyone else who took the time to share their insights.

Jay,  Looking forward to your visit.  You will see the simplicity behind the wizard's curtain.  You obviously can work well with wood.  Given some bendable plywood you will be able to make what ever shape decking you need.  It is just a matter of thinking outside of the box.

There in lies my problem 🤫

If you use Ross O-54 track for an inner loop with one of their fitter pieces between the switches connecting the inner and outer loops and use Ross O-64 track for the outside loop, you can fit both on a 6 foot wide tabletop as I did on my last layout. 

The "fitter pieces" helped to make the curve clearance work perfectly for my locomotives (e.g., K-Line switcher, MTH FP-45 & ES44AC).

Here's a view at the other end of the layout where you can see the "fitter" piece between the two switches.  The fitter piece is the connecting track piece with no switch guardrails.  This was the key to getting the right curve clearance to fit O-54 and O-64 on a 6 X 15 foot layout.

I was considering an O-72 outer loop for my next layout, but since I'm not interested in the behemoth locomotives like Big Boys, I may stick with the O-64 outer loop. My arm's length is one issue as I found reaching to the halfway point on this 6 foot layout was a challenge, even on a step stool or step ladder.

I hope this info is helpful.

P.S.  I used Ross Roadbed with homasote and 3/4" plywood.  If you use Gargraves # 4 3/4" screws, they won't hardly show on the ties and will not puncture through both the roadbed and homasote to the plywood.  I never had the "rolling thunder" sound problem from screws going from the track through to the plywood.

Thank you very much Pat and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your insights. Your layout does look very nice and it looks fun. Will the Ross track fit with O tubular?

Jay, I just found your thread.  I read your perspective and lots of good advice from others.  I see the responses quickly stopped at the end of May.  I'll simply ask what is the status of your layout plans now?  Were you able to visit Tom Tee yet?  Have you made any changes?  I know it is summer, and lots of folks don't get much done on their layouts due to outdoor activities.  In a couple words; What's up now? 

Hi Jay- I also just found your thread courtesy of Mark's comments. I like the idea of an around the wall plan. I think we all get too focused on the 4x8's of our youth and don't think bigger picture like Tom T does. There was a member on here who was building a great around the room switching layout. He passed away unfortunately last year but if you search for his posts (@paul 2), you will see some very creative and realistic work. He often posted on "what did you do on your layout". Here's one area he had shared. The main is along the edge, with an industry filling the corner.

Lift out or swing bridges still allow space for big curves while giving easy access to the center of the layout. Anything deeper than 3' is out of easy reach. Consider giving up the center peninsula and go with a wider center isle. Here's another plan I had saved from somewhere.

Long passing sidings are very common in real railroads. They give you the ability to have multiple trains on one track at the ready to run simply by flipping a couple of switches.

Looks like you have a great space to work with, you're a lucky guy. Try out the freeware version of SCARM and play around with it. It's relatively easy to learn and they have a full library of track mfr's to work with. A simulator can be added once you own a license. Take the time now, even if it means taking the bench apart and modifying it. Better to figure it out now then after you build more and are not happy with the results.

Bob

Good Morning Mark, I have been moving forward in that I have added foam board and it has been painted a shade of earth brown. The fascia has been painted black and the perimeter will eventually have a black skirt. However, I’m not going to be able to alter the bench work as suggested. During its construction I was just a helper as a friend of mine was the person with the vast set of skills. Although retired, he has been traveling and taking on other projects. I don’t like to impose on others, let alone someone who was so gracious with his time and expertise. My track plan has been revised and the two mainlines will have cross over capability. The inner track will have double reversing capability; and I was able to devise a way to save a good amount of real estate. There will be a mountain in the rear corner that will have an elevated trolley line providing service along with a village composed of flats at the rear area. The trolley will loop at both ends. Thank you for checking in and I have been following your progress as well.

Thanks Mark,

Jay

Jay, I'm glad you figured out a way to move forward.  I understand about not having the skills to alter the benchwork, and your friend isn't available.  I'm not that good at it either.  My benchworks isn't pretty, but I plan to cover it with scenery...someday!    Thank you for following the twists and turns of my layout build!  I will look forward to seeing photographs when you can post some.

Thank you Mark.