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I always wondered how the water was treated for steam locomotives, especially after I went to work at an Oil Refinery in the late 60's. I was quick to learn water treatment, when I went to work in the refinery Operations Dept. The refinery where I 1st started we treated Louisville City Water, and at Catlettsburg, Ky where I finished my career, we pumped water directly from the Big Sandy River, and pretreated from scratch.

I remember seeing as a kid at the old K&I Railroad round house there was a couple of above ground stand pipes, one being near the round house, and one near the coal shute....Thinking back , I figured it was just City Water from Louisville, and then the railroad no doubt, did the water treatment some how, when and after the engines were serviced, and water replentished in the tenders. I just never remember seeing one of the roundhouse gang adding any extra of anything into the tenders, other than coal, and sand when the engine was pulled under the sanding column.....

I do remember seeing , and being present a few times, when there was a boiler wash being done, to some of the engines at the roundhouse. (B&O/K&I/Southern) Monon had completely dieselized by the time that I had gotten old enough to slip off from home........Just thinking. I know there are probably a few that could add some education to my question on here........!

 

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Well here's what they do now.

https://feedwater.co.uk/boiler...itage-steam-engines/

Not sure what they used back in the day.

However I deal with factory steam systems. Mainly on the process side. So I don't get involved in the boiler house side.

Lets just say if the boiler treatment/water softening is not carried out correctly it causes carnage within the boiler and the steam system. You can normally tell from the condensate, which should be clear. If it's brown you have big problems!

 Nick

I guess maybe I should have clarified myself, a little better in "Steam Locomotive Boiler Water Treatment Today. I just used what I did when I did, as a reference, but what ever.....

I always wondered, as hearing about water pick up from track pans, and never seeing this done, other than pictures. Thinking about all of the debris that could get into these pans, and that's with keeping a close out, to keep leaves, and other dirt and debris out from contamination......May some others will put in their 2 cents on this one later.......Years ago when my step dad worked the 4501, and 610 on the Southern Steam program, they would get a lot of help with municipal supply including from fire trucks, but that isn't covering the treatment of the water.....I wished that back in the day, I would have ask my Step Dad how they treated the water but didn't......I was one of the Bell Ringers and Whistle Blowers...........Lol

I know that Hotwater will know, and give us a definitive answer (I'm interested in this, too!)

As far as my knowledge goes, I saw a 1960's film of Flying Scotsman being prepared for a run, and Alan Pegler was dropping these large "cake" like things into the water to treat it.  They looked like large cakes of soap, but he said in the narration that it was to treat the water, and those lasted a while before putting new ones in.

During my power plant years we only had one fire tube boiler (I believe it ran at 150 psig) that we used its steam as pegging steam in the deaerator of our boilers (water tube boilers) at start-up and when run at below design load. To most what I just said doesn't mean much, but the point is: Like a steam locomotive, none of the steam is reused, via condensation back into the cycle. 

Steam has very little carry-over so the impurities are left in the water that is in the boiler. As the boiler water level goes down, more water is added to maintain a safe boiler water level. And as steam is generated, even more impurities are left behind in the water. Good clean water will contain dissolved solids that are left behind when the steam is used for work. Different water sources contain varying amounts of different impurities. "Scale" build up in the boiler would be most notable. Softened water would be a good initial water treatment, and one of the most economical. Disclaimer: I don't know what the state of water treatment chemistry technology was during the steam age, or if any water treatment was done at all.

I would feel certain there was plenty of scale to be chipped, scrapped, shoveled, and removed from the boiler during service periods.

Hot Water would be your best source for info of current steam locomotive boiler water treatment, IMO.

Eddie Marra, reading your post, and 1st thanks for the memory jogger. I remember it was back in the 70's, don't remember which year, the 4501 was in Louisville at the K&I Roundhouse, and they were getting it ready to go to Corydon, Ind on an excursion run. I remember a guy that  had what looked like a Gunny sack full of something???, of which I didn't ask him, but I remember seeing him open the water hatch, at the rear of the tender, and a long rope tied on one end of this sack/bag, and dropped into the tender, then closing the lid......Think back now it was probably some sort of treatment chemicals, but what ???...I have no idea...... By the time that the 4501 was running, as well as, some of the other Southern Excursion Engines that came through Louisville, the tenders, as well as, the water cars, were filled from a fire hydrant  aka (City Water), north side of the Roundhouse......Thanks to the rest of you guys for your input......!

This is the best of the forums that I get on, as you get very good info, from people who have " done it", so to speak......... 

At least by the 1950’s, the addition of trisodiumphosphate was used to raise the pH of the boiler water and solution of TSP and water makes strong base (alkaline) and weak acid, which becomes a pH buffer. (That is, a solution that resists a change in pH).

All that said, that may have been what they added to the tender water. TSP exists like the consistency of sand. 

First, let me point out that Wikipedia has some EXCELLENT in-depth information on "Boiler Water Treatment", and those of you interested in the various chemical names should refer to that site.

Second, back in the "days of steam", each and every railroad had pretty large numbers of personnel working in the Water Service Department. The Water Service Department people were responsible for testing all make-up water (that is, water that would be used in the locomotives from all sorts of water tanks/towers) at each and every location on the railroad, plus water being drained from locomotive boilers at each and every roundhouse/shop that was performing scheduled boiler washes. The information and records collected & maintained by the Water Service Department, was the basis for treatment plans and chemical purchases for water treatment levels throughout their system. Thus, unlike today with the use of water hydrants, each and every water tank/tower/track pan, etc. that supplied water to steam locomotive tenders, supplied water that had been regular tested and treated by the Water Service Department personnel.

Many locomotive terminals also had supplies of large bags (50 pounds ?) of Nalco Chemical Co. "Tender Water Treatment Balls", that could be carried up on top of the tender, for the Fireman to use when taking particularly known "bad water" from outlying points.  Per written instructions/bulletins, the Fireman would throw a predetermined number of "balls" into the water portion of the tender, when taking water. Some railroads, the Union Pacific and Santa Fe  for examples, had such really bad water across the Nebraska plaines and desert southwest, respectively, that the performed boiler washes at 15 day intervals instead of the ICC mandated every 30 days. Generally, the whole purpose of treating boiler water was/is, to keep the dissolved minerals in the water from sticking to all the internal water portions of the boilers, thus the reasons for constant use of blowdowns entoute and periodic boiler washes at roundhouses and shops.

In today's modern excursion service, water must be taken on from hydrants, and there is no control over the quality of the water being taken. Thus, most excursion operators hav, and use, water test kits, in order to determine the "hardness" of the supplied water. At that point, known quantities of treatment chemicals (usually a caustic concentrate) are added to the tender/tenders in order to prevent the dissolved minerals from sticking to the inside steel portions of the boiler. Also, based on the water test, small quantities of Oxygen Scavenger and/or Anti-Foaming chemicals can be added. For what it's worth, the SP 4449 operation constantly tests the water directly from the boiler (twice a day, at least), and uses the Injector to add the necessary treatment chemicals DIRECTLY into the boiler. By doing so, there is far less chemicals used, since the treatments are ONLY going into the boiler, and not out on the ground whenever the tender/tenders are drained.

Hot Water you mention the use and installation of the 50# bags of chemical. I would bet, that was I saw one of the crew, put into the tender water side of the 4501 back in the day....

I know that treating stationary boilers as we /I did many, many years ago, was for a 24/7 operation enlieu of batch treatment, as would be done on some locomotives......It's all about taking care of the equipment, as Union Pacific found out the hard way I guess....!

Thanks for the input, as it was interesting, as well as, enlightening !

Treating boiler water is a black art with a thousand variables and products.  none are 100%. if they used caustic soda it was just to keep the water alkaline. One big variable was where the water came from originally and railroads would take it wherever it was available. During WW II the Germans used condensing engines in Russia because of a shortage of water.

Brandy posted:

Hot Water you mention the use and installation of the 50# bags of chemical. I would bet, that was I saw one of the crew, put into the tender water side of the 4501 back in the day....

To be clear, the whole 50 pound bag would NOT have been put into the tender! Those bags, from the Nalco Chemical Co. contained round balls, about 4" in diameter, and only a few would have been thrown into the tender water.

I know that treating stationary boilers as we /I did many, many years ago, was for a 24/7 operation enlieu of batch treatment, as would be done on some locomotives......It's all about taking care of the equipment, as Union Pacific found out the hard way I guess....!

Thanks for the input, as it was interesting, as well as, enlightening !

 

For the record, here's a look at cleaning scale and such out of an engine boiler.  As mentioned above, treating boiler water is something of a black art, and even the best treated water is going to have some dissolved minerals...  

Note that, on British Rail, this was done every 15 days or so.   Gives one an idea of why diesel locos caught on so quickly...   

Mitch 

All the Engineers I worked with as a young Fireman were steam men.  The youngest of them were steam Firemen, and the bulk of them were Engineers when Santa Fe used steam in California.  I learned a lot from them about steam days.

Santa Fe used a brown powder that had to be mixed with water, in a bucket, and then added to the locomotive's tank.  Union Pacific, a tenant via trackage rights and whose steam locomotives were serviced at the Santa Fe San Bernardino roundhouse, used Nalco balls.

Firemen were informed by Bulletin, of the amount of boiler compound to be used per thousand gallons, when taking water at various stations.  In reality, it was often not followed precisely, but some boiler compound in the water was better than none, and it helped, overall.

Its only logical that additives were added to the water of a steam locomotive. In areas where there is hard water, the mineral deposits would adversely affect operation in short order. I once read that for every hour of a steam locomotives operation, one hour of cleaning, oiling and maintenance was required. It created jobs for thousands but when diesel engines arrived, the work forces were cut back.

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

 As mentioned above, treating boiler water is something of a black art, and even the best treated water is going to have some dissolved minerals...  

 

It should be noted that available technology and economics made water treatment a "black art".

Limited technology: The development of ion exchange resin had only begun in the 1940's. So demineralized water wasn't close to perfection. Even softened water uses ion exchange resin.

Economic: Evaporated water is very close to pure and when condensed would make excellent make-up for a steam boiler. Only an alkaline treatment would be needed to protect ferrous metals. This would be very costly.

My question: The technology is readily available to generate "pure" make-up water, though it is still not cheap. But it might be cost effective, maintenance wise. (Rare excursion runs would be an exception.) What, if any, technology is used to run present day steam locomotives? Doesn't Disney operate steam locomotives daily. I would think their make-up water would be demineralized water. Or maybe RO water.

Tinplate Art posted:

At TVRR, we performed 30 day boiler washes, as well as SIGHT GLASS and tri-cock valve inspections and cleanings. During our six daily six-mile round trips, we did two blow downs on each run, and at the end of the day.

(emphasis mine)  Excellent job!

36 miles a day is respectable for excursion service.   Compare and contrast, however,  with the thousands of miles per month that a mainline steam engine might cover...   

Mitch 

Mitch: Definitely nothing like mainline service! LOL! I took the NS rules written exam as well as the practical steam exam and was a qualified steam fireman on our museum railroad. At that time all fireman were engineer trainees and ran at least two of the six trips. One time, thanks to a former Southern Railway retired Road Foreman, he let me run 5 of the 6 trips and this 70+ man shoveled the coal for me! The engine was ex-Southern 2-8-0 722. This was in 1984.

Last edited by Tinplate Art

This is an interesting topic for me since I worked in the water treatment industry for 10 years when I was young.  Starting off with a small specialty chemical company,I ended up working for a major for about 6 years before switching careers.

Water hardness(calcium and magnesium) is the culprit.  Hard water has high amounts,soft water lesser amounts.   We could converse  as to what is hard water and what is soft water,which becomes relative.  Surface water has a tendency to be soft,well water is hard.  The science and chemistry of water is pretty fascinating and is not full of hocus pocus,believe me.  Water,the universal solvent,will dissolve just about anything over time.  Soft water and steam have a tendency to be quite corrosive,hard water not so much.

Under temperature and pressure the two minerals(Ca,Mg) will come out of solution and form scale in the boiler tubes.  Scale can cause hot spots and potential tube failures.

This is one reason why steam engines have so much down time:tube replacements, running turbines to take out the scale,etc.

Industrial treatments are usually based on very little makeup of water and are easier to treat (treatment varies with % makeup).  Steam engines are 100% makeup and harder to treat (chemical balls work,potato skins worked years ago).  You have to remember that water quality changed from pan to pan,refill to refill.  

I can continue later if there are questions,out for an early dinner.

Norm

This thread was really interesting and raised a question I hadn't thought about ie how did they handle the crap that can be in water, the minerals and metals (ever see water in places like Michigan that can taste like a rusty nail because of iron in the ground when using groundwater). I have enough problem with hard water in my house, I can only imagine what it could do to a steam engine! Great discussion, learned a lot

Bigkid,

I remember the problems that you guys in Michigan had with your water.  It was an issue in the 70's,not as bad though.  I was in that water plant a few times back then.

If I remember correctly,softening will help to remove some of those minerals:ion exchange,sodium exchanged for the metals.

After using alum for floculation and clarification various ion exchange mediums can be used such as reverse osmosis (very expensive) to get rid of the bad things.

You can see why it was impossible to take the exacting science of water treatment to steam locomotives.

Norm

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