Twin Pines RailRoad

Jeff, that looks very sleek; nice job. Are you doing a backdrop? I’m looking forward to seeing your progress.

Jay

Jay, yes a backdrop is actually done. I there is a post Dec 17th which shows a couple of buildings with the backdrop in the background. I have also posted several videos which capture portions of the layout. I am making progress to getting it into the shape for a "Big Reveal".  I am considering buying  cloud stencils to do my side walls since I don't have room to hang anything.   

I probably have seen them but with so much information on this forum it gets blended. However, I will go check them out again. It’s an exciting approach you are taking and I’m looking forward to seeing the “Reveal “.

Love it.

Jay - that's why I decided to put the post together, so we can share progression. I have been following Mark's and several others and its really helpful to go to their layout posts to see what they have done.

Cool, that's one busy RR!   I'm curious, what are the grades like?  They look pretty steep, but maybe it's just a visual thing.

GRJ - I tried to build with no more than 2.8% grades. There are a couple of spots pushing 3.8% according to scarm - although I did adjustments as I built to minimize the grade, particularly at the turnouts. So what on scarm was supposed to be 6 1/2 to 7 inches clearance ended up at 5 1/2.  Visually most of the adjacent track is on a down grade while that next to it is going up, so even at a 2.5% grade it looks like 5%. The most visible spot is left of the dbl crossover where the track is diverging vertically in order to get cross over clearance further around the bend. While operating, the longer trains slow down a bit going up and speed up going down when running conventional. Using DCS it maintains constant speed. Without the space savings of the crossover I could not get the vertical clearances and could not build this layout.  NOTE: I went back with a level and measured the grades at various points.  My steepest grade is 13/16" over a run of 28"  = 2.9% grade.  A few points have 3/4 rise over 28" = 2.68%. The rest of the grades are 1.8%.  Minimum tunnel clearance is 5 1/2" top of rail to bottom of tunnel / bridge.

This is where the software helped immensely. I kind of knew what I wanted, it showed what I could and could not do given my space constraints.  Really good reality check.

https://drive.google.com/file/...yLx/view?usp=sharing

I posted this in May 2020. I forgot about all the residue left by blue painters tape used to protect the track from the gray grout mix seen all around the layout. A quick wipe with alcohol cleaned it right off.

3.8% is workable, but it's pretty steep.  I have 2.5%, and I was trying for 2%, just couldn't get enough run to make it happen.  At 3.8%, I can see some smaller and less powerful locomotives being limited as to what they can pull.  I tested my 2.5% grade with a Lionchief Plus Camelback that I converted to battery power, I don't have track power fully wired yet.  I ran the Camelback up the grade pulling eight Railking Aerotrain passenger cars, it had no issues, which gave me confidence.  The Aerotrain cars were selected as they're noted for having fairly high rolling resistance, so I thought they'd be a good test for the grade and the fairly small LC+ locomotive.

Jeff thank you for making the video available again as it provides interesting insights.

Got a little more work done over the past week or so, amazing how distracting selling off trains can be. Been focusing on the town area of the layout and thinking about how I want it to look given the space I have available. Added the wall in pink on the left and tore out the wall on the right.   

Using my drill press and a couple of router bits I made the railings out of 3/4 inch foam insulation.  The foam is covered with a thin layer of mortar mix and painted. I should really scratch the foam, since there is not much for the mix to grab on to - it chips and flakes off easily - OK on wood though.

Now with the top deck removed, more foam was laid down to provide walk ways for passengers. As much as I wanted the deck to be at subway door level, the curves just would not allow that to work. The outside curve is about 42 inches and the inside 31. (Next time the passenger station will have to be a straight section.)  The back retaining wall is masonite with thin foam strips all coated with mortar mix. I'll go back and paint to better match a concrete color. Planning to add arched detail sections between the back columns and add spot lights to the columns to illuminate the passenger areas.

Top deck is back on with a coating of concrete paint color.  Decided to add spheres to the top of the pillars for a bit of detail interest.

Did a little more work on TPRR. Got the upper level painted and added ballast to the terminal track all the way out to the 4 way yard switch. 

Still trying to decide what I want on this upper level. I have several buildings I could assemble. Need to add lamp posts and below ground lighting. I like the way the rails came out.

A view of the terminal. Arches added and painted. Printed a few "old" travel posters and hung them on the retaining wall across from the terminal. I may add a "frame" around them.

A bit of an illusion - the gray section is the retaining wall. I added passengers to the last 'eL' and need to add them to the 3 other subway cars. They are 1:50 scale people and pretty narrow, but fit well in the tight space of the cars.

Still need to do a touch more ballasting and lay down some grass. This section is about where I want it. The right side is a backdrop I painted a while ago. The back right with the trees lifts out completely so I can access track for maintenance as needed. This section blends pretty well with the backdrop so the eye does not notice the transition. Paint is a little more subtle in person.  It would be a lot easier popping up through the space if the table were 40 inches off the floor rather than 32. The light ballast is decomposed granite purchased at a feed store - called starter chicken grit. Has some nice color variation. And at $9 for a 50 pound bag it can work well in places. I prefer a dark grey for my main lines since it tends to hide the middle rail.

That blend really is great. It just melts together!

Jeff, you are like model railroading machine.

Everything looks good, Jeff!  Once painted things look a lot better.

OK so I have to ask, if a Delorean runs over one of the pine trees back in 1955, does your Railroad become "The Lone Pine Railroad"?

Nice work.  I've booked marked this thread as I have a similar space to work with.

Marty (McFly?) - More than likely if the Twin Pines never existed, the town and RR would have a different name - but "lone pine" could have been a choice : )  The name stems from a resort in the Spooner Wisconsin area my dad owned in the 50s and 60s - Twin Pines Resort on Twin Lake.  The twins were a red pine which had a common trunk until about 4 feet up and then split into two. Unless the DeLorean hit it when the tree was young, the DeLorean would be totaled - it was a big old growth tree. 

I have an idea for modeling a twin red pine tree and placing it in the center of town's main road. So yes there is a chance a vehicle could run into it. I don't have room for a "parkway" but a tree island will work.

9x13 is a really challenging space to work with - lots of compromise needed, especially if you want to have 072 curves to run the big stuff and still have visual and operating interest. 

@MartyE posted:

OK so I have to ask, if a Delorean runs over one of the pine trees back in 1955, does your Railroad become "The Lone Pine Railroad"?

Nice work.  I've booked marked this thread as I have a similar space to work with.

@ScoutingDad posted:

Marty (McFly?) - More than likely if the Twin Pines never existed, the town and RR would have a different name - but "lone pine" could have been a choice : )  The name stems from a resort in the Spooner Wisconsin area my dad owned in the 50s and 60s - Twin Pines Resort on Twin Lake.  The twins were a red pine which had a common trunk until about 4 feet up and then split into two. Unless the DeLorean hit it when the tree was young, the DeLorean would be totaled - it was a big old growth tree.

I have an idea for modeling a twin red pine tree and placing it in the center of town's main road. So yes there is a chance a vehicle could run into it. I don't have room for a "parkway" but a tree island will work.

9x13 is a really challenging space to work with - lots of compromise needed, especially if you want to have 072 curves to run the big stuff and still have visual and operating interest.

Jeff, thank you for the history behind the name for your layout.

Yes, 9x13 is a tough space for 072 curves.  I gave up on the idea of including them myself early in the designing process in my 11x11 room.  As it is the layout ended up being about 9x11 with a little peninsula in the opposite corner from the door since there is a big sliding glass door on the adjacent wall.

Just found your thread Jeff. You really make a lot of progress in a short amount of time. Cheers.

Pennsynut - to me it seems like this is taking forever. I have lots of ideas and get stuck trying to figure out what to do first. Then the CEO walks in and ask why certain sections are not done. Of course she is right, but I was focusing on my town area and left others devoid of any work - no ballast, backdrop - so those areas do not look very good. (Same area as the EP-2 photo - track laid but not much else)

I really should take the advice others have offered - do something on your layout every day.  Or as Nike used to say " Just do it" .

After rebuilding my layout at least three times, all by modifying existing areas and building on top of the old, I finally reached the conclusion, when it comes to track, it is better to rip everything down to the base and restart. I saw an area where I have a dip on a curved switch which sometimes causes a problem. I think the only viable solution is shimming the track because this area is already landscaped and ballasted. I really thought the base was level when I laid the track.

A couple of dips on my track developed over time and I shimmed them well after the area had been sceniced. As for trying to "get it all done for goodness sake", for me it is still taking years. In some places I made temporary mockup scenery on cardboard until I finally came up with a final plan. But we all know there is seldom a final final plan when it comes to model railroading. Carry on sir!

Pennsynut - I so agree. I'll just keep moving along.

I'm hopeful that no "dips" will form in my benchwork.  I used the Mianne benchwork as a base, Baltic Birch multi-ply and then Homasote to top it.  All of it was leveled to about 1/8" or better from end to end.  So far, I see zero propensity for the multi-ply to sag or warp, which is the reason I used it.

John, I don’t think you have anything to worry about!  👍🏻

Jeff, I think I am taking a long time on the layout, but when I look back at posts here, I am surprised it hasn’t taken as much time as I would have thought.

You got your bench work just in time John. Lumber prices are rocketing.

You ain't kidding!  My Baltic Birch multi-ply cost me $24 a sheet, now it's over $50!

Made a bit more progress on Twin Pines Rail Road.  It is nowhere near where I want it to be, but here are a bunch of photos so you can see around the entire 9x13 layout.  The right side of the layout is still a work in progress as soon as I can figure out what will look OK in the space.

The girder bridge is printed cardstock, walls are pink foam the portal is a double wide cut down by about an inch to give curve clearance on my larger locos.

The CEO placed the Christmas tree, snowman and presents in the square. A real surprise and fitting around Christmas.

The hill on the left is calling for more pine trees. The landscape behind the tracks are in two sections which can be easily lifted out, so I can pop up through the corner.

The hill in the corner used to be much taller but did not look right - so off came much of the bottom. It also provides space for an incoming rail line and another siding to "store" trains. The foreground space will have an Atlas switch tower - if I can get my hands on one. Maybe a Peco tower depending on shipping from the EU. This is a decent example of using chicken grit as ballast for the terminal rails and dark grey Scenic Express ballast for the mainlines. I did end up using paving sand between the track and covered with ground foam. (Frustratingly - I cannot get my WS static grass applicator to get the fibers to stand up - If I pour glue on my grounding rod, then it kind of works - argghhh.)

Terminal waiting for the Plastruct twin vertical tanks.  I'll probably add 4 inches to provide room for a road and the tanks in front of the building and pump rack.

There are 3 bridges in the photo, the middle one is hidden by the Lionel bridge. I had to raise it 3/4 of an inch off the deck to provide clearance for my husky stacks. Two of the bridges are lift outs with banana plugs providing power and removal if necessary. The MTH bridge swings out with a 4 inch door hinge.

Well that's my space and layout so far.  Jeff

Looking really good Jeff. I can’t get over that the girder bridge is card stock; it looks great. Given your demonstrated skills I think the CEO should award you additional space.

Really like the girder bridge.

Yep, same here. You need to walk us through how you built that girder bridge out of cardstock. It looks fantastic (as does everything).   Have you been taking lessons from RSJB18 (Bob) on the use of cardstock?, LOL! Great job!

OK Guys - regarding the bridge - I did get the idea of using cardstock from RSJB18 (Bob)   See my post on page 993 describing the bridge in "What did you do ..."  I made this bridge twice once in grey and then again in color. I used a laser printer - however the CA does not stick very well to the waxy laser ink - I would use ink jet when I do it again. Also color all the edges before you glue together, once coated with CA nothing you do will cover the white edge.  There are several posts of the bridge in my posts - a favorite photo location for me. 

Wow, Jeff, really great progress. I was worried about your grades too, but they seem to be working out.

A couple of people have commented on the difficulty of using O72 in a 9' x 13' space. 108"  is of course plenty of width for 72" diameter track- the problem is if you want a complex track plan, multiple loops and engines to be able to run anywhere on the layout. Since, when you come down to it, most of us run a lot more than we switch, here is one possible solution.

Simply make the O72 a completely different layout on another level and unconnected to the other level ( either above or below) and run the big trains on that. On the second level, use a smaller radius and a more complex track plan and do most or all of your switching on that level.

Will - all that yours on the "Art Website"?   impressive.

Turns out the upper/outer level is a minimum of 72" diameter - I don't know for sure because I had a box of used Ross track that went over 88".  Taking a page from many on the forum, where it fit, I would place the largest diameter curve I had on hand in the middle and finish with the 072. My second level has a mix of 072, 062, 054 and  042. The inner is no more than 42" with the depot having 031" at the tightest diameter. A couple of my MTH premiers supposedly minimum 072 run just fine on the tighter curves.

For me it was important to be able to run an engine on all three tracks - given the biggies were not going to be able to do that - so all the tracks need to be interconnected. Basically I wanted more than a 30 second loop around the track.

My biggest issues are - forgetting to put bridges back in place when changing from a test run to run on the layout (and the other tracks with the missing bridges) and forgetting to electrically connect all the tracks into one common feed.  I get to a turnout, get halfway through and oops no power. DRAT!

Overall running the big iron in a small space is really hard to do - other than a big circle. I was playing with SCARM and realized I need 19 feet just to have a modified dogbone with 072 - double mainline needs a touch bigger. This one is 13x23 and where do I put a multiple track passenger station (14 feet minimum length) - back is the only feasible place.

The Black Diamond RailRoad is built on a similar foot print and will probably be what I model on my next layout - with a little customization of course.   

Jeff, great looking work in all your photographs!  So your wife places items on your layout too!  Mike places them on the layout and waits for me to see them.  If I take too long, she asks me if I saw anything new, then I have to look closely.

@ScoutingDad posted:

Overall running the big iron in a small space is really hard to do - other than a big circle. I was playing with SCARM and realized I need 19 feet just to have a modified dogbone with 072 - double mainline needs a touch bigger. This one is 13x23 and where do I put a multiple track passenger station (14 feet minimum length) - back is the only feasible place.

It is possible to get a nice run in a 13x23 space, my layout is roughly 24 x 12 and all my curves are O72 or larger.  I went with a large folded dog-bone that has a second level.  My dog-bone mainline has 140 running feet of track, and there are three smaller loops that I can either run on or park things on.  I also incorporated the capability to reverse direction on the main dog-bone, something that I felt would be mandatory.

Here's two shots, on the lower left of the main level plan, the elevated section ramp starts and wraps around the back.  The elevated section is depicted in the second graphic.

Main table level track plan

Elevated level track plan

A shot from the front showing the grade

Did more track ballasting and ran out of the dark gray Scenic Express. Probably need one or two more gallon containers.  Updated the SCARM drawing to show what is now on the layout. I do not see any more room for track. : ( 

With this last update - I think I now have more curved turnouts than traditional ones. They are a real space saver as there is not much straight track on this configuration.

Spooner WI.... Pretty country up there. We were on a lake in Burnett county. Deer lake. Your layout looks quite impressive Jeff. Thanks for all the updates and photos...

10’ to the right, 10’ to the left, she’ll never notice.

Scott, I don’t see your photograph.

That gives the impression of being larger than 24’x12’ John. It looks vast.