Twin Pines RailRoad

@ScoutingDad posted:

Bob, as I recall your space is tight.  I like the run around approach.  I suggest you look at running the red track exiting the yard along the back and then down the left side. Use that track length to make the climb to the next level.  Even at a 4% grade you would need 14 1/2 feet plus the transitions. I think you have that length on those two sides. Mine is complicated by the 72 dia curves with the parallel main at 88 dia.

The base dimensions are 8' (left), 12' (top), and 10' (right) so I should have the run length I need. Getting the vertical clearance under the main level where the red intersects the yellow in time would be the biggest challenge. It may not be possible without shortening the yellow loop to allow the red more running length to transition down.

Laid track on the incline, added a couple of switches and let a gondola run down slope. My passenger cars wheels are a little too stiff to run freely even after a spot of oil.

The car runs more than 360 degrees around the layout ending 3 feet past where it started but on the lower level.

Jeff, Bravo!!

Done like a true Pinewood Derby professional.

Looks good Jeff.

@RSJB18 posted:

Done like a true Pinewood Derby professional.

Looks good Jeff.

Ah yes!  The old Pinewood Derby!  I am reminded of that as well!  It took my three years in Cub Scouts for Dad mostly to figure out how to make a good racer out of that block of wood.  My brother was in Cub Scouts right after I went on to Boy Scouts, and Dad helped him make some mighty competitive racers!!

WOW Jeff that is some of the smoothest running track I have ever seen! You are doing a great job on your grades and the build all together!

Me I am still sifting through plywood scraps! LOL

Jeff- I went back after your comments and redesigned the yard lead to the outside of the main level loop. It gives me about a 17' run to the yard lead switch and a little less to clear the board above for the inner loop. Still steep but better than before. I actually realigned the yard tracks with a pair of 3-way switches and lengthened them in the process too.

Disregard the two random tunnel portals on the yard loop....SCARM is being flaky.

Here's the inner loop layer turned on to show the crossing point of the yard lead. Might be a good place for a bridge.

Bob

Bob, had not thought about doing the revision the way you did. The 17 foot length should give you about a 4% grade. Manageable considering what you like to run.  I had though about the lead running along the back and left. Of course the yard would be moved or extended. See the black line. 

But I think you can get a few more feet with the yellow track up until it hits the turnout with your last drawing.

Well no new photos, but am lining up the upper level track and screwing it down in places. Once I have the general arrangement secure, the top section comes off so I can layout and secure the lower freight / Passenger tracks.  That will be easier and quicker than sliding the lower level out. I have to remove a large section of the L girders because they block too much of the lower level. Of course that means adding support columns along the way. My son suggested adding dim yellowish lights so the lower level will look just like the Chicago Union Station arrival / departure tracks.

Jeff I know it is going to be a lot of work, but with the amazing skills you have I am sure you will enjoy evey minute! I am also sure everything will be nice and smooth!

@ScoutingDad posted:

Bob, had not thought about doing the revision the way you did. The 17 foot length should give you about a 4% grade. Manageable considering what you like to run.  I had though about the lead running along the back and left. Of course the yard would be moved or extended. See the black line.

But I think you can get a few more feet with the yellow track up until it hits the turnout with your last drawing.

Thanks Jeff. I think I like the new plan. The left, top, right, are against walls so I prefer to have the loop accessible as much as possible. I'd probably build a subway platform around the curve an up the left side of the yard too. I'd also have to reconfigure the crossover switches between the inner and outer loops too which would blow up the whole plan.
Now I just need the space to build it.

Bob

Laid out the lower level track and yard. Still have a few adjustments to make, but this should work well. Upper levels have been removed.

First photo is the the long descending portion. I added a turnout here and at the next photo so that I can either have a run around for a switcher or use it as a holding are for another passenger train. 

Below are the 2nd set of run around switches. All of the yard lead switches are curved Ross 096/072s or a couple 054/031s on the tight corner. Use of the Ross switches was critical to get the length needed for 5 car 70 foot sets.  An extra 2 cars fit if I am willing to foul a switch.     I bought a 120/96 thinking it might work in this spot, unfortunately not enough space. Anyone willing to trade a right hand 96/72 for a right hand 120/96 ?

Something I was kind of dreaming about, all my passenger trains on track at the same time.  Well almost, a Burlington Zephyr, a UP M10000, a Great Northern streamlined and a Pennsylvania heavyweight await opportunities to ride the rails. Its apparent the extra cars on the SP set foul the SF track. 21 inch sets are a lot longer than 18 inch sets and the Rail King sure packs a lot into a small space.

Very happy to have these passenger sets on the rails. From left to right: MTH Premier Norfolk and Western heavy weight;  MTH Rail King Denver and Rio Grande heavy weight 4 car set; MTH Premier Milwaukee Road Hiawatha with Skytop observation car;  Weaver 21 inch Milwaukee Road Hiawatha with beaver tail observation car; MTH Premier Santa Fe; MTH Premier Southern Pacific Daylight.

Jeff, your benchwork, track and passenger cars look great!  You really did a nice job planning and executing.  The run around track is a good idea!  No, I can't say that I can help you with a trade of curved switches. 

Whilst taking the passenger cars off the track, I am taking the opportunity to lube the wheels and pick up bearing points. Some spin quite freely, others not so much so hoping the oil will loosen them up.

Thanks to @Bill Webb decided to try out Tortoise machines to replace finicky DZ machines which will be in hard to reach locations.  Since I really did not want to solder to the Tortoise board, Bill suggested using these (or similar) adapters. Of course not wanting to waste an opportunity, I also bought their (Touch Toggle) controller and green/red touch buttons. Cool thing about the buttons, they are made to mount under a paper printout of the layout area and in a glass picture frame. Running a finger over the LED light causes a voltage change switching the tortoise and the turnout.   Now all I have to do is install the 6 Tortoise machines before moving on to the upper level of the layout. And then do the layout printout.

WOW Jeff I am with Mark, your bench work is Outstanding!! and I love all the passenger trains you have in your staging area! Some day down the road I will have to save up some money for passenger cars for my UP 4-8-4.

I wish I knew about Tortoise accessories before I gave up on them. I really like how they work, but if you dont plan ahead and try to do it after track is down it sucks! LOL

Mike - LOL - you know at some point I will cut up all the upper level plywood to separate the track. I laid the bigger pieces down simply because I did not know how to handle the lower level up to the upper level.  I must say the time, design and material investment really paid off on the transition grade. Trains run really smooth down grade.

Keep looking for the UP cars every once in a while a MTH Premier set goes for $200. Of course I am not sure what your budget might be. As I recall you were looking at a Rail King Santa Fe set?   I've been looking for a UP set to run with my BigBoy, but have not pulled the trigger simply because of the "where will I put it" concern.  I'll  figure that out later. Of course the other passenger set of interest is the Illinois Central Panama Limited or something similar.

I suppose you are correct regarding adding switch machines after track is laid. No way I could have done it on TPRR1.  But drilling a 3/8 hole for the switch wire should not be that big of a deal. Have to do it anyway for the DZs.  I do like the idea of a printed layout under glass and no buttons to push or wires to run through the panel.  As much as I may try, my panel wiring is a mess - something Mark would not even remotely find acceptable. Routing and bundling panel wires is the work of an artist - I do not possess that skill.

Just a thought,  I can schedule Zoom meetings for multiple callers where we can see each other and share screens and video.  Maybe we can convince @Mark Boyce to give us a date and time for his inaugural run and we can all see it go live.

Jeff, I only now wish I had located the panel in a different spot.  I am having to cram more wires in, but they will tie up pretty nicely .

It is about time to get the mower ready, pick up sticks, and whatnot for spring.  We will see how much that slows down the railroad.

Thought you all might be interested how a track plan evolved, especially as it was being built and space was easier to visualize. The track plan is roughly 12x12. This is the lower yard portion only. Passenger trains are expected to back into their assigned track. 

@DoubleDAZ was a great help in this initial plan. The thing that bothered me was the loss of available car storage due to the 4 way yard switch.  The red track is the transition track to the main operating level.

This is the layout as built today.  I ended up using curved Ross turnouts to maximize yard track. The first two are 0120/096, which I did not think would fit initially - they did.  I also added the spur section to provide additional storage and as I later realized, as a run around for any switchers which may enter the yard in the lead. 

Overhead view of those beautiful Ross curved turnouts. The track is mostly Ross sectional with a few Gargraves flex sections used where needed.

Congratulations Jeff, that’s quite the evolution this past year for you.

Jay

Jeff those turnouts are sweet. Glad to see that construction is underway.

The second plan is a great improvement!  I agree, the curved switches are great looking, and so smooth for the passenger trains!

Jeff looks wonderful! I do have a question as I am going to have to deal with it down the road also. How do you plan on seeing what is going on under the layout? I have been looking at a couple cheap backup cameras that connect to your cell phone or tablet.

@mike g.  Great question. I just had the camera discussion with my son. I think a webcam might make the most sense, but we will investigate. I have a battery powered cheapie GoPro knockoff which will stream to a phone - quality is marginal and signal can be choppy when transmitting from a moving train. The cab views on TPRR were taken with the camera. They were saved to a minicard and not saved streamed images. Details on the camera are there.

I have a total clearance of 8 inches - so a little over 4 inches from the top of the cars to the ceiling. I can see in from both directions so I do not anticipate a major issue.  Total width is 30 inches and with clear access from both sides its basically 15 inches.  Its also the reason I trimmed off the vertical portion of my L-girders to be able to see into the yard.  I have to add a central support column to stabilize the upper level.  Yours is a little more limited in access - I would consider having enough room to get a hand in to address a derailment or other mishap.  I would just leave an open access space from below. No fun crawling around under the layout, but way better to have some access than none.

The images show how much access I have. Note, I really trimmed out the L-Girders, the one remaining shows how much they reduced clearance when in place.  Each track is isolated, so you can see the wires inserted into the track to provide neutral and hot. (The Ross turnouts did not have the inside electrically rails connected, so a jumper from outer to inner rails provides the neutral connection.)  I'll eventually put a switch on each power supply to turn off as needed. I see no point in keeping passenger cars lit on the track when not in use.

Jeff the webcam is a great idea, now I have to start thinking about a wifi webcam! LOL I have an old smart phone or a small tablet I could use.

Your work on your layout is just amazing! If I ever decide to redo mine again I am going to start over from ground up and use all the great info I have learned here! Starting with top quality plywood! LOL

Ah, you had to trim to get clearance also!  It is a challenge, Jeff.  It looks great!  Good ideas on visibility!

@mike g.  Mike, I learned my lesson from using cheap nominal 1/2 ply on TPRR1. The bending a warping started after I had sceniced and ballasted. Fixing those problems were a major pain.

@Mark Boyce  Mark, since I have been so deliberate with the build, I was able to slice the "Ls" down on the table saw without too much trouble. Its not a great thing to do on the saw, but raising the blade into the workpiece is "safer" than trying to gently drop/lower the piece onto the rotating blade.  Get it wrong and they tend to sail at high speed. No admission here on doing stupid things with rotating machinery. 

Decided to do a 75 second video on the build so far.  I think I need a narrator with a deeper voice.     TwinPines2 layout update August  Still wish I had a larger available space, oh well ... 

My grandson Ryan asked me whether we could run trains the next time he visits. Trying to get the layout to the point where we can actually run some trains.  Maybe a couple of more hours to get the bridge up to the point where we can run some trains tomorrow - Wednesday.

I found I really enjoy seeing the various cars I purchased for the grandkids over the past few years. The wall shelf is great so I added a couple more to another wall. Nowhere near as large, but I did get a bunch of engines out of their boxes. Several I have never run because the TPRR1 was down before I received them. Hard to believe its been nearly a year since we moved.  Anyway knowing I have trains in boxes is nothing like being able to see them and easily take them down to "run some trains" !

We have had the empty box discussion on other posts - mine went into ceiling joists after adding a few furring strips.

Jeff, I could use a narrator with a deeper voice as well.  Thank you for the video going around the layout seeing it in a contiguous fashion and not just snapshots of sections.  Nice idea for freight car box storage.

Mark, after noodling around on the Blackwater Canyon rebuild, I guess I got the idea for the engine area from you.  I thought about adding a wye but decided I wanted as much track length as possible. 

Any ideas on a decent engine house to build?  I'll have to go back through the forum posts to see what others have done. I remember seeing several which were quite stunning including one from today.

Nice to hear your recovery is coming along well.  I used to sing 1st tenor in a church choir, so the high notes are not all that difficult to reach. On the other hand it does get tiresome when on the phone people usually respond "yes ma'am" - not sure how one gets ma'am out of Jeff - oh well, another cross to bear : )

@ScoutingDad....wondering if you are using tortoise machines on your upper level switches and if so, do they interfere with cars on the lower level yard? I am building a similar layout with a lower level yard and am having trouble deciding on switch machines for my ross switches.

Jeff, I have never liked hearing the sound of my own voice.  That  is probably why I type out long answers where a short video would do the job better.

My engine house is from. Carolina Craftsman Kits, the same fellow who made the Thomas, West Virginia two story station I build last winter.  The engine house is a model of the Thomas, West Virginia two stall engine house.  I know it is out of production.  I have seen some modelers build the Korber engine house that Mr. Muffin now sells.  Proses from Turkey makes one with operating roll up doors, but it looks too utilitarian to me.

Thanks mark. I'll check those out.

@LT1Poncho  I am sure you are not "Poncho" - I am sure there is a story there - I love the Tortoise on the lower level. No need for anti-derailing, very reliable.  They are problematic on the upper level where they would interfere with the yard below - mainly at the Ross cross over. There are ways to add stiff cabling (model aircraft) if I wanted to move the Ross' to another location. I have DZs I can use there or just manual switches. Have not decided as yet.  I also like the touch toggles, but I run DCS there are interference problems with TMCC/and whatever the current Lionel version is.

As it turns out I had only a few minutes to work on the layout to prepare it for running.  Pick up the grandkids, plan dinner for  the crew, pick up the necessities, prepare the meal and clean up along the way. No wonder I have trouble accomplishing anything on the TPRR2 rebuild.

Jeff,

Nice update on the track work. Will you have a town or industry? If so, where? BTW, your voice is fine. You are very clear and articulate. That's all that is necessary. Keep us posted.

Dave

@ScoutingDad posted:

Thanks mark. I'll check those out.

@LT1Poncho  I am sure you are not "Poncho" - I am sure there is a story there - I love the Tortoise on the lower level. No need for anti-derailing, very reliable.  They are problematic on the upper level where they would interfere with the yard below - mainly at the Ross cross over. There are ways to add stiff cabling (model aircraft) if I wanted to move the Ross' to another location. I have DZs I can use there or just manual switches. Have not decided as yet.  I also like the touch toggles, but I run DCS there are interference problems with TMCC/and whatever the current Lionel version is.

As it turns out I had only a few minutes to work on the layout to prepare it for running.  Pick up the grandkids, plan dinner for  the crew, pick up the necessities, prepare the meal and clean up along the way. No wonder I have trouble accomplishing anything on the TPRR2 rebuild.

@ScoutingDad….. The “Poncho” is a reference to my “Pontiac” Trans Am. My other passion besides model trains is fiddling with sports cars.

Thanks for the reply. I think I’m going to go with DZ1000 machines on the whole layout expansion. I want to use tortoise but I don’t want to mix and match if I can avoid it,  and I know there will be interference with the lower yard level even with an 8” clearance I have built in. Love you idea of touch toggles. I want to use those on the fascia giving me the option of using a remote and MTH TIU/AIU or the toggle to actuate the switches! Good idea sir! Thanks for the updates! Learning a lot!

Jeff- the layout looks good. I like the use of the overhead space in the floor joists for storage.

If you ever need, me and my FM DJ voice are available for voice overs....... I was a first tenor in 9th grade Concert Choir, second bass in 10th.......

Hope you are having fun with your grandson.

Bob

@LT1Poncho posted:

@ScoutingDad….. The “Poncho” is a reference to my “Pontiac” Trans Am. My other passion besides model trains is fiddling with sports cars.

Thanks for the reply. I think I’m going to go with DZ1000 machines on the whole layout expansion. I want to use tortoise but I don’t want to mix and match if I can avoid it,  and I know there will be interference with the lower yard level even with an 8” clearance I have built in. Love you idea of touch toggles. I want to use those on the fascia giving me the option of using a remote and MTH TIU/AIU or the toggle to actuate the switches! Good idea sir! Thanks for the updates! Learning a lot!

I went with DZ1000s and some manual throws for sidings near the layout edge.  I wired them for both push button control and remote control through the AIU.  I haven’t gotten slick enough to use the remote yet, so I’ve relied on the push buttons.  🤦‍♂️

@Mark Boyce……I use the MTH app in a kindle fire dedicated $39 tablet. I find it easier than the handheld remote. I know most disagree with that but just my opinion. Takes a few days to get used to the sequence of touches. I’m like you, I still like walking around the layout and pushing a button to actuate the switches. Old dog….

Poncho, I have a WTIU on order whenever they finally release them.  I have trouble with the thumbwheel on the remote due to arthritis, so I finally thought I would try the wifi and a small tablet.

Jeff, thanks for the video detailing your progress. I’m with Dave, your voice is fine. I don’t think anyone likes the sound of their own voice 😁. I like the lower level, good call on the clearance, it will make life a lot easier. Your benchwork is outstanding, and will make for reliable running. This should be lots of fun to run trains, I hope you get to do that with your grandson soon.

Andy

Jeff sorry it has taken so long, but I think you're doing an outstanding job on your layout and the video really helps pull everything together. I had an idea of your plan and how things were coming along, but the video really helped! I will be watching for more updates!