"Twin Trolley" project

"Old School" can be a winner

The only complication I can see if if one of the powered units is freewheeling enough to coast thru the stop section, but that should be easily rectified by increasing the length of the stop section.

@Yendor posted:

The only complication I can see if if one of the powered units is freewheeling enough to coast thru the stop section, but that should be easily rectified by increasing the length of the stop section.

Yep -- in fact, with the test bed I had to keep the speed down a bit, since the locomotive had enough "coast" to sometimes make it through the single stop track section. When I translate the setup to the layout, I'll make the stop section two sections long.

The other possible glitch would be if you had a consist of several cars, it's possible for the rear-most car to still be in the control section when the engine enters the stop section, and thus trigger the engine to continue. When I added a tender to the engine, it sometimes did just that, so I'll make sure the spacing between the sections is far enough apart to prevent this. Of course, the *plan* was to run two trolleys, so "length of the consist" does not really pose a problem!

@Scotie posted:

"Old School" can be a winner

@Steve Tyler posted:

.... I'd heard about such a control system from the postwar era, but the video provided all the clarity I needed to cobble together my own version! Thanks and full credit to "ChristmasGarden" for the inspiration!

(That's me on YouTube, ChristmasGarden) Most welcome, Steve!!!!

@Joe Rampolla,

Your website is pretty impressive.  I've been on OGR for a little over a year now, and I think this is the first time I saw one of your posts.  You're definitely one of the guys I'll pay attention to on any future posts I come across.

@texgeekboy

Thanks for the feedback!

Can we get a track diagram for this, please? 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Can we get a track diagram for this, please? 

Well, it's dead simple, almost as elementary as Joe's inspiration: half-circles of O-27 curved tubular track, separated by several feet of straight. I'll shoot a short video and post it later today. Still working out the bugs (and will have a lot of repair and clean-up work to do!), but it does run pretty much as I intended.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Well, it's dead simple, almost as elementary as Joe's inspiration: half-circles of O-27 curved tubular track, separated by several feet of straight. I'll shoot a short video and post it later today. Still working out the bugs (and will have a lot of repair and clean-up work to do!), but it does run pretty much as I intended.

Please also include insulator and wire placement. 

Mitch

Everything in green is insulated rail connected by a wire also in green, red dots are plastic pins:

If you continue the insulated rail all the way to the stop section you don’t need any wire at all. Even simpler.

@Brad J posted:

If you continue the insulated rail all the way to the stop section you don’t need any wire at all. Even simpler.

Not really; it's extra rails to modify.

That’s your opinion

'Trigger' and 'control' sections can be nested or even placed several (unlimited) feet apart. The purpose of my video and the screen cap diagram from my video was to demonstrate the concept.  One control or trigger section that corresponds to one or more stopping sections.  Hope this helps!

@Brad J posted:

That’s your opinion

Well, no -- your suggestion absolutely *will* require additional track section modifications (and IMHO that's the most fiddly part of the whole project!), unless you limit the location of the sections to immediately adjacent to each other. As Joe points out, connecting them by a simple wire allows the sections to be located as the project requires. As *my* recent experience suggests, being able to adjust the location and length of the sections can be crucial to getting the setup working smoothly for any given combination of vehicles.

Well, *finally* got everything transferred to the main layout, and tweaked, reconfigured and did troubleshooting on it until I was finally able to beat it into submission, so I shot some more video and lightly edited it all together in an interim video progress report:

@Steve Tyler

Thanks for sharing!!  Great videos!!!!!!!!!!!!  Your application of this old technique with a figure eight set-up is an excellent way to duplicate the Marx "twin train" technique, without relays!!!!!

Thanks!!!!!

@Joe Rampolla posted:

@Steve Tyler

Thanks for sharing!!  Great videos!!!!!!!!!!!!  Your application of this old technique with a figure eight set-up is an excellent way to duplicate the Marx "twin train" technique, without relays!!!!!

Yeah, that occurred to me as well, Really, the only missing feature would be the loss of signal control without a relay -- you could set it up so a green (or red the other direction) light would go on whenever the stop section was re-powered, but I haven't been able to think of a way to change colors in a given direction without a relay. Ah, well, I already built the relay version -- in fact, I just scratch-built and added a fence around the relay's location:

Here's the near-final version, with added signage (needs only a few workmen, to justify the open gate!):

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Please also include insulator and wire placement. 

I believe Joe's diagram covers the topic, though in the video you'll notice I changed the direction of operation on my layout to counter-clockwise. Also, you can infer where I located the trigger and stop sections from the motion of the vehicles. You can also see the change in speed when *both* vehicles are drawing on the power at the same time, which made sizing both sections a bit of a challenge. I ended up with a three track section long trigger section, and a section and a half stop section, and I *still* have to tweak the speed a bit to be sure they don't overrun the stop section and keep going!

With atlas track all you need Is 4 insulated rail joiners.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Well, *finally* got everything transferred to the main layout, and tweaked, reconfigured and did troubleshooting on it until I was finally able to beat it into submission, so I shot some more video and lightly edited it all together in an interim video progress report:

Tangential question:  How did you override the E-unit in the Industrial Rail trolley?  Inquiring minds want to know,,, ^.^

@Steve Tyler posted:

I believe Joe's diagram covers the topic, though in the video you'll notice I changed the direction of operation on my layout to counter-clockwise.

That it does!  Thanks! 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Tangential question:  How did you override the E-unit in the Industrial Rail trolley?  Inquiring minds want to know,,, ^.^

Well, that's a bit of a tale, but the short version is that I use some fairly hefty low-ohm resistors across the relay to provide a trickle of current when the 'stop' section is depowered, with full current restored after the adjustable delay period. That keeps the trolley's E-unit from cycling, leaving it moving forward when power is restored rather than in neutral (it's a Lionel-style four-direction E-unit).

It's a bit fiddly, though -- not enough throttle, and the E-unit cycles; too much, and the trolley creeps forward on the trickle and can sometimes escape the stop section prematurely.

BTW, I don't have that issue with the twin 'trolleys' -- the one current trolley has a simple bump-to-reverse action that stays forward until it hits something, and the loco is a Lionel with the E-unit switched off in forward. The trolley on order is another Lionel unit of the same type.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Well, that's a bit of a tale, but the short version is that I use some fairly hefty low-ohm resistors across the relay to provide a trickle of current when the 'stop' section is depowered, with full current restored after the adjustable delay period. That keeps the trolley's E-unit from cycling, leaving it moving forward when power is restored rather than in neutral (it's a Lionel-style four-direction E-unit).

Hum!  I wonder if a capacitor would do the job. 

It's a bit fiddly, though -- not enough throttle, and the E-unit cycles; too much, and the trolley creeps forward on the trickle and can sometimes escape the stop section prematurely.

I can imagine. 

BTW, I don't have that issue with the twin 'trolleys' -- the one current trolley has a simple bump-to-reverse action that stays forward until it hits something, and the loco is a Lionel with the E-unit switched off in forward. The trolley on order is another Lionel unit of the same type.

Have you considered MTH bump and go trolleys? 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Hum!  I wonder if a capacitor would do the job.

Have you considered MTH bump and go trolleys? 

Mmm, capacitors are not able to store AC power, and even if you converted it to DC first, I don't think the Lionel trolleys would run on DC.

I didn't really consider anything other than something inexpensive and roughly matching the trolley I already have. I actually have another trolley already, but it refuses to play nicely with the others . . . 🤨

@Steve Tyler posted:

Mmm, capacitors are not able to store AC power, and even if you converted it to DC first, I don't think the Lionel trolleys would run on DC.

Actually, pretty much all Lionel motors will run quite happily on DC.  You don't wanna run anything with a horn or whistle on DC, as DC is what trips the relay. 

I didn't really consider anything other than something inexpensive and roughly matching the trolley I already have. I actually have another trolley already, but it refuses to play nicely with the others . . . 🤨

I've got that same Christmas trolley, and, yes, it can be rather persnickety. 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Actually, pretty much all Lionel motors will run quite happily on DC.  You don't wanna run anything with a horn or whistle on DC, as DC is what trips the relay. 

I've got that same Christmas trolley, and, yes, it can be rather persnickety. 

Interesting. Yes, that other trolley *is* a Lionel, and yes, it will run on DC, but seems to not conduct enough juice through the axle to trigger either of my trolley stop installations, so it's been sidelined from such use (I'd been using it in bump-and-reverse mode on that loop, by itself, before the recent twin trolley conversion). I've never tried the other Lionel trolley on DC, but as it happens, I have that loop wired to a switch that allows output from a DC transformer to power that loop. I'll have to experiment.

However, I think the capacitor would still be a non-starter -- it would initially be charged to full track voltage (DC), and would IMHO rapidly be depleted trying to power the motor (unless it was a honkin' big capacity!), and *until* it is depleted, it would be trying to move the trolley forward at or near speed, and might succeed in pushing the trolley out of the stop section. You *might* be able to buffer that charge by using resistors as I did on the el loop . . . but ISTM it would be much simpler (and cheaper!) just using resistors directly with track voltage, as I did.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Yeah, that occurred to me as well, Really, the only missing feature would be the loss of signal control without a relay -- you could set it up so a green (or red the other direction) light would go on whenever the stop section was re-powered, but I haven't been able to think of a way to change colors in a given direction without a relay. Ah, well, I already built the relay version -- in fact, I just scratch-built and added a fence around the relay's location:

Here's the near-final version, with added signage (needs only a few workmen, to justify the open gate!):

. . . and here's the final final version, now that the work crew has finally shown up:

@Steve Tyler posted:

I've never tried the other Lionel trolley on DC, but as it happens, I have that loop wired to a switch that allows output from a DC transformer to power that loop. I'll have to experiment.

Update: no joy. I switched the track to DC power, cranked it up, and . . . nothing. To be fair, there *was* a spotlight car and whistle tender on a siding *also* powered by the same DC transformer that may have drawn some power off, but there was no indication that the trolley was about to move or even light up. Switched back to AC, both the engine and the trolley resumed their tag match. So, I'd tentatively say the older model Lionel trolley I have probably doesn't play well with DC . . .