“Two powerful motors with momentum flywheel” in the AF SD70ACe's ?

I doubt it.  It seems most of the text and images were cut, modified and pasted from the 2010 Vol 2 catalog.  The Heritage units have incorrect numbers on them, too.

http://www.trainweb.org/richar...age_Photo_Shoot.html

Rusty

Could be the same setup as the new PA's, two vertical can motors.

Rich

2 motors is correct.

SantaFefan: Any chance you can persuade the powers that be to gear this locomotive down slower than the new U33C? I can only use the first 100 speed steps on Legacy before it's ready to fly off the next curve. Disappointing with the rest of the loco being so good that it was geared so high. These new scale locos aren't being purchased and run by six year olds....

Despite my gripe, keep up the good work and keep them coming; any chance of seeing the CY2000 still-born SD-40????

Great minds must think alike!  I requested a gear ratio change for this loco when we started the design process a few months back!  The U33 is 10.5:1; I expect at least 15:1 on this product.

Good Day Jon,

Thanks for the information. How about offering a Atlantic Coast Line SD70ACe in S Scale?

Regards,

Frank

      Drawing by Michael Eby          Painted by Frank Swafford

Hmmm.  The "im"famous China drive?

Strikes me as a step backwards, but I'm willing to reserve full judgment until when they come out.

Now, about those incorrect numbers on the Heritage units...

Rusty

Thanks Jon for the info on the re-gearing effort. I'll definitely have to support you with a purchase.

Well I have the KCS unit on order.  If it runs reasonably close to my SD60 I'll get a second unit but if it runs like the usual China drives do, it will be a lonely shelf queen.  I wonder why they go to the trouble of designing the drive for the U33C and then drop it for the SD70ACe.  Time will tell of course.

Greg

They pretty much have to go this route. The delays on the U33 as I understand were largely due to lack of space. The Legacy components are big. That is one of the things that bothers me. I have my doubts that we will see anything smaller than a U33 unless they redesign the electronics. This is a big reason I thikg that MTH is in a position to jump into the market. Their PS3 electronics are small enough for HO models, but powerful enough for O. S would be a no brainer. I will be very interested to see if Lionel "micronizes" their electronics or if we will just never see smaller engines. I personally prefer smaller equipment so I am taking a wait and see approach.

I have no vested interest in the upcoming SD-modern thingy... but I do understand those that are concerned about the vertical dual drive arrangement.  Haven't seen that type of arrangement perform as good as single horizontal motor w/flywheels in other installations. (i.e. 3 rail.)

Hopefully Lionel's upcoming new-tooling rolling stock will be more in keeping with my era and tastes.

Andre

There seems to be a "cultural" thing at the 3-rail O and Flyer S end of the model railroading spectrum about having two motors.  (Note: This is my opinion only.)  And that is 2 motors = better.  More pulling power, more brute force, pulls a million cars... (Insert Tim Allen grunts here.)

I'm always amused by comments on the 3-rail side when folks there question the pulling power and reliability of a single motor...

While everybody and their brother in the other scales (including O Scale) have used a single central motor for decades with excellent results, this segment seems to love two motors and will not surrender them quietly.

Well, we'll see how well this drive will do in the SD70ACe's.  I'm interested in the MP and a future MKT, more for esthetic reasons more than anything else.  Otherwise, they're way to modern for even the elastic upper end of my scale modeling era and the wrong side of the Mississippi for my HiRail interests.

Still, I'd rather see these new modern diesels available than not.  I think they're a real shot in the arm for S.

Rusty

IMHO there is no reason a vertical motor drive can't be designed to operate well. You have to spend more money on the right gears and such, but it can and HAS been done well. Modern electronics with back EMF load compensation are able to smooth them out even more. I am sick of hearing that it has to be a horizontal motor or it is junk. That just isn't true.  What S (and O for that matter)needs is some innovation. Look at what NWSL has offered recently for HO... A repower truck that has a totally concealed motor in the truck itself. If it can be done in HO it can be done in S. Technically that is... market size not withstanding. 2 small truck mounted direct drive motors would provide more than enough pulling power. There is only so much torque that can be applied before the wheels lose traction and even a much smaller motor would prove adequate. I agree with Rusty that it is more of a cultural thing. When I got my first S scale SHS SW-1 I couldn't believe the size of the motor in that thing it's probably 25-30% of the interior volume! Talk about overkill. With the right gearing you could power a kids electric powerwheel car with that thing.

Good Day,

Two motors in the SD70ACe’s sound great to me. For the 21^st Century Model railroaders these diesel locomotives will be perfect for pulling your favorite intermodal or grain train!

On a side note: I sure hope the Norfolk Southern Heritage SD70ACe’s are produced in S Scale!

Regards,

Swafford

Johnyspeed,

You are correct about the design and cost if applied correctly would make the two motor units just as good.  Track record is contrary though.  Using electronics to correct a problem that could have been designed out of the equation is silly.  I’ve used plenty of two motor units along with single motor units to know I like single motors with good truck gearing.  As far as Lionel spending the money to make slower geared vertical motor units I don’t see it.  They are still aiming at the AF crowd, which like the 3 rail crowd like fast running trains.  The irony is, their U33C design leaves plenty of room for DCC, which I will be using.  But I do give Lionel a big high 5, two thumbs up and what ever else because they are cataloging scale unpowered versions of the SD70ACe.  So I can still get one and run it with my SD60’s.

Greg

Two motor design leaves room for a larger speaker and baffle with more bass response in the fuel tank.

Carl

As I've stated, I'll reserve full judgement on the SD70's drive until when they come out. 

But, I can predict, the vocal hard-core scalers will site this as yet another example on how AF is only "toy trains."  They haven't (and won't) get over floating pilots...

Rusty

Rusty, you are correct in that the final product should be the standard for judgement and that the "hard-core" scalers will not buy this product.  Granted, Lionel has indicated that they are interested in going after this portion of the market but, for better or worse, I  think Lionel could not care less what this facet of the hobby does.  From what I can see, these guys are not very far removed from both the 2R and 3RS crowd in what they would like to see in an acceptable product.  They too have been very outspoken about getting what they want and Lionel has never really produced anything to their standards.  I have to give Lionel its due: they have products that are very good, as-is and they are a marketing powerhouse.  From what I have seen in 3 rail, Lionel will get you to like what they are already making WAY, WAY more frequently than they will develop products that the market claims it wants.  To me, this is why the U33C seemed to be such a departure for them.  Usually, Lionel will come at you with china drives, floating pilots, BEMF cruise control, Leagcy and RS 5 and guess what, it will be a sell-out!  IMO,  Lionel tends to know their markets as whole, better than the factional groups do and then proceedes to sell s#$t loads of product in it.  To be fair and honest to Lionel, their methods are very successful for them as well.   Lastly, at the end of the day, if I want a modern (I guess) diesel in S I have one prototype: the SD60.  IIRC, Overland made one in brass and American Models has both the Spartan cab and Wide Cab versions in plastic.  As a product, even with the quality issues, "china drives" and floating pilots, the new SD70ACE is probably a better overall package than either of those.   What this unfortunately means for the scale/Yahoo crowd is that lionel will proably get more existing 3 railers to buy their new S scale product than the scale/yahoo crowd will forefit and there goes their leverage. 

I couldn't agree more with CSXTroy. It is a minor miracle that Lionel has gone so far as offering scale wheels and couplers. The 3RS and 2 rail O crowd have been screaming for these features for years. Lionel has said on Facebook that they are looking into offering scale wheels for Steam engines going forward in S. And while they are taking scale modelers into account, I think they will likely fall short of going "all the way like the "hardcore scalers" would like. Quite frankly I would guess that there will be far more converts from other scales that will buy these new products than "hardcore s scalers". Lionel tends to know the market very well from a macro level. They need to sell as many trains as possible. Ironically, the more the market grows as a whole, the more likely it will be that products will be made for special interest groups in their niche.

Rusty, your insight is appreciated. We debated the drive system for some time internally, and simply could not get the features into the loco with a motor in a horizontal position.  As a point of reference, the U33 was way late and the delays were due to the drive system. The electronics and motors would not work without burning up.  I designed a completely new motor drive circuit for the U33, and by luck (and some long days) we made the U33 shipment last year.  It almost was placed on indefinite hold due to the motor burning up problem that seemed to be unsolvable.

If we could locate a horizontal motor in the shell area(not fuel tank), many of the problems we had with the U33 would have not appeared.  We have U-Joints in the U33 that take very sharp angles; and I had to run the loco (code tweak) much faster than I would have liked to keep it running smooth.  The Vertical motors will solve this for us by allowing the drive chain to have higher gear ratios and nicer low speed control.  And, we get to add the functionality we think folks want with the extra space.  I have tried to get the DCC connector spec'd in so that the TMCC electronics can be easily swapped out with DCC decoders; still working that crusade.  Our hope is that we can meet schedules and deliver a smooth running, great sounding, nice looking loco.

If folks are willing to let go of features, say smoke, perhaps sound, we could reconsider motor position in future products.  Folks, post your replies as to what the loco needs to have in the feature realm, and if there is any common theme, it may help us deliver a product closer to your expectations.

Jon, CTO Lionel LLC.

Jon, thank you for your explanation regarding the vertcal vs. horzontal drive issues.  I'll admit, it's got to be tough trying to satisfy both the Flyer/HiRail market and the Scale market.  I know myself and others who do appreciate your efforts to make Flyer "scale friendly." 

Even with deep flanges, I'm glad to see fresh, new products rather than just relying on classic Flyer designs.

I can only hope some of the more rabid S Scalers out there will eventually come to appreciate Lionel's efforts in introducing these totally new products into S.  If not, well it's THEIR loss, for they view the scale through a straw.

Now, about possibly scale wheels for the steam...

Rusty

Jon, 

Thank you for the inside info. Very much appreciated!

From my perspective I think that flexibility is the key. What you are doing with scale wheels and couplers being an option is great. I think if possible painted spacer blocks that could be screwed in to fix the pilots on diesels would be nice. Personally, I decided not to order a Y3a because no scale wheels are offered. Rail sounds is the best sounding system on the market. PLEASE don't take sounds out totally. Perhaps offer a conventional version without electronics for those dc/DCC users. A generic socket like SHS uses that supports all electronics would be the way to go IMHO. If you could implement those changes then you would have the flexibility to cover the whole S market from Flyer to Scale and from DC, DCC, to Legacy. Then nobody gets left out. The question is, is that feasible? Here are some features I would like to see:

Scale wheel steam (perhaps leave blind center drivers though for tighter radii)

Spacer blocks to fix diesel pilots

Conventional versions with generic electronics plug

Bigger speakers. Sound is a huge reason I buy Lionel products

Better slow speed operations

Operational front couplers on steamers

I could live without smoke in diesels

If possible, shrink Legacy/RS electronics. I am a fan of smaller engines. 

Thanks for asking for input.

Jon,

I don't want to lose smoke, railsounds or legacy but I also don't run scale to where I would consider the compromise of losing that as good trade off.  I would also agree that you can't please everyone all the time, and some of the hardcore scale guys seem beyond reasonable efforts to please (the craziness of the Yahoo s scale board of late is prof of that).  Regardless, I am sure that the SD70's will be sell outs like the Challengers were (I am in for a few of them).

That being said, making a model that is as scale friendly to swap out parts (DCC and what not) will only grow S and give Lionel a big piece of the pie in the future of S.  I think good old A.C. Gilbert would be proud to see American Flyer making the advancements that it has under Lionel.  

Also Jon, thanks for coming on to the S gauge side of the forum to share your incite on the work Lionel is putting into American Flyer.   S gauge still does not have the fan fair and product selection as O, but I don't think there is anyone that can not feel optimistic about the future of S gauge!  Its nice to see Flyer coming out of the shadows so to speak.

Ben

I am curious, what are the track systems, especially turnouts, folks are using when the scale wheels are installed?  I want to set up a more extensive test layout here, and am hoping I don't have to lay track!

Jon,

first I would like to thank you for personally taking the time to resond to questions and also to Lionel for making a valid attempt at a horizontal drive system.  That Lionel was willing to see this concept carried out, in spite of the difficulties, to a final product impressess me very much.

In regards to features, I tend to agree with Jonnyspeed and Notinwi. The only thing I would suggest in regards to fixed pilots vs. swinging ones is this:  May we have the type of set-up used on the Vision Line Hybrids where the pilot is body mounted independently of the truck, yet can pivot and be self centering as needed.  Personally, I have always felt this was the ideal setup as it allowed for the best of both worlds.  On the model I had, to fix the pilot, I simply removed the body and tightened 2 screws yet someone who needed more flexability could leave it as-is and have no trouble.  If it was drilled for a Kadee box, I think it would be the solution that could give everyone what they want in one package.

CSXTroy is right. I keep forgetting about the Vision line style pilots. That would be the best solution, I agree.

As for track, go take a look at Tomalco code 100 track. He makes a variety of RTR turnouts, flex, and crossings. Also, Shinohara has flex and a few turnouts as well I believe. No need to hand lay unless you want to. I ordered some pre-made #6 code 100 turnouts from a guy on eBay that builds them from Fast Tracks jigs. They work wonderfully. Simply the best running turnouts I have ever used in any scale.

Jon, I posted your information about the SD70 drive on the Yahoo S Scale board in order to share the information.  Hopefully, they won't have another nervous breakdown over it.

I'm encouraged that you're trying to get a DCC plug included, if not in the SD70, in other future products.

Perhaps the solution for scale folks would be a combination of things previously mentioned:  Conventional DC (w/DCC plug), scale wheels, fixed pilot w/matching spacer and maybe even a pair of Kadee 805's already mounted.  Just a thought...

I believe a valid part of the scale resistance stems from having to pay for electronics of little use to the typical S Scaler that needs to be removed and going through the trouble to sell the electronics off.  And if a bunch of Legacy modules begin appearing on ebay or the like, might that also create a negative image?

I wish I could give you a definitive profile of what the S Scale market is like, but the best I can say is "we're complicated."

Thank you for soliciting our input.

Rusty

As a scale modeler in S (albeit a lazy one), I will say right up front: I think Lionel's increased S scale activity is a GOOD THING for S scale.  A very good thing.  It can only help all facets of S scale for it to have more product selection and more exposure.  It would be WONDERFUL if those of other scales came into S scale.  It truly is the "perfect size".

Even though my interests are more in 1st Generation diesels, I applaud Lionel for trying to accommodate scale modelers.  Though I am not going to be purchasing the SD70Ace, I am already interested in the new cylindrical hopper w/scale wheels. (I can add Kadee-type couplers.)  Detailed rolling stock in prototypical liveries that have scale wheels and can receive Kadee-type couplers is DEFINITELY a way you can get into us "scale guys" pocket books!

I wish the best of success to Lionel and their increasing S scale commitment.

Andre

I'm with you Andre. I am really hoping for some smaller 1st and 2nd gen diesels. The way I see it, Lionel can pretty much scale down all of their O scale models to S so we have a lot to look forward to. I would go absolutely broke with GP or SD 7/9s, Alco RSs, or in particular a GP-30. I would be on the hook for quite a few of those. China drive and all :-)

I, for one, wouldn't a couple of the FM H16-44's in S. (Hint, hint...)

Rusty

I own one of the first issued two-motor Legacy SD70ACe UP Hertitage engines (the Katy). It runs as smooth as silk, has great sounds, lighting, and smoke. What I wish for in S gauge is the duplicate of that engine in every way, rescaled of course. I would prefer to not have swinging pilots, but I have found that this is not a deal killer with the U33C. Making the engines 'friendlier' for the DCC folks is fine, but if push comes to shove, I wish to (continue) to see full boat full-featured Legacy versions for hi-rail use. The same with steam.

Also, I prefer Odyssey II over 'AF speed control' based upon my experience with the L-AF Big Boy (and my fleet of Legacy 0 gauge locomotives) compared to the newer U33C and the Challenger. The Odyssey-equipped Big Boy is more oblivious to the occassional unavoidable irregularities of Gilbert trackwork and turnouts than are the two newer engines. Of the three, the Big Boy has the smoothest very low speed performance (i.e., "Roll" on Cab-2) and does not require higher momentum settings to accomplish this. Interestingly, the sound quality in the Big Boy is the best of the three, too.

Thanks for listening, Jon.

Bob Bubeck

Anyone know if the non-powered UP Heritage "Building America" loco will have smoke?

From my investigation, I am told that the SD70 *will* have the pivoting trucks just like the Vision Hybrids...

Verrrrrry Interesting...

Rusty

Good Day Jon,

How about Lionel offering a set of 21^st Century Santa Fe SD70ACe’s?

Regards,

Frank

That is AWESOME news Jon! I will be ordering a couple extra now just due to that alone! Can't wait to see them!

Jon, just so I understand, are you refering to the body mounted, pivoting pilots or just the trucks?  If it is confirmed about the pilots, I'm in for this model BIG TIME.  I thought the Pilot set up on the Vision Line Hybrids was the coolest thing I had seen on an O scale train in some time.  I was able to fix the front one for the lead engine and then let the rear one float with the coupler allowing me to go around some pretty small curves and still look good.  If it had been drilled for a Kadee box, it would be perfect.  I still contend that this is THE ideal solution for both scale and Flyer operators to get what they like regarding pilot design contained in one package. Count me in for 5 or 6 of the SD70ACE's if they have this feature.  It is just that good.

P.S. You may want to tap Swafford to reccomend the paint schemes as he has been on a serious hot streak lately!   I would have never thought of a 21st Century Santa Fe SD70ACE but that one looks killer!