Two trains onsame track?

I have5 Lionel bump & go Trolleys and like to run 2 or more on the same track, but none of them run at the same speed...I tried resistors but it didn't work????

@gene maag posted:

I have5 Lionel bump & go Trolleys and like to run 2 or more on the same track, but none of them run at the same speed...I tried resistors but it didn't work????

Gene,

I'm assuming that your trolleys are not command controlled, i.e. neither controlled by TMCC/Legacy nor PS2/PS3, but with a traditional transformer.

Where did you place the resistors in your attempt to equalize speeds?

Mike

@Jibbs posted:

Well you guys are awesome! But I’m not good with electrical circuitry cause I’m color blind! I’ll have a friend help me with that! I just wanted two onsame track! Could they go in opposite directions?

Yes.

It is more of a childish fun activity but on a single track mainline I have short trains running conventionally  in opposite directions with them passing each other on long double ended siding.  I just cycle the F-N-R action to an opposite action in one or two trains depending on how many trains I run on the single track loop.

You can also set many trains to only run in one direction.

The loop runs around 200' of basement walls with passing sidings every 120  degrees.

Dallee also sells a package where this action can be automatic.

I don't think it should matter on the speed of a single unit like the trolleys as long as they all go in the same direction and probably need to have the slowest in the front with enough sections so that the fastest can coast to a stop on  a red signal from the block ahead.  If you are trying to do station stops, it probably will require more electronics for more precise stops, I think one per block. They acted like relays only electronic, no points to chatter.  Let us know how it goes?

Dave

In 2007, I had a published article which described a simple IR detector based setup for running two conventional power trains on the same loop of track. As an alternative, two trains on the same track loop is easy with the new wireless systems.

Do you still have access to the article?

Yes.

Ok well good. Is it on the O Gauge or Classic Toy Train archive?

Look for October 2007 CTT.

First thanks to everybody for helping. I found and printed the article from CTT mentioned, it might be the way to go.
Got my relays in the mail today with mounts. See image of the top showing terminal placement and the other a copy from my old manual. I think I have marked the terminals on the copy correctly, would someone be kind enough to check please?

Looking at the schematic and your relay I believe this would be right:

It's important for correct operation to note that while terminal 5 is contacting terminal 1, at the same time, terminal 6 is contacting terminal 2 in the relay's normally closed state.

When energized, terminal 5 is connected to terminal 3 and terminal 6 is connected to terminal 4 as shown on the diagram on the top of the relay housing:

There's not enough information provided to determine which relay terminals correspond to which screw terminals on the socket base.  It may be best to confirm with a continuity check between each terminal socket slot and its corresponding screw terminal.

@SteveH, the breakout of the terminal base is a standard PTF08A which has this layout:

Hey thanks for helping, I was a few terminals off. The socket base is numbered I marked each terminal worn a piece of tape, numbers on the socket are tiny. I will verify with an DVOM.
I am going to set up a simple oval for testing and notes, will report back.
Also will try out the article from Oct2007 CTT,

@bmoran4 posted:

@SteveH, the breakout of the terminal base is a standard PTF08A which has this layout:

Thank you for this information.

I have run 2 trains on the same track about 30 years ago. If you are adept at soldering, you place a heavy duty diode inline with the loco center rail pickup inside the engine. And on the other engine, solder a heavy duty diode but with diode in the opposite polarity. Then on my ZW transformer, I placed the same diode on the voltage output of the left throttle (A) and placed a 2nd diode on the right throttle (D).

You then have 2 separate throttle controls, with left controlling one engine and right throttle controlling the other engine. No wiring blocks to worry about. The engines will not get full power because they are running with the diodes, but you do get totally separate control for 2 engines running at their own speed. Also need to turn off e- unit as I recall.

Carl J

Very clever approach to the two trains on one track question.  Might have an issue with locos that don't like DC.  Again, can't help but point out that today's approach using command control or dual capability wireless seems so much simpler.

Hi Bob,

Agree completely that modern wireless Command Control like Lionel introduced makes it very easy to get 2 trains ( and more!) on the same track working at different speeds without interfering with other locos/ speed direction or need of all the wiring blocks and relays. That is why I felt it was the “Holy Grail” to see Wireless command control come out.

Carl J

@Carl J posted:

modern wireless Command Control like Lionel introduced makes it very easy to get 2 trains ( and more!) on the same track working at different speeds without interfering with other locos/ speed direction or need of all the wiring blocks and relays.

What is being done here with relays and whatnot is so much more than what Command Control can offer alone.

Command Control does not have this automatic signal control nor automatically keeps trains from colliding. Once this setup is up and running, no user input is required.

@Carl J posted:

I have run 2 trains on the same track about 30 years ago. If you are adept at soldering, you place a heavy duty diode inline with the loco center rail pickup inside the engine. And on the other engine, solder a heavy duty diode but with diode in the opposite polarity. Then on my ZW transformer, I placed the same diode on the voltage output of the left throttle (A) and placed a 2nd diode on the right throttle (D).

You then have 2 separate throttle controls, with left controlling one engine and right throttle controlling the other engine. No wiring blocks to worry about. The engines will not get full power because they are running with the diodes, but you do get totally separate control for 2 engines running at their own speed. Also need to turn off e- unit as I recall.

Carl J

Can you run other trains without any problems and does the transformer diode affect the speed of other engines?

Hi Gene,

Your question on running other trains without diodes is an interesting one. Once you have added the diodes to both ZW throttles, trying to run any engines that do not have the diode installed, will mean that the unconverted engines put on the track will operate from both A and D throttles on the ZW. The unconverted engines without diodes do not run “separate” as will the engines with diodes installed. So you no longer have totally 2 separate engines running from 2 separate ZW throttles anymore. The ZW throttles with installed diodes will impact the top speed of both the engines with and without diodes. The speed will be slower overall with diodes installed on the ZW and engine. The system is now work with “pulsed DC” for the positive or negative part of the full AC wave form.
As I recall, the speed of the converted engines probably running 1/2 speed which was still plenty of power to go up my old layout grades.

Carl J

I have decided to go with Bob Walkers idea from CTT October 2007. It’s very straight to the point, not complicated, the necessary items will arrive next week.
This does not mean I am giving up on relay operations, will set up a large separate test oval and figure out how it’s done.
Hopefully will find the time to drive to Chantilly, never been to that show. Don’t get up to the area much any more for one simple reason, traffic. I remember as a child watching the trains run parallel to Washington Blvd in Arlington during the 60’s, later on when 66 opened up it all went down the sewer.

Parts arrived yesterday, I have attached a color copy of the article. I should have all the colors marked correctly, the lighter color appears to be grey, white is white, black should be the darker color and red/green appear to be tied in together.

Using a ZW transformer and looking at the drawing since it shows Red/Green and Black to 12V AC or DC I am confused  as to placement of Blue, Red/Green and Black. Blue could go to A or D (throttles on transformer) Red/Green could go to B or C and Black (common) would go to U   am I correct?

It might be easier to have a separate 12V AC power supply for Red/Green, Blue appears to be supplying power to all relays and track power/left/right section.

What do you think? I think I have it correct. Used to working with automobile schematics, parts manuals, 

@Carl J posted:

I have run 2 trains on the same track about 30 years ago. If you are adept at soldering, you place a heavy duty diode inline with the loco center rail pickup inside the engine. And on the other engine, solder a heavy duty diode but with diode in the opposite polarity. Then on my ZW transformer, I placed the same diode on the voltage output of the left throttle (A) and placed a 2nd diode on the right throttle (D).

You then have 2 separate throttle controls, with left controlling one engine and right throttle controlling the other engine. No wiring blocks to worry about. The engines will not get full power because they are running with the diodes, but you do get totally separate control for 2 engines running at their own speed. Also need to turn off e- unit as I recall.

Carl J

I did this with great success. Two postwar engines, one the Santa Fe 2353, the other a Berkshire 726. Stumbled across an article by sheer luck that was written up in Popular Science, think it was December 1961 or 1962. Article explained how to fabricate a "diode holder", I made one out of a plastic electrical outlet box with a cover plate. Will have to post an image when I have time.

Photos of Alan's home-made converter box and the 1962 Popular Science article can be found with a Google search.  Even though this approach was published in a major print magazine, I would be concerned about reverse voltage feeding back into the secondary if the two transformers / handles are set to widely different voltages.

The problem of feedback can be avoided by employing synchronous rectification as developed for this application and described in detail by Bob Nelson (Lionelsoni) who was one of the most prolific posters on the Classic Toy Trains Forum.  That forum has* a detailed verbal description of the circuit, containing (i think) a minor error, but no schematic.  I've analyzed Mr. Nelson's posts, and I believe some of the confusion is because his system evolved over time.  For example, in early descriptions of the circuit he mentions powering the NPN and PNP transistors from small Radio Shack auxiliary transformers. In later posts, he mentions powering them from an extra tap off of the secondary of the same transformer he was using to control the trains.

For many of us who operate "pre-digital" trains on smaller layouts, I think Mr. Nelson's polarity-based system is nearly ideal.  It allows independent control of speed and direction for two trains per power district.  It requires no expensive proprietary equipment.  No fragile anntennas, no issues with signal propagation.  No delicate electronics that suddenly fail due to spikes or derailments, etc.  Frankly, I'm surprised that his approach wasn't better publicized, and isn't more widely employed.

Due to the lack of a schematic, I didn't build the circuit myself.  But some O gaugers in the Austin, TX area visited Bob's layout when it was up. They reported that, like a sweet and mysterious O gauge Stradivarius, his system worked just as described.  I've thought many times about asking the bright minds here on the OGR Forum to help me recreate an accurate schematic from his verbal description.  Perhaps I'll start a new thread on the Electrical sub-forum for this purpose.

*I just checked, and as of 6/25/2024 it appears that the CTT forum is down.  I'm hoping that it's just because of the recent sale/migration of Kalmbach Publishing; it would be a shame if that resource were forever lost to history.  Fortunately, I've archived all of Bob Nelson's posts about his polarity-based approach to independent two-train operation.  If anyone is interested in reading about this or working with me to build the circuit, please contact me via the info in my profile.

Here is how 2 trains on 1 track was installed on my layout 44 years.  It uses track blocks and relays.  The article is on Page 1, post 8c

https://ogrforum.com/topic/evo...47#58728032775522747

Two Direction Automatic 2 Train Operation on 1 Loop  -  Manual and Automatic Relayed Track Loop Operation System

Manual Operating 2 trains on 1 track

Two trains on one loop can be operated Manually.  This is possible as all track sections except for Mark switches are blocked and controlled with by slide switches on the control panel.

The engineer has to watch the trains and when one starts getting close to overtaking the other, wait to the trailing trains is on a track block and throw the blocking switch and leave it un powered until the lead train gets ahead, then reinstall the power to the track.  This most easily done and seen using one of the two blocked train sections at the ends of each loop.  In this operation both trains should have eUnits and have the eUnits locked in forward to keep the stopped train from cycling into neutral or reverse.  Marx and some Lionel engines have two way reversing devices (R F R F) and can not be used for this method of 2 trains on 1 track operation without turning the switching the section blocking switch (after stopping the engine), ON which will give Reverse and then OFF, and the ON a second time which will give Forward operation.

Two Direction Automatic Relayed 2 Trains on 1 Track Construction and Operation

This relayed system does not require adding a diode to each engine you wish to run on 2 trains on 1 track

This is a neat "Old School" 1940s and 1950s method of automating 2 trains on 1 track using a relay to keep one train from over running the other when operating 2 trains on 1 track.  The book, mentioned in Post 5,  “Operating O and O27 Trains”,  "A Comprehensive Guide to the Design, Construction and Operation of a Layout For Lionel Trains " edited by Maury D. Klein and Bruce C. Greenberg, 1976, 242 pages was instrumental for me learning about building an automatic relayed 2 trains on 1 track systems (See page 220 of book below).  I learned of using variable resistors in the circuit to keep the eUnit from cycling when paused (see page 222 of book below).  These instructions were used to allow me to install two Automatic 2 trains on 1 track systems, one on inside and one on the outside loops of my layout.  I developed a circuit using one double throw, double pole slide switch to allow 2 train on 1 track to operate in two directions, CW or CCW for each loop and installed the switches.

Automatic 2 trains on 1 track is desirable as it does not require constant engineer attention and the locking the train engine eUnits in forward.  This system also has selection switches that allow 2 trains on 1 track operation in CW or CCW directions for each loop.  This automatic 2 trains on 1 track system was build with the original 1977 train board construction in Kingston, Jamaica.

Both the inside and outside loop were wired for two trains to operate on each loop, by using 12 vac relay and 5 ohm 25 watt variable resistor for each loop.  The resistor is necessary to allow a small amount of power to go to the engine to keep the reversing eUnit from cycling.  Two way reversing eUnits cycle FRFRFR and three way eUnits cycle FNRNFNR.  Most three way eUnits will have a switch to lock the eUnit in one position and function and must be locked in F.  I have several engines with two way eUnits so a resistor is a must for me.

Each loop already had a section of 4 or 5 track sections at each end of the both loops.  A train sensing track section was make by modifying a section of track to have one outside rail insulated from the metal ties with electrical tape between the rail and metal ties and a insulated plastic pins were installed in each end of the insulated section and a wire was soldered to each insulated rail track of the section.  This insulated track was installed on bottom straight part of each loop to act as the switch to trigger the 12 vac relay to cut the selected isolated track section, to have a reduced voltage to the 5 ohm resistor being in that circuit.  This will make the behind train, that is over taking the train on the insulated track section, causing it to stop but still have voltage to not let the e-unit cycle.  When the front train passed the insulated track section, full voltage is applied to the rear train and it resumes running.

Below is a circuit I used to wire the double throw, double pole slide switch that provides operation of trains in CW or CCW directions.  I had to look at the bottom of the control board to figure out how wired the DPDT switch as there was not an original diagram.  I was real smart in those days!

The DPDT direction switches can be seen in picture below, between the CC and CCW curved arrows.

Two other switches labeled RELAYS allow the relays to be turned off when 2 train on 1 loop operation is not desired.  The diagram shows these switches right above the word COMMON.  The LW transformers have no trouble handling two train operation as they are the largest wattage single train operating transformer Lionel made.

These two loops, with 2 trains operating on each loop, work very well.  Since the layout has rather short loops. the trains must have engines that use nearly the same voltage and amperage to run and have nearly the same number of cars per train so speeds are rather close together.  The number of cars can be adjusted on which ever train needs help keeping a close speed to the other train.

Picture of one 5 ohm, 25 watt variable Resistors for two train per loop operation to keep e-units from cycling when idled by the relay.  The silver band with a screw is adjusted along the resistor to get a 5 ohm reading.

Relays (under a plastic cover) for two trains per loop Operation - to halt chasing train when sensor track trips relay

40 some years ago in my youth I connected the e unit in a diesel to the horn relay. The made it possible control the direction of the engine independent of other engines on the same track. Made double heading much easier. Made the engine quieter as well.

In regards to adjusting the speed of individual trolleys, consider capacitors instead of resistors, the plus being they don't get hot.  I have not experimented using a motor that is doing work, but I use caps to slow down those 4 to 6 inch 110VAC muffin style cooling fans.  1 to 3uf seems to be the range for the fans, at 5uf they run at full speed, but at Lionel track voltage, those values may be quite different.  You might have to try a couple sizes to get the speeds to match, slowing the faster one to match the slower one.  If you get several in .5uf, you can put them in series or parallel to find the capacitance that works, and either leave that in place or add up the cap numbers and order one of that value if available.  Capacitance adds when in parallel, but divides in series by their number if all the same size, two1uf caps in series give you .5uf.  Ones rated at 50VDC or more will handle the track voltage.

A long, long time ago on a layout since forgotten, I had two Lionel bump-and-go trolleys running on a same length of track.  There were bumpers on each end and a passing track located in between.  The passing siding consisted of two fixed-direction RH switches that I built from O-32 tubular track.  By fixed-direction I mean that a trolley approaching the points can only go straight and not taking the divergent route.

I've reconstructed the basic layout of the trolley line showing the electrical implementation.  No relays or complex circuitry was involved in controlling the trolleys.  Power/center rail was continuous.  The outer rails were used to control the start/stop and go of the trolleys.

The Lionel trolleys (and gang car) used a worm drive and would stop almost instantaneously when they entered the doubly insulated section.  Depending on how far your trolley coasts you might have to lengthen this section.  I think it would be possible to run three trolleys.

This is how it works.

1. Trolley 1 (T1) is stopped on the doubly insulated track (DI).
2. Trolley 2 (T2) enters the siding occupied by T1.
3. T2 completes ground for T1 via insulated rail.
4. T1 takes off and leaves the siding.
5. T2 continues down siding stopping in the DI once occupied by T1.
6. T1 travels to the end-of-line, hits bumper, and returns entering unoccupied siding.
7. T1 completes ground path for T2.
8. T2 leaves siding.
9. T1 continues to DI and stops.

The one-way switches I constructed out of straight and curved pieces of sectional track.  I combined individual straight and curved rails forming the switch cutting one of each to created the frog and stock rails.  The metal ties were used to keep all three rails in gauge. gaps were created to allow wheels to pass.  Plastic was poured between the rails to form guide grooves for the wheels and supports for the rollers.

If I can find the pair I will add pictures.

Jan

PS. Please check by circuitry.  This is from a 50 year old memory.

PPS.  This will work it a loop.  It will be necessarily to adjust the length of the insulated blocks to accommodate the length of the train.

@Terry Luft posted:

40 some years ago in my youth I connected the e unit in a diesel to the horn relay...