ugh.... zinc pest in lionel truck

Isn't quality control a wonderful thing, especially in today's market!!!

These trucks have been on back order since November at Lionel.  I was originally told they would be here in February.  I am waiting on  12 of them for Santa Fe scout set bought new with every one of the trucks having a similar results as shown by Mike.

Mike.....   Thanks for that info.......  I can now add a NYC Baggage car to the affected cars

Mike

You think that's bad, my brand new Amtrak Cabbage NPCU has a coupler already rotting right out of the box!  I was hoping to at least get to run it a few times...

Three out of 7 Legacy diesels I purchased in the last 3 years had wide gaps between the walkway and the car body. The latest LionChief+ diesel was a real hassle getting fixed by Lionel - so much so that it pushed me into the arms of MTH - 2 locos in one month and more to follow.

ns1001 posted:

Three out of 7 Legacy diesels I purchased in the last 3 years had wide gaps between the walkway and the car body. The latest LionChief+ diesel was a real hassle getting fixed by Lionel - so much so that it pushed me into the arms of MTH - 2 locos in one month and more to follow.

MTH has had the same problem with zinc pest in the past. The heavyweights made around 2005 had trucks that now look identical to the one pictured above. No company with the posible exception of Pre Bachmann Williams, has been free of this problem including Atlas and K-Line.

Pete

Norton posted:

ns1001 posted:

Three out of 7 Legacy diesels I purchased in the last 3 years had wide gaps between the walkway and the car body. The latest LionChief+ diesel was a real hassle getting fixed by Lionel - so much so that it pushed me into the arms of MTH - 2 locos in one month and more to follow.

MTH has had the same problem with zinc pest in the past. The heavyweights made around 2005 had trucks that now look identical to the one pictured above. No company with the posible exception of Williams, has been free of this problem including Atlas and K-Line.

Pete

Sorry to be the one to inform you, Peter, but Williams also has been affected by zinc pest/rot. The Peter Witt trolley from Williams by Bachmann is the latest to fall to the zinc pest/rot plague as attested to by this thread Peter Witt Williams Trolley Zinc Rot on the Bachmann Trains board shows.

This story tells me that there is going to be a big replacement market developing for aluminum truck replacement part. With all the money you pay these days for trains; can't aluminum be used instead of zinc? That pot metal stuff that they use is really cheap crap.

"That pot metal stuff that they use is really cheap crap."

No, it is not. Zinc/Zamak is used worldwide, has been for decades, is from what those sainted PW Lionel/AF steamers were made. Badly manufactured (that is, contaminated) zinc castings are indeed crap, just like anything else that can be badly done - trains, hamburgers, cheap underwear.

==========

"but Williams also has been affected by zinc pest/rot."

Yes - a million years ago I had some Williams Heavyweight truck break into several pieces. I managed to epoxy them back together and they have been stable ever since (I sold them to a friend - yes, with full disclosure - and they are still in one piece). I haven't bought new production Williams much in a long time, so I don't know how they are these days.

Worst case I ever had were the trucks on a brass 3rd Rail war emergency boxcar. They turned a beautiful dove gray all over, then proceeded to crumble over a period of a few months. You could practically hear it. Even the wheels split open.   Steel axles and coupler release armatures were fine.... Beautiful car; re-equipped with some modern, low-bolster Lionel trucks. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You think that's bad, my brand new Amtrak Cabbage NPCU has a coupler already rotting right out of the box!  I was hoping to at least get to run it a few times...

Ouch!! 

Will it be covered by the warranty?

bigtruckpete posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You think that's bad, my brand new Amtrak Cabbage NPCU has a coupler already rotting right out of the box!  I was hoping to at least get to run it a few times...

Ouch!! 

Will it be covered by the warranty?

It sure better be, it's only two days old!

ns1001 posted:

Three out of 7 Legacy diesels I purchased in the last 3 years had wide gaps between the walkway and the car body. The latest LionChief+ diesel was a real hassle getting fixed by Lionel - so much so that it pushed me into the arms of MTH - 2 locos in one month and more to follow.

Good Luck with that change. Wait until you wait a year!

I have a truck for an 18" Lionel HW that disintegrated in the same way.  I emailed the Parts Dept. about a month ago and they are indeed out of stock on the sideframes/trucks. They will not have any more in stock until they run more HW cars.   One can only guess when that will be.  It is a real bummer.

I only issue I see when the trucks come in stock we will need to purchase a complete truck as the side frames are not listed separately.......  This would save us money for those that have a fleet of these cars, luck fully I only have two cars so far that need trucks, I still need to check My Milwaukee Road Heavyweight cars to see if those are ok........

My tale of woe: two new in the box K-Line GG1's purchased in 2005, taken out of the boxes, inspected, and test run for less than 5 minutes each. Then photographed and returned to their boxes. Opened in 2016 to consider which one to sell as i was never going to get around to running them. The side frames on the power trucks were in various stages of disintegration. Of course, no spares were available, but Lionel ones could be modified to fit. Sold one complete chassis with some new Lionel side frames and full disclosure a few months ago.

Less than pure metallurgy in products from China is common in things other than our toys. In the latter years of my 46 in the imported auto parts industry we found too many bad brake rotors from China; they crumbled (during use) due to bad steel. This was a little more serious than side frames on our toys crumbling. Cooking is one of my other interests, and i refuse to use stainless cook wear from China for fear of what impurities may lurk in the steel.  I expect  that in this era of government deregulation problems of this sort might well increase.

Prewar Lionel famously had issues with contaminated zinc alloys including their premier scale Hudson. Really nothing new! :-(

Zinc alloys seem to be MORE prone to this problem; aluminum might be a better choice.

Very true, Art, but..... metallurgy has become significantly better in the last 80+ years. It's just a matter of having the will to expend the effort and monetary resources to do it right.

If makers of our trains continue offshore production without proper oversight and QC, advances in metallurgy are a moot point. :-(

Mike,

After seeing your post and responding to it , I called Lionel again and sent a letter about the exstensive time it was taking to get the needed parts.  Their response was that they had the side frames but not the trucks.  So they are shipping to me as we speak.  I wish they would have offered this solution much earlier, but what is funny is when my cars were sent to Lionel for repair, they didn't want to replace them, only the entire truck.

regardless, I am excited they are coming and finally get to use my new set.   This might be an avenue for your fix as well.  If you need a part #, I can dig it out and send it to you.

Mike

I had Williams before Bachmann glossy finish era get zinc pest on Side frames on a GG1 and some freight cars.

D500 posted:

"That pot metal stuff that they use is really cheap crap."

No, it is not. Zinc/Zamak is used worldwide, has been for decades, is from what those sainted PW Lionel/AF steamers were made. Badly manufactured (that is, contaminated) zinc castings are indeed crap, just like anything else that can be badly done - trains, hamburgers, cheap underwear.

 

It is true that Zamak castings have been widely used for decades and they can be made right.  Some firearm frames have been cast with that material and they don't "rot". Trouble is (as you point out) castings of that alloy need to be made free from contaminates.  Asian manufactures largely use recycled metals. As such aluminum is a better casting choice. Even with impurities it mainly becomes softer but not prone to complete deterioration like contaminated Zamac. Aluminum castings are better but  a few cents more expensive and do not fit the mentality of "use the cheapest low bidder for the highest profit" . Model trains are expensive and should only be made using the finest quality materials but tell that to the bean counters.

Here is a site comparing die casting with Aluminum and Zamac.

Brillcast

modeltrainsparts posted:

My tale of woe: two new in the box K-Line GG1's purchased in 2005, taken out of the boxes, inspected, and test run for less than 5 minutes each. Then photographed and returned to their boxes. Opened in 2016 to consider which one to sell as i was never going to get around to running them. The side frames on the power trucks were in various stages of disintegration. Of course, no spares were available, but Lionel ones could be modified to fit. Sold one complete chassis with some new Lionel side frames and full disclosure a few months ago.

Less than pure metallurgy in products from China is common in things other than our toys. In the latter years of my 46 in the imported auto parts industry we found too many bad brake rotors from China; they crumbled (during use) due to bad steel. This was a little more serious than side frames on our toys crumbling. Cooking is one of my other interests, and i refuse to use stainless cook wear from China for fear of what impurities may lurk in the steel.  I expect  that in this era of government deregulation problems of this sort might well increase.

I'm sorry o say that all the regulations in the world coming out of DC is not going to have the lest bit of effect on China. They just could care less!

C W Burfle posted:

Here is a site comparing die casting with Aluminum and Zamac.

Brillcast

To summarize for those who didn't want to click through the link, zinc die casting holds many advantages over aluminum, including the cost of tooling, heat dissipation and production costs.

Manufacturers already know this. Unless you've delved into manufacturing yourself, you probably have not considered any of this.

Thanks for the link, C W.

The answer for zinc rot is to ensure the manufacturer is acting responsibly. And it has nothing to do with metal recycling, which has been done for decades globally. The process is what matters and adherence to standards. It can be done.

Hump Yard Mike posted:

Mike,

After seeing your post and responding to it , I called Lionel again and sent a letter about the exstensive time it was taking to get the needed parts.  Their response was that they had the side frames but not the trucks.  So they are shipping to me as we speak.  I wish they would have offered this solution much earlier, but what is funny is when my cars were sent to Lionel for repair, they didn't want to replace them, only the entire truck.

regardless, I am excited they are coming and finally get to use my new set.   This might be an avenue for your fix as well.  If you need a part #, I can dig it out and send it to you.

Mike

Mike, Please do send the part number

Mike

Truck part # is 6105522005

Mike

looks like they where out of black, but I just ordered the silver 6105545005, painting them black is no problem

recived the sideframes today..... now to paint them black.....

Atleast after the prewar zinc issues, Lionel figured it out for the duration of the postwar and pretty much the rest of the USA production era.  Maybe another good reason to start moving production back state side as time and ablities permit.  Glad you got parts Mike, easy to respray the correct color.  It is a shame in this day and age that companies have to be so freaking cheap, or just do not bloody care about thier metal processes.  Even my 1960 vintage All Nation NW2, which is pretty much nothing but die cast zamac is fine, as is all of my post war steamers and late 1940's F3's.  No excuse for this problem still exhisting in todays production.    Mike