Unexpected motor in the Lionel 2343 Santa Fe F3 I just bought

Early  version of the 2343 motor.  It was improved upon to become what your were expecting in the later versions.

So, not misrepresented by the seller. I feel better! Is this motor called "vertical"? Horizontal?

This is a horizontal motor. What probably looks different to you is the brush holder assembly. The picture is of the rear motor.

After 70 years it can probably stand a cleaning, brushes, and fresh lubrication to restore its famous stump pulling power.

Bogie

Love the old "growler" horizontal motors. Those 2343 Santa Fe and 2344 New York Central engines didn't need any sound system. They just sounded like POWER when charging around the layout. LOVE THEM.

That horizontal motor is from 2333, manufactured during 1948-1949.  Does it have magnetraction? If not, then someone put a 2343 shell on a 2333 chassis/motor or pushed out the 2333 number plates and put in 2343 number plates. Anyhow, 2333 is still a very good locomotive. 

I did not know that the early motors were different.  Thanks for the heads up.  

That's a 2333 motor from 1948-49.   Unfortunate but it happens; in my selling days I went through lots of collections with f-3 shells and frames mixed up.  

From my experience these motors run a tad slower than the later horizontal motors, but it's still a Lionel design so it should last until the year 2290 or so

The unit does have magnetraction.

The vertical motors weren't put into the F3s untill the 2353 series came out when the metal screens on top were done away with too. I have several 2343 s all wit magnatraction. ANd one of them was one I got brand new in 1950 from Santa Claus and it also required my Father and Grandfather to switch from o\027 to regular O gauge.  The next year I got the matching B unit to make it an ABA. With the four aluminum Pass cars. I believe the 2353 series of F units came out in 1952

Carl C posted:

The vertical motors weren't put into the F3s untill the 2353 series came out...

All 2353 models have horizontal motors with the double-worm power trucks.

The 2353 Santa Fe, 2354 NYC, and the 2355 WP all had horizontal motors. The vertical motor was first used in 1955 in the 2367 Walbash and 2363 Illinois Central.

Thanks to all for the informative replies! I am kind of back where I started though. This train has magnetraction (sticks to the track when I pick it up - and wheels are clean!) Is it likely a legit 2343 or a swapped chassis? I've searched this forum and Google and can't find a categorical rundown of when motors switched over. 

If Lionel is like other manufacturers, when they introduced the 2343 they used up remaining stock of their old 2333 motors in some of the new models. Is that a known Lionel practice from those days?

Cplyons, I have one with the same thing.  It appears to be a transition piece where Lionel was using their leftover 1948 style motor when first issuing their Magnatraction diesels in 1950.  Yes, there is Magnatraction, but that was added in the trucks, so using an old style motor would not have affected that.  When I first noticed mine, I checked the shell and it is clearly a 1950 style shell, hence my supposition of using up old style motors.

Ah ha! How did you identify the 1950 style shell?

I will have to go back to look up the details, but there are changes for example in the GM decal size and location.  You need to go to some of the reference books to follow them.

OK thanks.

The first PW Santa Fe F3 with the vertical motors was the 2383 with black trucks. Had dual motors. Not particularly attractive to me personally...

Sorry, but I have to ask about the horn.
I think see what looks like a black plastic spacer underneath the mounting bracket of the horn. It looks like it raises the horn up to clear the motor.
I have not opened up a 2343 in a while, but I thought the metal mounting brackets of the horn were long enough to be mounted directly to the frame.

Is that horn and spacer correct?

The first PW Santa Fe F3 with a vertical motor was the 2243 A-B with black trucks in 1955. Not particularly attractive to me personally either, but the "B" unit is a perfect match to make up a 2383 A-B-A.

C W Burfle posted:

Is that horn and spacer correct?

No.

This particular sample appears to be a Frankendiesel. Without provenance, it could have been put together any time by anyone.

Well, that's that. Thanks again gents. I'm happy that it runs well, despite its mongrel origins. Anyway: Next time it'll be all caveat emptor round the clock.

Funny, because I bought a 2343 unit at York that has the same motors! And Magnetraction. sounds like left overs motors from the 2333. No reason why you couldn't have both in the same loco.

Jim