UP 4014 January 2017 Update

Hot Water posted:

EBT Jim posted:

Steims posted:

Some of us would like to learn and enjoy 4014 Big Boy restoration on this OGR Website without getting ax dust sprayed continuously in our eyes.  Surprised there is any ax left but PLEASE give it a rest on this steamer. 

Ain't going to happen. Just ignore them. We all know from the 844 saga here, the "experts" are full of baloney. 

Happy Railroading.

Really? You mean that the current manager didn't flatten the drive wheels on 844?  And he was NOT the cause of all the mud/concrete in the boiler of 844, which subsequently required a COMPLETE disassembly of the boiler components?

 

That's not the point....

The overall point is that this site's owner, Rich, has repeatedly asked/ruled that these threads not go here, yet the same people keep doing it.   If you remember he got so fed up last time he started closing threads and kicking people off of OGR who couldn't use self control and some class to follow his wishes in his "house."

Hopefully he'll do that again since he has been notified of this thread going south, cause by the same few people.

Hot Water posted:

pennytrains posted:

Yeah, but my only point I guess would be that 4014 had more originals.

As compared to the OTHER 4000 class locomotives in museums and parks? Not so.

Hot Water, maybe you can recall this for sure. I can't seem to confirm what I think I remember.

I thought that no. 4017 at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay was among the Big Boys under consideration for restoration before no. 4014 was selected. I can't remember why 4014 was selected instead. Cosmetically, 4017 looks good because it has been indoors since I first saw it at the museum circa 1990. (My pic from last September below)

When I was in Greenbay is the early 90s covering the Packers it was still outside. I have pics of me standing in front of it. 

Having it indoors will at least help preserve it, it looks good.

I don't recall where I heard or read this but from what I recall 4014 was chosen because it had been stored in a semi arid location so it had less rust, it had been lubricated by the museum personnel on occasion and it had less than 60,000 miles on it since it had been shopped by UP before being taken out of service. Probably heard it from Ed  during a visit to the steam shop or at one of his presentations at the March Rocky Mountain Train Show over the past 3 years.

Found the pictures of UP 4017 in Greenbay this morning.  We were doing the first FOX NFL football games that started to air in 1994 so these photos are circa 1994.

We visited the Greenbay museum in the late 60's and 4017 was stored outdoors...Probably been stored outdoors for 40+ years before being drug inside.  

One Week Later........  The Facts.

UP 4014 January, 2017 Update

One week later from the Union Pacific Steam Shop Crew and Ed Dickens : Heritage Operations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lak-ch765YA

Over 27,500 Views, 812 Likes and over 400 positive comments. 

Gary: Rail-fan

It's really sad that 3985 is being used as a source of parts to rebuild 4014. 

Casey Jones2 posted:

It's really sad that 3985 is being used as a source of parts to rebuild 4014. 

There is a donor ligament in my right knee. I'm grateful to have it. I can't tell you how many junk yard parts went into the restoration of my 1959 Corvette. From what I understand, N&W 1218 parts have been used on the 611J. At the end of the day, parts are parts.

It doesn't mean that 3985 can't be restored to operation, just more parts needed to make it go.

FWIW this N&W fan will be headed to Cheyenne when this thing  is under steam again. I never thought I'd ever get to see a Big Boy in operation. I am looking forward to seeing it.

I will never see a Big Boy again. But I really look forward to hi-def videos of 4014. (cor)

I had only a fleeting look at the one in Omaha as I flew by on the interstate, but had two lengthy visits to Steamtown and 4012.

I can't address why 3985 was allowed to fall out of service but can appreciate that having both 3985 and 4017 in running order might seem impractically expensive to the UP bean counters. We should all feel a tad grateful there isn't a UP CEO who "hates steam" the way Harrison killed CP's 2816 after she had been brought back from the dead!

Gilly@N&W posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

It's really sad that 3985 is being used as a source of parts to rebuild 4014. 

There is a donor ligament in my right knee. I'm grateful to have it. I can't tell you how many junk yard parts went into the restoration of my 1959 Corvette. From what I understand, N&W 1218 parts have been used on the 611J. At the end of the day, parts are parts.

It doesn't mean that 3985 can't be restored to operation, just more parts needed to make it go.

FWIW this N&W fan will be headed to Cheyenne when this thing  is under steam again. I never thought I'd ever get to see a Big Boy in operation. I am looking forward to seeing it.

So comparing scavenging parts from N&W 1218 which has been parked for 25+ years and was under a boiler inspection/ rebuild when stored is the same as scavenging parts from UP 3985 which was fully operational and needlessly parked up until a few years ago??

I'd say it'll be more than "just more parts" taken from 3985 such as firebox oil burner unit and probably the complete tender.

Casey Jones2 posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

It's really sad that 3985 is being used as a source of parts to rebuild 4014. 

There is a donor ligament in my right knee. I'm grateful to have it. I can't tell you how many junk yard parts went into the restoration of my 1959 Corvette. From what I understand, N&W 1218 parts have been used on the 611J. At the end of the day, parts are parts.

It doesn't mean that 3985 can't be restored to operation, just more parts needed to make it go.

FWIW this N&W fan will be headed to Cheyenne when this thing  is under steam again. I never thought I'd ever get to see a Big Boy in operation. I am looking forward to seeing it.

So comparing scavenging parts from N&W 1218 which has been parked for 25+ years and was under a boiler inspection/ rebuild when stored is the same as scavenging parts from UP 3985 which was fully operational and needlessly parked up until a few years ago??

I'd say it'll be more than "just more parts" taken from 3985 such as firebox oil burner unit and probably the complete tender.

Of course, none of what has gone on in Cheyenne is related to N&W 1218, which was in the middle of a complete overhaul, the 3985 was indeed a functional and FRA certified/approved/operational steam locomotive (with a few years remaining on her FRA mandated 15 year inspection). The removal of all the appliances from 3985 is one thing, but the deliberate abuse of all the superheater units was criminal, in my opinion. The superheaters were all removed from 3985 over the winter of 2010/2011, completely hydro tested, and then placed OUT OF DOORS, unprotected from the Wyoming weather. All those superheater units subsequently went to scrap!

I saw 4014 come through Salt Lake and looked it over. Some say that it was "shopped" recently before it was donated and I have a hard time believing that. It was beat up. Looked like it had some front impact damage to me.Drivers tires worn out and the front truck was badly out of alignment. They had rigged up an oiling system to oil the outside tire on the truck. Didn't look like a sweet heart to me. Pretty hammered. They have work cut out for them.

jethat posted:

I saw 4014 come through Salt Lake and looked it over. Some say that it was "shopped" recently before it was donated and I have a hard time believing that. It was beat up. Looked like it had some front impact damage to me.Drivers tires worn out and the front truck was badly out of alignment. They had rigged up an oiling system to oil the outside tire on the truck. Didn't look like a sweet heart to me. Pretty hammered. They have work cut out for them.

The engine truck overheating issue was probably most likely caused by being towed dead by a modern diesel with rigid alignment controlled draft gear, thus forcing the engine truck to one side or the other on curves. Steam locomotives THAT large were NOT designed to be towed dead for that long distance, by a diesel uint with a rigid coupler/graft gear arrangement.

Would this have been minimized by putting an idler car between the diesel and the BB?

AmbBob posted:

Would this have been minimized by putting an idler car between the diesel and the BB?

Yes.

The damage to the truck wheels was mostly on the front wheels and it was pretty bad on one side cant remember witch. It did have damage on the front cylinders to like impact damage. I didnt think looking at it it was anywhere near a cream puff.

Hot Water posted:

The superheaters were all removed from 3985 over the winter of 2010/2011, completely hydro tested, and then placed OUT OF DOORS, unprotected from the Wyoming weather. All those superheater units subsequently went to scrap!

I do apologize.  I was not aware of that. That, is nothing short of stupid.

Hot Water posted:

jethat posted:

I saw 4014 come through Salt Lake and looked it over. Some say that it was "shopped" recently before it was donated and I have a hard time believing that. It was beat up. Looked like it had some front impact damage to me.Drivers tires worn out and the front truck was badly out of alignment. They had rigged up an oiling system to oil the outside tire on the truck. Didn't look like a sweet heart to me. Pretty hammered. They have work cut out for them.

The engine truck overheating issue was probably most likely caused by being towed dead by a modern diesel with rigid alignment controlled draft gear, thus forcing the engine truck to one side or the other on curves. Steam locomotives THAT large were NOT designed to be towed dead for that long distance, by a diesel unit with a rigid coupler/graft gear arrangement.

Your explanation makes perfect sense. Having been up close and personal with that locomotive while it was "sleeping" at the museum, I can tell you that it was in very good shape when it left Los Angeles. That was one of the reasons UP went after 4014. From my discussions with UP personnel at the Fairgrounds, they mentioned that there had been quite a bit of analysis of the route from Los Angeles to Cheyenne because of grades, bridges, curvatures and clearances.

Hot Water posted:

The engine truck overheating issue was probably most likely caused by being towed dead by a modern diesel with rigid alignment controlled draft gear, thus forcing the engine truck to one side or the other on curves. Steam locomotives THAT large were NOT designed to be towed dead for that long distance, by a diesel uint with a rigid coupler/graft gear arrangement.

They should have borrowed a 3-rail unit with a swinging pilot.  Finally:  proof that the 3RS guys are taking things too far!

(Just joking, 3RS guys, just joking!)

Kelly Anderson posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

It's really sad that 3985 is being used as a source of parts to rebuild 4014. 

Where did you hear that (or did you decide to start a rumor)?  Once you get beyond bolt on appliances, there isn't all that much that's interchangeable.

Thank you for bringing some reality to this thread. Not sure if you are allowed to answer but are the 4014 wheel sets going to Strasburg for rework?

I would think they are....who else does that work?  

N&W Class J posted:

I would think they are....who else does that work?  

Well, when the current manager flattened the drivers on 844, he had two axles sent to Strasburg, and the other two axles went to the Chattanooga, TN shop of the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum.

Yes, your right....I had forgotten about that.  Thanks HW.

I would think the UP STEAM SHOP could do that kind of work?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I would think the UP STEAM SHOP could do that kind of work?

No they can't. The UP has not had the equipment or personnel to do tire changes since about 1960. There are only a couple of places in north America that can.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I would think the UP STEAM SHOP could do that kind of work?

The UP Steam Shop does NOT have a wheel lathe/Quartering machine, and hasn't had one since the 1960s. Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units.

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I would think the UP STEAM SHOP could do that kind of work?

The UP Steam Shop does NOT have a wheel lathe/Quartering machine, and hasn't had one since the 1960s. Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units.

Good morning Hot Water:  What company does Union Pacific, send their diesel wheels to for having the wheel profiles turned?  Do they work on rolling stock wheels? As seen in this illustration.

Gary: Rail-fan

trainroomgary posted:

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I would think the UP STEAM SHOP could do that kind of work?

The UP Steam Shop does NOT have a wheel lathe/Quartering machine, and hasn't had one since the 1960s. Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units.

Good morning Hot Water:  What company does Union Pacific, send their diesel wheels to for having the wheel profiles turned?  Do they work on rolling stock wheels? As seen in this illustration.

Gary: Rail-fan

The UP, as virtually every other large railroads in North America, "tru" their own diesel wheels at MAJOR DIESEL SHOPS, using in-ground wheel truing/milling machines. The unit is pushed/pulled dead onto the wheel truing machine, and any one or all of the wheel pairs are trued, one pair at a time. Freight car wheels are removed and replaced as required, then trued at a central car shop wheel facility. Some railroads also outsource freight car wheel work, upon removal.

There are many shops that can turn wheels but not many that have wheel lathe/quartering machines. Besides Strasburg and TVRM where else? Durango might but no way to ship by rail. Nevada Nothern? Age Of Steam Roundhouse? Others?

Tranz4mr posted:

There are many shops that can turn wheels but not many that have wheel lathe/quartering machines.

Diesel wheels, yes. Steam locomotive wheels, no, i.e. not "many".

Besides Strasburg and TVRM where else?

Remember, the discussion was about wheels for 4014, which were 68" diameter, and might also require all new tires and crank pins. Not many "contract shops" capable of perform THAT work.

Durango might but no way to ship by rail.

Shipping by rail is NOT done for transporting the drive wheels form large steam locomotives. The Union Pacific Steam Shop has ALWAYS used over the road flat-bed highway trucks. Also, I don't think that either of the two narrow gauge railroad steam shops have wheel lathe/quartering machines large enough for drive wheels larger than 65" in diameter.

Nevada Nothern?

Their wheel lathe might not be large enough for such large diameter wheels, even IF they did accept outside contract work.

Age Of Steam Roundhouse?

Yes, the wheel lathe is now "up and running", if they desire to accept outside contract work.

Others?

Hot Water posted:

The UP, as virtually every other large railroads in North America, "tru" their own diesel wheels at MAJOR DIESEL SHOPS, using in-ground wheel truing/milling machines. The unit is pushed/pulled dead onto the wheel truing machine, and any one or all of the wheel pairs are trued, one pair at a time. Freight car wheels are removed and replaced as required, then trued at a central car shop wheel facility. Some railroads also outsource freight car wheel work, upon removal.

Hi Hot Water:

Do you know the name of the DIESEL SHOP COMPANY, that Union Pacific uses for this process. In-ground wheel truing/milling?

Gary: Rail-fan

trainroomgary posted:

Hot Water posted:

The UP, as virtually every other large railroads in North America, "tru" their own diesel wheels at MAJOR DIESEL SHOPS, using in-ground wheel truing/milling machines. The unit is pushed/pulled dead onto the wheel truing machine, and any one or all of the wheel pairs are trued, one pair at a time. Freight car wheels are removed and replaced as required, then trued at a central car shop wheel facility. Some railroads also outsource freight car wheel work, upon removal.

Hi Hot Water:

Do you know the name of the DIESEL SHOP COMPANY, that Union Pacific uses for this process. In-ground wheel truing/milling?

Gary: Rail-fan

It is not a "DIESEL SHOP COMPANY", but a Machine Tool Co.. The more common "in-ground" milling machine type, are manufactured & supplied by Stanray. The other brand, was a German Company, Haeganshide (sp) which was of a different design, being an "in-ground" lathe. Many railroads objected to this design philosophy, claiming that it would NOT tru the wheels perfectly round, as it was a center-less machine. The Stanray milling machines must access the axle center in order to tru the wheels perfectly round, however the "knock" on the Stanray machines is, they can, and sometimes do, turn the wheel on one side of the axle, a different diameter than the wheel on the other end of that same axle, i.e. OPERATOR ERROR.

Hi Hot Water:  This 3 minute video shows,  Underfloor / "In-ground" Wheel Turning Machine by Stanray.

trainroomgary posted:

 

Hot Water: Is this the process used by Union Pacific?

Yes..

and do you know the name off the Machine Tool Company, used by Union Pacific.

I already told you it is Stanray. UP has them in pretty much all their largest diesel shops, i.e. Kansas City, Dallas-Fort Worth, North Platte, NE, Roseville, CA, Los Angeles, CA, Proviso, IL, etc., etc., etc..

Gary: Rail-fan

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I would think the UP STEAM SHOP could do that kind of work?

The UP Steam Shop does NOT have a wheel lathe/Quartering machine, and hasn't had one since the 1960s. Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units.

Hi Hot Water: "Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units."

I already told you it is Stanray. UP has them in pretty much all their largest diesel shops, i.e. Kansas City, Dallas-Fort Worth, North Platte, NE, Roseville, CA, Los Angeles, CA, Proviso, IL, etc., etc., etc..

You gave me two answers.

1. "Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units."

2. "I already told you it is Stanray. UP has them in pretty much all their largest diesel shops, i.e. Kansas City, Dallas-Fort Worth, North Platte, NE, Roseville, CA, Los Angeles, CA, Proviso, IL, etc., etc., etc.."

Got it ..................

Gary: Rail-fan

What's a quartering machine?. I don't get the connection between turning the wheels (skid marks) and the what...?? 

Gregg posted:

What's a quartering machine?. I don't get the connection between turning the wheels (skid marks) and the what...??

Since we were originally discussing the drive wheels from #4014, i.e. a steam locomotive, the drivers of ANY steam locomotive MUST have the crankpins EXACTLY "quartered at 90 degrees, in order to obtain four power strokes for every 360 degrees of driver rotation. Thus, steam locomotive tires are turned on a very large wheel lathe, and the crankpins can also be replaced/machined and QUARTERED on the same wheel lathe (the quartering machine is an attachment to the huge wheel lathe, some being able to turn drive wheel sets up to 96 inches in diameter).

Obviously diesel wheels do NOT require "quartering" as they are NOT driven through the wheel, but by a large gear pressed on the axle.

trainroomgary posted:

1. "Thus, they can NOT turn wheel profiles, even on diesel units."

Gary: Rail-fan

Gary he was referring to Cheyenne not being able to turn wheels on diesels, not the UP system itself.