UP Aux Tender flag direction

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

My Aux tender has a flag that blows downstream on one side when train is moving forward.  On the other side I would expect the other flag to be blowing downstream also.  It is not  Is this by design or did it get past the Big L when produced?

Probably got past them. Just like they did on the first Legacy SP GS-4 steam locomotive model, when they had the famous SP Daylight "Ball & Wing" emblem reversed on one side of the skirts.

 

They did not mirror the flag.  Just left as is on the other side.

The field of stars should always be to the top left. Is that how it is?

Or is the UP not following flag code and pretending to show both sides of the same flag?

(We don't have any UP equipment and have never seen the prototype)

A few years ago I bought one online so I didn't have a chance to see it beforehand.  When I contacted Lionel about it I was told it was a mistake.  In one of the recent "Dave and Ryan" shows they were asked if the flag tender announced in 2018v2 would have the flags in the correct direction, they said that it would.

Ah, the age old debate about the correct way to show a flag.  We're not going to solve this issue on the OGR Forum.  When discussing the flag, it's best to be specific in our discussions.  Meaning are you actually flying a flag or displaying an image of the flag.  This debate has had lots of discussion over the past 10 or 20 years since the military has been putting "backwards" flags on the shoulders of our soldiers.

The below provides the explanation of how a flag is displayed on a moving military vehicle or object (like a human person).

For the purpose of the OGR 3-Rail Forum, I hope we can keep our comments focused on "does the model train accurately reflect the real life prototype train". 

Stu

When displaying the flag, the blue field of stars should always be in the highest position of honor.  So if you are displaying the flag on a wall (horizontally or vertically) the blue field of stars will always be in the upper left.  When displayed on a person or vehicle the FRONT is the highest position of honor.

Army Regulation 670-1 states, “the American flag patch is to be worn, right or left shoulder, so that “the star field faces forward, or to the flag’s own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.”

With a quick search on the internet you are sure to find some people who accept this explanation, but you will also find a handful of people who think there is only ONE way to display our flag – star field to the upper left corner – PERIOD… any other way is unpatriotic. 

On UP diesels the flag is painted so the field is toward the front of the engine on both sides and the flag "billows" as if the engine were moving.  Of course when the engine is running in the reverse direction in a train the billowing is opposite the direction of motion but the field is still towards the cab end of the engine.  On the Lionel tenders there is a backup light on only one end so that designates which way it will be run.   Lionel did not paint the flag on the tenders to represent the way UP actually runs them.  I wish they would make extra shells when they do the new run so the old tenders could be corrected.

NOT LionelLLC posted:

Ah, the age old debate about the correct way to show a flag.  We're not going to solve this issue on the OGR Forum.  When discussing the flag, it's best to be specific in our discussions.  Meaning are you actually flying a flag or displaying an image of the flag.  This debate has had lots of discussion over the past 10 or 20 years since the military has been putting "backwards" flags on the shoulders of our soldiers.

The below provides the explanation of how a flag is displayed on a moving military vehicle or object (like a human person).

For the purpose of the OGR 3-Rail Forum, I hope we can keep our comments focused on "does the model train accurately reflect the real life prototype train". 

Stu

When displaying the flag, the blue field of stars should always be in the highest position of honor.  So if you are displaying the flag on a wall (horizontally or vertically) the blue field of stars will always be in the upper left.  When displayed on a person or vehicle the FRONT is the highest position of honor.

Army Regulation 670-1 states, “the American flag patch is to be worn, right or left shoulder, so that “the star field faces forward, or to the flag’s own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.”

With a quick search on the internet you are sure to find some people who accept this explanation, but you will also find a handful of people who think there is only ONE way to display our flag – star field to the upper left corner – PERIOD… any other way is unpatriotic. 

The post was to clarify if this was done by Lionel by mistake or design.  Nothing to do with flag etiquette.  That is or should be a tread completely by itself.

Having said that, do we have the proverbial "upside down plane on postage stamp" as far a collectability?  Or should someone produce a sticker as a cover to correct the fung shway?  

i have a feeling this has come up before...

NOT LionelLLC posted:

With a quick search on the internet you are sure to find some people who accept this explanation, but you will also find a handful of people who think there is only ONE way to display our flag – star field to the upper left corner – PERIOD… any other way is unpatriotic. 

Ummmm:

Rusty

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

My Aux tender has a flag that blows downstream on one side when train is moving forward.  On the other side I would expect the other flag to be blowing downstream also.  It is not  Is this by design or did it get past the Big L when produced?

 

They did not mirror the flag.  Just left as is on the other side.

Lionel admitted the mistake and is correcting it on the new release.

Being in the Military for quite a few years, the stars must be on your left when looking at it. 

It not matters where or how it is shown, anything else is incorrect. 

The Flags on the Soldiers and on AF 1 is incorrect. 

Dave

It can be difficult to have the stars on the left sometimes:

Rusty

How can they be incorrect if that is actually the way they are on the Presidents air plane and on our soldiers shoulders?

Also...

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Also...

Rusty

Chesty Puller would be proud of this argument.  Boy, talk about a hijacked thread.  What we have heard here to the simple post was Lionel made a mistake and pointed the flag in a direction that defies logic.  So let it be written, so let it be done.

The MTH tender is a better product. It has the flag as a plackard and not printed on the side of the tender

what we need is a flag that looks the same from both sides so you can't screw up....

Matt Makens posted:

The MTH tender is a better product. It has the flag as a plackard and not printed on the side of the tender

I agree with you.  I bought my Lionel Tender when I bought my Big Boy.  Maybe if I keep this a while it will be worth enough to purchase many proper better tenders.

I actually considered taking a picture and mirror image the print on a self adhesive label.  Then temporarily put it on the side of the tender.   The other thought is to enjoy the uniqueness Lionel has created with this "mistake".  Either way, it really looks cool on the VL Big Boy and the 21" UP cars I just received last week.  With the Railstation sounds diner it really fills all the sensory dimensions running this train.  The diner car really brigs the realism past the point where PFA is right now.  I didn't think they would even get close.  I love both MTH and Lionel.  No one better or worse than the other in their productions.

The only thing I can say is that maybe in all these years that I have been away from the military maybe it has changed on how the flag is to be presented. 

Whatever has happen I have had and always will have respect for the American flag and for which it stands. We are so lucky to be living in the USA. 

Dave