UP, BNSF, CSX and NS all issue letters to congress concerning impending RR gridlock.

So what you are telling me is everything was working fine until the government got involved?

Does that surprise you?

 Wait, so this means, no more long distance Amtrak trains, or commuter railroads such as Metra until these laws are fixed? What about excursion trains?

In a candid letter to a U.S. senator, BNSF Railway’s chief executive,
Carl Ice, said September 9:
But portions of both transcontinental routes will not be operational by
the December 31 deadline set by Congress in 2008. Nor will commuter zones
in Chicago, Seattle and Minneapolis. Ice says that to avoid operating on
PTC-mandated subdivisions where PTC will not be installed before the
deadline would force traffic on secondary routes unequipped to handle
it and lead to a paralysis of the railroad.

Ice goes on to explain the railroad’s position. First, BNSF reads the law
as saying no train can legally operate on a PTC-mandated line if PTC is
not in service by December 31, rather than no train carrying hazardous
substances. Then he goes on to say: “BNSF, as a matter of law, corporate
policy and principle, does not willfully violate safety statues or
regulations or ask our employees to do so. The announced enforcement
policy by the [Federal Railroad Administration] of imposing fines for
non-performance puts BNSF in a position that will be difficult to
reconcile with our aforementioned unwillingness to willfully violate
safety laws or regulations. BNSF does not believe that it can pick and
choose which safety rules must be followed.” Ice adds that were his
railroad to operate over lines where PTC is not
in place and an accident occurs, the exposure to legal claims and
punitive damages would be significant.

Sounds logical that "no passenger trains" would also include any excursion trains on either of the four big railroads. Which also begs the question; what will CN/IC and CP do?

I have a feeling Congress will extend the deadline.

With the current do-nothing congress, I wouldn't be so sure.

only when the power plants run out of coal, we have no fuel for our precious autos, the grain rots in silos! hey, maybe this will save the Calif water problem? No way to ship to the east coast, no need for water! 

 

It's gamesmanship, nothing more.

Jeff C

+1. 

 

Coal trains may not be hazardous but oil trains certainly are.  I wonder how much of that traffic BNSF is going to decide they cannot handle.

Its pretty much implemented across the system on BNSF, but doesnt mean its workin full time on every subdivision

According to the statements, the "TIH Chemicals" are the hazardous ones in question (Toxic by Inhaled Gas).

Speaking of our congress, as far as passenger trains, haven't they been trying to cut Amtrak's funding and make things difficult for them for some time already.

PTC is a big mistake.  It was a political knee jerk reaction to a single collision in Southern Californis where several people were killed.  The 5 or 6 billion dollars that the railroads are spending on PTC would have saved many more lives if it had been spent on grade separations.  

 

A much bigger problem is highway deaths. The five or ten people who die each in railroad accidents are nothing compared to the projected 40,000 who will die on the highways this year.  And that number is on the raise again.  About 1/3 of those deaths will be in accidents involving large trucks.  Where PTC is needed is on the highways.  Large trucks should have governors to limit their speed, GPS monitored by law enforcement agencies to stop drivers from driving beyond the allowed hours, and many more drug tests of truck drivers.

You guys are taking this really well. After I read the first entry I expected a lot of sarcasm, skepticism, blame and derision. Much to my surprise, i see none of that here. 

only when the power plants run out of coal

Isn't that the current policy, to close coal-fired power plants?

I always enjoy reading Fred Frailey. This column is no exception: http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fre...ll-be-paralyzed.aspx

 

I'm one of the 20% of government employees who actually works (I have to as I work for the LA County Emergency Operations Center).

 

Congress is full of a lot of would-be useless government middle-managers who don't have a clue and have probably never had to plan a project or be responsible for its success/failure (there are some people behind the scenes who are actually accountable). They make public promises on subject matters they have little accurate information about, then blame the people charged with actually doing the work when the unrealistic promised deadline can't be met.

 

The last thing these people should be doing is playing with 1:1 scale trains.

Gee, we NEVER hear about how grade separation will cure all ills including cancer.

 

About 1/3 will involve Large Trucks, lets NOT worry about the other 2/3 of accidents.

Of that 1/3 that involves large trucks, are you aware that approximately 76% of auto/large truck accidents, it is the AUTO that is at fault? let's not talk about that shall we?

 

Large trucks should have governors to limit their speed

 

Most already do, and we get flipped off enough because of them, be Careful what you wish for, you just might get it. News flash, Split speed limits are DANGEROUS, ALL TRAFFIC should move at the same speed, there should be ONE Speed Limit, on any road. Split speed limits on two lane roads are beyond Stupid. If you are in Favor of Governors and Highway Safety, then Governors should be applied to ALL vehicles.

 

GPS monitored by Law Enforcement Agencies,

 

And this will be paid for out the same funds that will provide 100% grade separation, I suppose?

 

You simply have NO IDEA, what you are talking about.

 

You would probably be Very surprised, just how many truckers are railfans.

 

I suspect, that the average trucker knows more about railroads, than the average railfan knows about trucks.

 

27+ Years, 2,500,000+ miles experience, moving freight over this country's highways,

 

Doug

Even the FRA says the deadline can't be met and suggests Congress grant an extension. They reported this three years ago.

 

The report can be found here.

David Johnston wrote:

 

A much bigger problem is highway deaths. The five or ten people who die each in railroad accidents are nothing compared to the projected 40,000 who will die on the highways this year.  And that number is on the raise again.

 

 

Motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year[edit]

Year	Death	Vehicle miles travelled (billions)	Fatalities per 100 million VMT	Population	Fatalities per 100,000 population	Change (in percent)
1899	26[3]
1900	36			76,094,000	0.047	NA
1901	54			77,584,000	0.070	47.12%
1902	79			79,163,000	0.100	43.38%
1903	117			80,632,000	0.145	45.40%
1904	172			82,166,000	0.209	44.26%
1905	252			83,822,000	0.301	43.62%
1906	338			85,450,000	0.396	31.57%
1907	581			87,008,000	0.668	68.82%
1908	751			88,710,000	0.847	26.78%
1909	1,174			90,490,000	1.297	53.25%
1910	1,599			92,407,000	1.730	33.38%
1911	2,043			93,863,000	2.177	25.79%
1912	2,968			95,335,000	3.113	43.03%
1913	4,079			97,225,000	4.195	34.76%
1914	4,468			99,111,000	4.508	7.45%
1915	6,779			100,546,000	6.742	49.56%
1916	7,766			101,961,000	7.617	12.97%
1917	9,630			103,268,000	9.325	22.43%
1918	10,390			103,208,000	10.067	7.95%
1919	10,896			104,514,000	10.425	3.56%
1920	12,155			106,461,000	11.417	9.51%
1921	13,253	55.03	24.09	108,538,000	12.210	6.95%
1922	14,859	67.70	21.95	110,049,000	13.502	10.58%
1923	17,870	85.00	21.03	111,947,000	15.963	18.22%
1924	18,400	104.84	17.55	114,109,000	16.125	1.01%
1925	20,771	122.35	16.98	115,829,000	17.932	11.21%
1926	22,194	140.74	15.77	117,397,000	18.905	5.42%
1927	24,470	158.45	15.44	119,035,000	20.557	8.74%
1928	26,557	172.86	15.36	120,509,000	22.037	7.20%
1929	29,592	197.72	14.97	121,767,000	24.302	10.28%
1930	31,204	206.32	15.12	123,076,741	25.353	4.33%
1931	31,963	216.15	14.79	124,039,648	25.768	1.64%
1932	27,979	200.52	13.95	124,840,471	22.412	-13.03%
1933	29,746	200.64	14.83	125,578,763	23.687	5.69%
1934	34,240	215.56	15.88	126,373,773	27.094	14.38%
1935	34,494	228.57	15.09	127,250,232	27.107	0.05%
1936	36,126	252.13	14.33	128,053,180	28.212	4.07%
1937	37,819	270.11	14.00	128,824,829	29.357	4.06%
1938	31,083	271.18	11.46	129,824,939	23.942	-18.44%
1939	30,895	285.40	10.83	130,879,718	23.606	-1.41%
1940	32,914	302.19	10.89	132,122,446	24.912	5.53%
1941	38,142	333.61	11.43	133,402,471	28.592	14.77%
1942	27,007	268.22	10.07	134,859,553	20.026	-29.96%
1943	22,727	208.19	10.92	136,739,353	16.621	-17.00%
1944	23,165	212.71	10.89	138,397,345	16.738	0.71%
1945	26,785	250.17	10.71	139,928,165	19.142	14.36%
1946	31,874	340.88	9.35	141,388,566	22.544	17.77%
1947	31,193	370.89	8.41	144,126,071	21.643	-4.00%
1948	30,775	397.96	7.73	146,631,302	20.988	-3.03%
1949	30,246	424.46	7.13	149,188,130	20.274	-3.40%
1950	33,186	458.25	7.24	152,271,417	21.794	7.50%
1951	35,309	491.09	7.19	154,877,889	22.798	4.61%
1952	36,088	513.58	7.03	157,552,740	22.905	0.47%
1953	36,190	544.43	6.65	160,184,192	22.593	-1.36%
1954	33,890	561.96	6.03	163,025,854	20.788	-7.99%
1955	36,688	605.65	6.06	165,931,202	22.110	6.36%
1956	37,965	627.84	6.05	168,903,031	22.477	1.66%
1957	36,932	647.00	5.71	171,984,130	21.474	-4.46%
1958	35,331	664.65	5.32	174,881,904	20.203	-5.92%
1959	36,223	700.48	5.17	177,829,628	20.369	0.83%
1960	36,399	718.76	5.06	180,671,158	20.147	-1.09%
1961	36,285	737.42	4.92	183,691,481	19.753	-1.95%
1962	38,980	766.73	5.08	186,537,737	20.897	5.79%
1963	41,723	805.25	5.18	189,241,798	22.047	5.51%
1964	45,645	846.30	5.39	191,888,791	23.787	7.89%
1965	47,089	887.81	5.30	194,302,963	24.235	1.88%
1966	50,894	925.90	5.50	196,560,338	25.892	6.84%
1967	50,724	964.01	5.26	198,712,056	25.526	-1.41%
1968	52,725	1,015.87	5.19	200,706,052	26.270	2.91%
1969	53,543	1,061.79	5.04	202,676,946	26.418	0.56%
1970	52,627	1,109.72	4.74	205,052,174	25.665	-2.85%
1971	52,542	1,178.81	4.46	207,660,677	25.302	-1.42%
1972	54,589	1,259.79	4.33	209,896,021	26.008	2.79%
1973	54,052	1,313.11	4.12	211,908,788	25.507	-1.92%
1974	45,196	1,280.54	3.53	213,853,928	21.134	-17.14%
1975	44,525	1,327.66	3.35	215,973,199	20.616	-2.45%
1976	45,523	1,402.38	3.25	218,035,164	20.879	1.27%
1977	47,878	1,467.03	3.26	220,239,425	21.739	4.12%
1978	50,331	1,544.70	3.26	222,584,545	22.612	4.02%
1979	51,093	1,529.13	3.34	225,055,487	22.702	0.40%
1980	51,091	1,527.30	3.35	227,224,681	22.485	-0.96%
1981	49,301	1,552.80	3.18	229,465,714	21.485	-4.45%
1982	43,945	1,595.01	2.76	231,664,458	18.969	-11.71%
1983	42,589	1,652.79	2.58	233,791,994	18.217	-3.97%
1984	44,257	1,720.27	2.57	235,824,902	18.767	3.02%
1985	43,825	1,774.18	2.47	237,923,795	18.420	-1.85%
1986	46,087	1,834.87	2.51	240,132,887	19.192	4.19%
1987	46,390	1,921.20	2.42	242,288,918	19.147	-0.24%
1988	47,087	2,025.96	2.32	244,498,982	19.259	0.58%
1989	45,582	2,096.46	2.17	246,819,230	18.468	-4.11%
1990	44,599	2,144.36	2.08	249,464,396	17.878	-3.19%
1991	41,508	2,172.05	1.91	252,153,092	16.461	-7.92%
1992	39,250	2,247.15	1.75	255,029,699	15.390	-6.51%
1993	40,150	2,296.38	1.75	257,782,608	15.575	1.20%
1994	40,716	2,358	1.73	260,327,021	15.6403	0.42%
1995	41,817	2,423	1.73	262,803,276	15.9119	1.74%
1996	42,065	2,486	1.69	265,228,572	15.8599	-0.33%
1997	42,013	2,562	1.64	267,783,607	15.6892	-1.08%
1998	41,501	2,632	1.58	270,248,003	15.3566	-2.12%
1999	41,717	2,691	1.55	272,690,813	15.2983	-0.38%
2000	41,945	2,747	1.53	282,216,952	14.8627	-2.85%
2001[2]	42,196	2,797	1.51	285,226,284	14.794	-0.46%
2002	43,005	2,856	1.51	288,125,973	14.926	0.89%
2003	42,884	2,890	1.48	290,796,023	14.747	-1.75%
2004	42,836	2,965	1.44	293,638,158	14.588	-0.52%
2005	43,510	2,989	1.46	296,507,061	14.674	0.44%
2006	42,708	3,014	1.42	299,398,484	14.265	-2.79%
2007	41,259	3,031	1.36	301,139,947	13.701	-3.85%
2008	37,423	2,977	1.26	303,824,640	12.317	-11.0%
2009	33,883	2,957	1.15	306,700,000	11.048	-9.7%
2010[2]	32,999	2,967	1.11	309,326,000	10.668	-3.5%
2011[4]	32,479	2,950	1.10	311,588,000	10.424	-2.3%
2012[1]	33,561	2,969	1.13	313,914,000	10.691	2.6%
2013[5]	32,719	2,946	1.11	316,129,000	10.345	-3.3%

 

 

 

 

 

Actually it is a lot less than 40,000 a year dying on the highway each year, and according to the chart above, which shows 2013 as the last year for statistics, in the 18 years from 1996- 2013, the highway death rates have been DECLINING, with just 3 exceptions.

 

Unfortunately, it is more than 5-10 people that die each (Year?) in railroad accidents.

 

All Highway-Rail Incidents at Public and Private Crossings, 1981-2014 Source: Federal Railroad Administration

Year	Collisions	Fatalities	Injuries
1981	9,461	728	3,293
1982	7,932	607	2,637
1983	7,305	575	2,623
1984	7,456	649	2,910
1985	7,073	582	2,687
1986	6,513	616	2,458
1987	6,426	624	2,429
1988	6,617	689	2,589
1989	6,526	801	2,868
1990	5,715	698	2,407
1991	5,388	608	2,094
1992	4,910	579	1,975
1993	4,892	626	1,837
1994	4,979	615	1,961
1995	4,633	579	1,894
1996	4,257	488	1,610
1997	3,865	461	1,540
1998	3,508	431	1,303
1999	3,489	402	1,396
2000	3,502	425	1,219
2001	3,237	421	1,157
2002	3,077	357	999
2003	2,977	334	1,035
2004	3,077	372	1,092
2005	3,057	359	1,051
2006	2,936	369	1,070
2007	2,776	339	1,062
2008	2,429	290	992
2009	1,934	249	743
2010	2,051	260	887
2011	2,061	250	1,045
2012	1,985	230	975
2013*	2,098	232	972
2014*	2,287	269	849

 

 

 

 Let's not let the FACTS, get in the way of spinning the Truth, into what you would LIKE to believe.

 

Doug

 

 

CSX's letter did a great job of singling out the potential impact on Washington, DC area rail commuters.  They also seem to have specifically targeted the greater New York City and Chicago metropolitan areas for additional hardship; something I believe is aimed squarely at several Democratic Congressmen who have openly opposed any extension to the PTC deadline.

Curt

Good for them. There's a long-standing rumor that the reason the Amtrak Northeast Corridor runs fast and on schedule is because Congressmen use it to commute. I think it's perfectly appropriate to have them suffer the impact of their "decisions in a vacuum".

Not only are highway deaths of far greater concern, so are deaths by guns. Something like 500,000 deaths by guns have occurred since 9/11. What kind of twisted priorities does nothing about this?

Honestly, I think we all know what is going to happen here. At the last minute, congress will blink and extend the deadline. Crisis averted. End of discussion.

I'll grant you they don't do much, but they'll fix this, if they know what's good for them. This is bigger than the debt ceiling.

This extension really needs to be done sooner rather than last minute.  UP and CSX both have indicated they will likely begin to embargo TIH shipments in mid to late November.  They have to begin this process well ahead of time so that there are no loaded or residue empty TIH cars are their respective railroads at midnight December 31.

Curt

I'm a little in the dark (again) What exactly is PTC??  Positive train control? which means?? a computer is monitoring the  train , It's  speed, location, and can apply an emergency application of the brakes??  

 

Behold!  The power of the Internet!

 

https://www.google.com/#q=Positive+Train+Control

The northeast corridor is owned an operated by Amtrak so they are on their own.  If you remember the derailment a few months back in Philadelphia that was one of the few areas of the NEC where PTC was not yet in effect and Amtrak said they intended to meet the deadline.

 

It will have been 8 years and the railroads have had plenty of opportunities to make noise for technical, financial and political reasons all along.  That they have chosen to wait until the last 120 days is just gamesmanship.  No different than the US auto manufacturers whining about meeting safety, environmental and fuel economy standards.

 

 

This PTC seems like a double edged blade. Sure it's all well and good in the eyes of the public and your congress, making trains "safer" but I'm willing to bet that the highly skilled operators of these trains still experience collisions at level crossings and the odd oops here and there. Because people are still just as dumb as they were before this was implemented. The other side of the sword is an honest question: How many "foreign" power units run on away from home railways (BNSF power on CSX line)? How compatible are these systems supposed to be? The wiki article says there's a lot of different manufacturers depending on local. The GPS and radio should be universal but as many of you know, some companies might have proprietary codes written for their speed controllers and signal updates.

 

We'll have to watch and see what happens.

To get me to believe industry lobbyists didn't have the opportunity to pretty much write the legislation just won't happen.  That they were incompetent or took their toys home and refused to participate I would believe.

Yeah and it's that same bunch pushing for smaller lighter vehicles that kill more people in a traffic accident ie; smart car vs Ford Excursion. 

As a former teacher of government I can honestly say no one is more disgusted with the manner in which the government is functioning than I am. No one is more disgusted with the self serving Congress than I am. This thread is a perfect example of how a group of people, here on the OGR Forum, have a better understanding of the implications of a railroad slowdown/shutdown than do the members of Congress

 

i do not blame Congress in its entirety. Congress cannot elect itself. If the American people do not take on a greater role in electing better candidates or demanding term limits, we get what we deserve. DEMAND term limits. INSIST on throwing out Congress people who want to be sent back to Congress term after term. If this example is not enough, what is?

We all have the government to "protect us when we don't know any better"....... Who protects the government when they don't know any better

Maybe Hot Water will correct me on this one, memory isn't what it used to be and I am no expert on all this. But, I have read a few articles in Trains Magazine about PTC and from my understanding there is NO standard and each Class 1 rail road is using the system or their choice. And as you say none of the different systems being marketed are compatible. That is a problem. I am not sure they have been fully tested and proven to work either. I believe the rail roads were wanting the FRA to provide standards to which they could follow and it never happened. I have seen proprietary systems in use first hand. Pretty much guarantees the manufacturer more business because it is way too expensive to switch to anything else.