UP engines Collide in Weber Canyon

More details, sounds like one train was stopped and the second rolled into it from behind. How does that work? Wouldn't the 2nd train have stopped at a block behind the first? There is one about a mile behind (east) of the collision.  Under what conditions and guidelines are trains allowed to creep up onto each other on a mainline?

from the damage in the video, that sure doesn't look like "creeping up onto each other"

well that is a 40mph track section there, had it been full speed it might have been worse. Luckily the crew was treated and released

If the second train came upon a red signal indication, it COULD have been a "stop & proceed" signal, i.e. the train stops and then proceeds at RESTRICTED SPEED (being able to stop short of any obstruction or track defect, within your line of vision). According to the various photos posted on the Western Railroads board of Train Orders, the speed MUST have been very low, however the weight involved of two grain trains obviously played a great part in the resoling damage.

That makes sense. You often see trains stacked a bit lower down the tracks were they enter the Riverdale yard a few miles west of the collision site. Doesn't seem like a good place to stack them there, it's a pretty good grade. The tracks were probably icy and snow covered this AM. Wonder if they applied them late not realizing how poor that traction was

Another picture from the scene. Estimated speed 15mph at impact

Can you tell me where this was relevant to Devil's Gate? Thanks.

About 3 miles West. It was right at the mouth of Weber Canyon

Now the next problem the Sheriff and HP are concerned about, after they leave every deer in the area is going to come looking for grain. Going to be a bunch of dead deer there

It would seem the crew needs to review the definition of "Restricted Speed." Evidently they forgot the part about being able to stop "...within half the range of vision..." and only remembered the "...not exceeding 15 mph..." part of the rule.

There are a lot of engineers who think that "Restricted Speed" means 15 mph. It does NOT.

It's was a bad place to be stacking trains. Its a blind curve into the impact area though they might have been able to see the train parked from about a mile before the curve. Add very slushy and cold conditions and a good downhill grade, not optimal for braking.

The lead engine (UP 5844) actually stayed on the track, the second engine was the destroyed one

Restricted speed is not exceeding 20 mph on the UP Rich. They coulda been doing 20 and plugged it, or just moving at 15 and didnt even see it until impact.

Guess that depends on each RR's operating rules. On NS it is not exceeding 15 mph.

UP & BNSF is 20, but either way, they are very lucky that's ALL that happened.

I know this is not a funny situation but for some reason this post is very funny.

Frequent operations testing on rules requiring trains to proceed at Restricted Speed is the best way to prevent collisions like this one.  Crews get used to being tested frequently, and want to beat the Road Foreman of Engines or Trainmaster at his own game (which is actually a "win" for both).  That way, when conditions naturally occur that require movement at Restricted Speed, the crew will suspect that it's another test and be looking for a banner or (on UPRR) a red flag or little red light clipped to the rail. Nobody feels any pain and everybody likes to stay out of the headlines. No amount of testing can guarantee that an incident like this could ever happen, but it reduces the likelihood to the minimum level.

Although it elevates tension a little when you first start it, once you get crews used to being tested often, you rarely have to issue any discipline.  The FRA, visiting officials, system testing teams - anybody - can come onto your territory and find very minor exceptions - if any - which benefits the crews and the officials as well.  And I do not know how often or how well this part of the UPRR is tested.

Whenever a train collision occurs that gets the Federal regulatory agencies involved (and this one qualifies) their first requests include the testing records of each crew member involved, the testing records of the officials for that Subdivision and the number of tests at that mile post.  When there's frequent testing, the FRA moves on, and the sooner they quit digging around in your business, the better everybody will like it.  They carry badges and can be very thorough if they feel it is needed.

DISCLAIMER:To prevent the suspicion that I'm drinking my own Kool-Aid, let me point out that there are tests and, then, there are traps.  Standardized tests that will easily be passed if a crew knows and complies with applicable rules are straightforward and are easily sufficient for preventing habitual rule violations, when used frequently.  Traps are unfair, and benefit nobody.  Any official who sets up traps disguised as tests is cowardly and dishonest.

Gee this picture really looks nad. I don't see how that crew made it out alive. Thank goodness they did.

That's because that is a photo of the SECOND unit in the consist of the second westbound grain train, which ran into the rear DPU unit if the leading westbound grain train. Look closely at the unit still up on the hill, as THAT was the lead unit, and note how "closely coupled" it is to the front end of that rear end DPU.

Now, for the muti-billion dollar question:  would this have been prevented by PTC?

Most likely,YES. Even though this was in the UP's Cab Signal Territory, once the following train's Engineer stopped at the red "stop & proceed" signal, then proceeded and acknowledge the block when he passed it, they STILL ran into the rear of the train ahead. Under PTC, the GPS function would most likely set the brakes prior to getting too close.

Maybe on YOUR railroad. It is 15 mph on the line I work on.

I thought West of the Mississippi...Class 1 railroads followed GCOR.  Unless it has been changed recently, GCOR specifies NTE 20mph for restricted speed.

Do NS, CSX, and other Eastern roads follow something called NORAC...or something like that??

I am glad to see you posting Wyhog...what are you up to these days?

I'm a complete outsider to this industry so this might be a dumb question, but why would train operators ever feel an incentive to speed beyond what they are told is safe? Are they expected to stay on a schedule and then need to speed up if a delay occurs early in the trip?  

Why do motor vehicle drivers exceed the posted highway speeds?  The temptation is the same on the railroad, but the tolerance is zero, whereas it is too difficult to enforce zero tolerance on motor vehicles.

I am no engineer but I think the are tracked with gps and a data device and it would be difficult and hard to speed undetected. Plus I think if they dont abide by a policy and a incident happens they could be held personnally responsable. I only have heard this second hand but it makes sense and would take away the incentive to speed.

Who said they were speeding? 15mph is  well within the UP requirements of "Restricted Speed", BUT the failure is "stopping within half the range of vision of". They can go 20mph, but they have to be able to stop before running into ANYTHING!

When I was in the UP sim at the Houston Open House, the "train" I had, I had one locomotive and only 10 cars.  It is amazing the distance a train that short needs to stop.  

Defensive driving suggests having a "cushion" of space around you.  

So I can appreciate the rules the railroads use for restricted speed.

This would require more work of a dispatcher.  But if a train reached a number plated signal showing a red aspect.  The train has to call DS, and see a train is ahead.  If needed, the DS gives the train in question a track warrant to enter the track in question.

I'm not aware that any UP Dispatcher issues "track warrants" in cab signal, CTC territory.

If you were to call a DS and tell/ask him that in CTC territory, you're gonna get a sarcastic comment followed by "proceed on signal indication!"

That's my point, the RR will charge them and discipline the offense as a "Restricted Speed" failure, not a "Speeding" violation.

A question I was asked by my Sheriff friend to see what the response was

Visibility at the accident is extremely limited, If the crew couldn't see around the corner in a safe distance to stop what do they do then? Would the train be required to stop? Would the conductor step off the train and walk forward? Or just slow to a crawl?

Slow to a crawl, pretty well covers it!

There are conductors/crews out there that would prefer to stop and walk ahead of the movement. There are crews that will just crawl around the corner. There are also crews that will call the train ahead on the radio and ask them if they are still moving, and then decide whether or not to keep going, or just stop and wait.

Don't stop.

I was looking forward to coming back here to read about this every day for awhile. I find it very informative, if others would leave some of the other forums and read on this one more often, they would also.

Greg

Agreed.  This is one of the most informative of the "wreck" threads we've had.

Dominic, you have the idea . . .but please allow me to clarify the requirements.  In CTC it is a signal without a number plate that is an absolute signal and is normally a controlled signal.  One with a number plate is an automatic signal, typically referred to as an intermediate signal.  The Train Dispatcher controls controlled signals only.  Automatic signals react to track occupancy, switch position, or broken rails, and the Train Dispatcher has no control over them except for establishing a current of traffic so that they will only show Proceed for trains in one direction chosen by the DS.

A signal displaying a red aspect, and having a number plate on its mast, indicates Stop and Proceed.  A train encountering such a signal must stop before passing it, and then proceed at Restricted Speed through the entire block, until the leading wheels of the train pass a signal displaying a more favorable indication.  An absolute signal displaying a red aspect indicates Stop.  A train encountering a Stop signal which is a controlled signal must contact the Train Dispatcher and obtain verbal authority to pass the signal and enter the block governed by it.  The movement must be made at Restricted Speed through the entire block.  I believe that's the signal you were thinking of.

It's a little different in ABS territory as opposed to CTC, but both signal systems have automatic signals and absolute signals.

As has previously been pointed out the territory where the accident occurred has CTC with wayside signals, and, additionally, cab signals.

Some time back I posted about the sad case of Extra UP 6907 West, which followed a Santa Fe train out of Summit and ran on what he heard on the radio instead of what the signals indicated.  The Engineer failed to realize that the Santa Fe he had been following all the way from Barstow had run around another train at Summit, and UP 6907 West was now following two Santa Fe trains and both had an Engineer named Tom (not me).  UP6907 West heard the same Conductor he had been listening to say, "Got 'em moving, Tom," and, although he was running on a signal indication requiring him to move at Restricted Speed, he came on down the mountain at 20-plus MPH, because he "knew" that ol' Tom would be moving 30 MPH and the next signal ought to be yellow at worst.  He came around a curve and saw that the signal was red and there was a Santa Fe caboose standing still just beyond it.  Two railroaders were injured too severely to ever work again.  The head-end Brakeman aboard the UP 6907 was killed (beheaded) and the 6907 was scrapped.