Update from 3rd Rail

watched the miles drop very quickly from 60 - 29 miles left of charge as I climbed the grade.

Back in 1980 I was attending school at Mare Island and had a Nissan Sentra for a rental car.  At the time my sister-in-law lived in Antioch so I went to see her, must have traveled down Hwy 4.  The Sentra did the same thing (except it was gas).  I had to get a running start to make it up the next hill!!!

Still, I think electric cars are the way to go, at least in a direction away from using gasoline.

Maybe you needed a "pusher" engine to get you over the grade

hello guys and gals............

I wondered if can charge up the car overnight using the lionel's ZW-L ? If not then to the Wal-Mart for all the "D" batteries in stock just might work for few hundred feet?

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,623

Tiffany

I looked when I bought my Nissan Rogue, but they just don't make sense to me yet.  When you run the numbers for my level of driving, it's cheaper to pay high gas prices.  I'm also afraid the price of those long extension cords would be the killer!

There is a "show off" room of the T at the Houston Galleria.  I'm impressed with the tech in the car. 

Scott;

Way to go (literally)!  Next step is to install roof top solar.  We went with solar a few years ago and it is such a pleasure to have zero electric bills.  We test drove a Tesla S and fell in love...235 miles/charge, plush and beautiful.  Unfortunately, it would wipe out the train budget for several years.

Second step...now that you have a major investment in batteries perhaps its time to consider battery operated options for 3rd Rail engines.

Allan

  Watch this space.  More likely side yard than roof top.  

My well off great aunt was not happy when her 1925 Detroit Electric could just barely

make the run from her house to her sisters-in-laws farm, in that day on those roads.

She tried to give the car to her gardener, and he refused it, but, if she'd  kept it, of

course it would be a collector's item, but not a car I'd want to try to commute in.

You could say, "Been there, done that", but I don't think the technology is there yet

for a second generation of Studebaker and Detroit Electrics, and maybe it will never be...but, man can fly, and he has been to the moon.   Most early electrics were compact coupes that were  driven and occupied by one person.  I never saw a four

door one.  They did run a very light car across Australia on solar panels.  Electrics now work for local driving...planning a trip to Yellowstone...forget about it. 

 I think it would be fantastic to have roof top solar panels. I saw a new panel on a tech show that is a thin sheet of flex material. Looked very promising.

 I would love a car that could charge from the roof top system.

Dunno if it is always sunny in Oz, but it is raining here, and, this is not the Land of the

Midnight Sun.  Getting a 24/7 hour solar supply is gonna take some innovation. 

Sorry fellas, I'll stick with my LS2 powered Pontiac and LC2 powered Buick.

Kurt

Scott

It all sounds very cool. I lived in the bay area in the 70's and used to play golf in San Ramon just east of the expressway and also in the Sunol Valley. 

What I remember were those radio warning about HIGH WINDS and Small car warnings as you cross the valleys. Maybe that is all a thing of the past?

hmmm, solar-powered, battery-operated model trains

Electric Cars have very heavy battery packs laying in the floor of the chassis. Giving them very good stability and cornering. That's what I noticed about the Leaf (650 lbs of Lithium battery in the floor), it hugs the road, and you can zip around like a little sports car. I haven't noticed any problem with wind. And it is breezy here in San Ramon. The car doesn't feel light when driving it. Very solid feeling. 

Solar: I researched the solar power issue quite a bit. Here is what I have learned:

Got a bid for a 5 kw/h system, roof installed. $42,000 - 30% government rebate. About $30,000 out of pocket. OUTCH.. takes 7 - 9 years to get that back in reduced PG&E Bills. Too long for me. Too expensive.

Leasing Solar: No out of pocket. Reduces your Electric Bill, how much I am not sure. But... if you sell your house, the buyer has to assume your lease or you are stuck paying it. So I don't like that complication. 

DIY: Costco sells a 5kw/h system for $13,000.

http://www.costco.com/home-solar-power.html

Guessing with a contractor, installation could bring this to $20,000 - 30% Government rebate, out of pocket $14,000. Takes only 3-5 years for you to recover the cost, then after that, $4000 a year, free Electricity. In some cases you get paid by the Utility, so I have heard.

Conservation: Going to Time of Use, set the car to charge in the middle of the night. Change all the bulbs in the house to Florescent, put in IR detectors to turn lights off.  Make the wife do the laundry during the cheap time. Hahaha, I may have to move out if I suggest that.

The Leaf is totally programmable. PG&E rate is 1/3 of normal at that time, costing very little to charge the Leaf each night.  

.10 / kwh at night

.38 / kwh during peak time

.21 / kwh, morning and evening 

I really like the idea of solar power. My favorite subject in college was Solid State Physics, just amazing how semi conductors do what they do, electron quantum states and elemental interactions... blaa blaa.  So fiddling with solar panels will probably be my hobby going forward. That and running the train business which I love. 

I think going forward, the technology of Hybrids, Electrics, faster and easier charging solutions will make this the norm. It sure pulled me in. I hated the $60 - $80 for low octane here in CA I was buying every week. And every time something happened at a refinery or in the Middle East, the prices jumped up. Even with my short commute an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) car gets very bad in town mileage.  A very good customer of ours, came to our table at York and we discussed the soon to arrive US energy Independence, and how this was going to be the biggest boom economy we have seen since the 1950s. Sounds good to me. 

Tesla has a demo up on Youtube that shows an automated battery swap.  Their vision is free charging stations but a small fee for a quick swap.  Pretty impressive....maybe too futuristic.  Maybe they can never pull this off but it's good to see that at least folks are thinking about how to make electric cars more convenient.  Electricity/hydrogen - the future of personal transportation.  Each will have infrastructure needs and it's good that people are experimenting with solutions. 

One thing about (at least the old) electrics, and steam cars,  was that they were direct drive and did not have transmissions.  That eliminates today's constant-fail repair ripoff.  No gears to shift is why electrics were popular with little old ladies, etc., at the dawn of the automotive age.  I have no clue as to whether today's electrics retain that quality.  I can't get past the styling on any modern electric or hybrid I have seen, except for a Honda hybrid  manual transmission coupe that was offered, and I don't know if it is still available.

That is IF prices were competitive. 

What's next for the 3RS forum?

Fitting Kadees to my Leaf? What's your favorite color Lexus? Weathering techniques for my new Caddy? TM's new video, "World Class Restomods, Part 5"? Kitbashing a 1918 Hispano Suiza? 

Bob

Yea, I know we are off topic. One last reply.

The Leaf and the Tesla S are without transmissions. No gears. Full torque from 0 MPH. Even though it takes almost 10 seconds to go 0-60 in the Leaf and 4.? seconds for the Tesla, it is a very different feeling. You know when you are on ice and you hit the brakes and you feel like you just got pushed forward when you lose traction?  Same thing. No sound, just acceleration, feels like flying.  Onward to trains.

Container arrives September 5th, T-3, Lark Cars and 1st Run Light Weight Coaches.

FP7s are in production, along with 2nd Run of Coaches and Santa Fe Super Chief. These will be in the next container arriving in October.

GN 08 Coming October as well. Maybe November.

Canadian Train - In production, but waiting for tooling rework. Probably delivery in December.

SP AC9s - Enters production in October for a November delivery. Very highly detailed and accurate.

Mollies in production, just slow to finish. Probably February 2014.

Modern HW Coaches, new plastic factory starting up, causing some delay. We hope December delivery.

Cheers,

Scott Mann

We have 200 years worth of oil under US soil.  

In addition, we have 500 years worth of Nat Gas.  

I for one will NEVER own an electric car.

Scott,

When are the B&O Columbian cars (set B) expected?

Jim

Jim,

The corrections have been made to the Columbian car drawings and the builder should begin production within the next month or so. Probably should be available late this year.

WHY?

Reread the last two sentences of the first paragraph of Scott's posting.

jackson

Are you a 3-Rail SCALE modeler?  Does this post by Scott Mann REALLY bother you THAT much?

If you don't like the space it takes up, why repeat it?

It is interesting, and soon model train buffs will be looking for battery power and radio-control.  Then the center rail will be for appearance only, and I can quit insulating wheels.

As to 200 years of petroleum just waiting to be burned, is that at today's rate of consumption, or are we figuring on a doubling of consumption each decade?  If the latter, then this is great news.  If the former, then that is what folks have been saying for a while, and it is quite misleading.

Opinion.

Hi Guys,

I found Scott's post to be very informative and interesting.  

There is some speculation that the future of model railroading will include battery powered trains.  Maybe Scott will be the primary innovator at some future date?

Batteries are used in RC airplanes and G gauge trains.  As far as I know, however, there isn't a single model train manufacturer making an engine with a factory installed battery system.  

My G gauge friends usually buy a large heavy battery pack that they install in a box car, B-unit or tender pulled by the locomotive.  My experience with G gauge batteries is that they don't last very long and are a pain to change and to keep charged.  I was running a battery powered G gauge at a train show.  We needed to change to battery every 90 minutes.  This involved disconnecting the wiring between the box car and the engine, taking off the box car's roof and putting in the new battery.  It usually took about 10 minutes while kids were asking us "When are you going to run some trains?"

 Wouldn't it be wonderful if a train engine came with a battery installed that could be changed out as quickly and easily as a cell phone battery?

Joe

hello guys and gals.......

as long as I can buy gas for my 1970 ranger then I DON'T need a electric car. Its too expensive as of today maybe the prices will come down in next 20 years (which I doubt it).  Speaking of batteries, how much will it cost to replace the large set of batteries of the electric car after 50,000 miles ?.  When I run my sunset 3rd Texan, I leave the battery in but when storing the engine I take out the battery.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,623

Tiffany

Tiffany, It's definitely cheaper to keep a car running than to buy into a new technology.   But... I had to give my ICE car to my son for college. I either could buy a conventional car, hybrid or go electric for myself. Marcy and I work together at the business. So we share a conventional car (mini van)  for long distance and business hauling, and our new electric car for all the running around that was costing so much. It works for us, but I know it probably doesn't work for the majority of folks out there. But knowing what is out there, should keep people thinking every time they fill up. I know when I watch the pump hitting 50-60+ dollars, I always thought to myself, there has got to be a better way.

I still believe, energy independence is important to our country. My activity is just a small part of that. Imagine solar powered road coils, charging cars as they run down the highways by induction. Sure we would have to pay for this kind of innovation, but it would free us from being the worlds police and a slave to an energy source we can't control. Yes we produce a lot of oil in the US, but did you know we don't use that oil ourselves. It's too dirty. We sell it to other countries and then buy most of our oil for refining to gasoline from  light sweet crude from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Mexico and other wonderful friends. Why? Because we can't stop using oil and we have very strict environmental requirements. Lets change things. 

Battery operated trains? Maybe. I grew up flying model airplanes, mostly gas powered. My latest model is powered with a lithium battery. Amazing, long lasting power. 

This is all just food for thought. I still love driving my friends Dodge Viper (V 10) .

OK.. I am guilty of abusing the forum.. I will stop now. 

Scott

when are the lackawanna streamline coaches coming, I missed the pre-orders.

Sorry, Lackawanna didn't make the list. 

Very good discussion, Scott. And if anyone bothers to read seriously about what's going to happen to our planet in the next 50 years, the urgency or "Let's change things" becomes painfully (and I mean painfully) apparent.

There's good reason why virtually all mass transit systems are now electric, and why the Europeans, Japanese, Chinese and others throughout the world operate predominantly electric rail systems. Here in the U.S.A.? As Winston Churchill said, Americans can be relied upon to do the right thing.....after they have exhausted all other possibilities.

Just my opinion, but the far bigger hurdle will be getting Americans "out of their automobiles"! Plus, with the great distances we have in the U.S., we really can't compare electrified transit to the high speed rail systems in Europe, nor Japan. Oh, and one more thing,,,,our good old U.S.A. is FLAT BROKE, so who is to pay for all this passenger transportation that the vast majority of our citizens refuse to ride, but would rather drive. 

Wahooooo!   Looking forward to these cars!

Regarding electric cars, folks needs to buy the vehicle that suites their needs.  For a short commute, and in an area where quick charging stations are available, electric is an interesting alternative.

Personally, I occasionally need a truck, so that is what I bought last year.  Got a great price on a Ram 1500 5.7 liter hemi on clearance (saved 25% off sticker)!  Interestingly my 5.7 liter Ram get the same mileage as my old (and smaller) 3.7 liter Dodge Dakota (17 mpg).  This years Ram with the 5.7 liter (8 speed auto) gets almost 25 mpg! 

Solar is also an interesting alternative.  When I retire in 8 years, my Dear Wife and I plan to spend a year or two (or until we get tired) full-timing in a RV Trailer.  Plan to install 400 - 600 watts of solar on the roof along with 4 - 6 deep cell batteries.  This will be enough power (and reserve) for everything but a/c and a microwave.

Jim

I've pretty much dropped out of the command world and running model trains until they come up with battery powered wireless DCC.  And not piecemeal.  I have no interest in cleaning track.  It's like having a boat or an airplane, you have to do all that maintenance to enjoy either.  No thanks.

I'm 63 and have no children so I have nothing to loose by not caring about hydrocarbon combustion.   It won't be my grandchildren or great grandchildren who will have to deal with unbreathable air due to the levels of carbon oxides.  Every additional pound of atmospheric carbon oxides is one less pound of breathable oxygen.

I can't wait to see the Lark cars in a couple of weeks.  They gonna be awesome!

Ditto on all counts (except for being older).  Also, another possible consequence of battery operation is the possibility that those of us who still have 3 rail engines but are in the process of going 2 rail might just be able to run the 3 rail engines on code 148 2 rail.  Just checked my 3rd Rail ATSF northern and it seems to work on 2 rail (don't know about going through turnouts).

Allan

I've always been curious if anyone who has gone from 3-rail to 2-rail has ever kept their 3-rail track in place and left the middle rail or gone thru the process of removing it.

I have both Gargraves track and Ross track on my layout and noticed the Ross track is spiked down to the wooden ties whereas the Gargraves track has a groove where the track is actually down in the ties.  Pulling up the center rail, while keeping the smaller radius in place, could make going 2-rail a real possibility.  I'm not sure how straight pieces of Ross track are made and I don't think they make flex track, so maybe it's not doable, yet.

Trains / Subways - What I have seen that works and what doesn't work here. 

S. Korea: Vast Subway system from West Incheon to Eastern Seoul. You can go anywhere by Subway for $3 and a $2 taxi ride with a little planning. Trains come every 10 minutes.

China: High Speed Rail Between the Major Cities:  Run every 10 Minutes, costs about $50 each way. Very convenient, faster than flying and airport / security and lines. 

Shanghai has a major subway system. I only used a few times, but it was very clean and quick. Qingdao is building one now. Bejing probably has one. Hong Kong has a very nice one too. The rest are diesel powered rail lines between cities. Same time as driving.

Europe: We all know they have the best rail systems.

But where we are lacking here in the US, I think is in the commute. We probably use up 80% of our gas commuting to work in the cities, correct me if I am wrong. Here in CA, they did away with any mass transit in Northern and Southern CA in the mid 1900s. And they are very slow to bring it back. I don't know why they are pouring 15Billion into a high speed train between LA and SF. We don't go between LA and SF that much (in general). And frankly, it doesn't take that long to drive, 5 - 6 hours. If you go highway 5 it is quick and there is nothing between San Jose and LA. If you go 101 there are many cool small towns and lots to see. I just don't get it. If they used the 15Billion to build strong commute transit for the Bay Area and LA, that would have made a lot more sense and would have made a bigger difference. Just my opinion.

The Broken Commute:

If you want to go from Gilroy to Oakland you would have to take Cal Train to San Francisco. Transfer to BART, go east under the bay and pop up in Oakland. Total travel time, 2 hours.

If you want to go from Livermore to Mountain View, you have to take one of 3 ACE trains in the morning (3 come back in the evening, and none on the weekends). Transfer to Light Rail in San Jose and somewhere pickup Cal Train to get to Mountain View. Our commuting system is fragmented and can take hours to get from one place to another.

My "public transit" commute to Campbell from San Ramon went like this. I had to drive 15 miles to the ACE train station in Pleasanton, wait 20 -30 minute (oh I would have been to work by then), the train goes on the old SP Tracks, through a tunnel in Sunol and pops out in Fremont. It's very scenic but goes 25 mph.  Stops at the Fremont Station. Then it proceeds down the edge of the bay, and enters Santa Clara, and you can get off there for Silicon Valley Companies. Then it goes south East to San Jose's Diridon Staion. From there you take light rail VTA South to Campbell. Walk about 1/2 mile. Total commute time by rail, 2 hours. By car, 45min - 1 hour.  Sigh.

There is just no incentive to use mass transit, unless you live near a station or your work is within walking distance.

Here is where I think our government could make a difference.

Scott

...and/or rush hour traffic real sucks!

My 40 mile one-way commute takes 1 1/4 hours in the morning and 1 1/2 hours in the afternoon, if I drive it during rush hour.

Fortunately, I also have mass transit alternatives available, 10 mile - 20 minute drive to local train station that also doubles as a commuter bus station.  Then either a commuter bus ride to a metro station and two stops of the subway, or a commuter train to a closer metro stop and one stop on the subway.  Both leave me at the same metro stop which is a 7 - 8 minute walk to work.  Much as I love to ride the train, unfortunately, the bus is usually faster and runs a much more frequent schedule.

Interestingly, because of car pool lanes that the commuter bus can use in the afternoon, my commute time with either option is about 1 1/2 hours each way. 

I'm really a fan of mass transit, as I only end up driving 20 miles a day instead of 80! Can read a book or take a nap as well.  Plus, a lot of miles don't end up on my truck.  Also, my employer picks up my transit fees!

Jim