Like the commercials for financial planning and management say in their disclaimer, “Past performance is no indication of future results.”
George diSanti posted:Kohs keeps saying on his website that he has never failed to deliver a project. Well, there's a first time for everything. In the model manufacturing business, you can not rest on your laurels, because all that they show is that you have produced and delivered models in the past. It does not translate in any way that you will continue to do so. The one thing that he HAS failed to deliver is the truth.
George diSanti
Where the Tarheels rule!
Yep, those pesky Koreans should have shipped that along with the locomotive. Perhaps it got lost between Incheon and Detroit.
nw2124 posted:I hate to see Kohs go by the wayside. I guess I will count on someone else to do the rest of Kohs remaining list of models. Looks like those who have put their second deposit down are now out a lot more money as there is no proof of model in all these years. So much for the 3D way of doing things faster. Have you lost any money?
NW2124, - In answer to your question , no I bailed out and got a refund, I had completely lost faith in this project and its management, I had had enough of being misled and when the penny finally dropped that the locomotive had in fact not even been manufactured despite its appearance at the MM being promised on the importers site common sense told me to get out. A shame as I would have been interested in the AC12 too. Glossy brochures and lame excuses no longer cut it for me.
Interesting to note that another importer got a museum build quality locomotive from drawings to pre-production sample in 11 months. Punched rivets, scale tire profile, working leaf springs and opening smokebox door with interior detailing.
n.
You should only put money down when the product arrives, why should I as as a customer invest in his or hers business. Do I get a profit share? I don't think so.
Sorry if this not the way some of you do business but this is way we should do business. Let the importer put up his own money not mine.
What happens if it is never delivered, oh well! No money out of my pocket but how about yours?
Dave
David: You obviously have no idea how the market has evolved over the years. Even as a dealer I would take a deposit if I did not know you. Down payments have been done this way by some dealers since the 70s. It is very rare if a deposit is taken that a customers will not take the model. If an importer ask for a deposit you do get a return on your money! Overland took deposits for the O Scale SD70SCes and the SD70Ms. The price was $2200.00 or if a model was left over after delivery date it would $2800.00 full. Putting a deposit avoided the importer from borrow form the bank and paying interest and having to charge a higher price. When deposits are taken ALL save$$$$$$. I love saving $$$$. I have never lost money doing business this way. It doesn't sound like you are well informed on the brass market or participate in the market. There are companies in the HO plastic market that take deposit also. This nothing NEW!!!!!
AmeenTrainGuy posted:So is the actual pilot model built and not delivered, or does it not exist at all?
Seven years is quite a long time for a brass engine, regardless of how fine the model is. I do understand that there are lots of complications when building brass models, mostly because of the low demand for brass when compared to plastic. One is that it has become quite hard to find people who want to build these models. This is because of the fact that the younger generation of Koreans are more interested in working at tech factories.
There no evidence of a pilot model as we speak/as promised by the Importer. Rumors from my Friend in Texas is that the plans have not been approved. As the law requires that the model has to be in production or a refund is required in 30 Days. This has happened in the past as the person's lawyer did not even have to show up for court and won the case.
Hi George,
I've placed orders with Kohs 3 separate times and each time he delivered. Over the past 20 YEARS the same rumors almost exactly have come out that George won't deliver for each project. For all three projects that I bought into was the same rumors. It's bound to come true at some point. I mean, he's going to die some day.
Prices shifting into the $6,000-$7,000 has gone out of my league but there are a good number of people out there who would not lose any sleep over that amount. For some people the chance at having the ultimate Big Boy made is worth more than watching the money in a checking account.
What is interesting to me is that after all this time the same story comes around about the guy who get's in over his head over trains in Kohs league. Twenty plus years is not an exaggeration for this exact same tale, over and over again. And again. Once more, again. Again.
Chris said. "What is interesting to me is that after all this time the same story comes around about the guy who get's in over his head over trains in Kohs league. Twenty plus years is not an exaggeration for this exact same tale, over and over again. And again. Once more, again. Again".
Chris,
All American O scale is constantly under fire not just Kohs from all fronts, all the time I even whinge about it sometimes but as I said to my mate Bruce yesterday while both of us were working on the layout "we are doers not talkers we get around these problems and solve things and just enjoy the scale and don't take risks with our money" pity some on the fringe don't take the same attitude know your place and achieve your dreams. Roo.
Chris: This time the story is true. I know of several brass importers that have not delivered projects. Peco Brass is a name that comes to mind. Kohs has lied to a group of people at the March O Scale Show that the pilot model did not arrive in time. Then told several people that he would post photos the following Monday. Then we find out that no pilot model even exists. So why do you believe that this is not any different than past models being delivered by Kohs? The fact is seven years and nothing to show for his efforts. Now explain to me how you believe these are just rumors.
George diSanti
Where Tarheels rule
George,
I have been in the hobby since the 60's and I have heard these same stories time after time. I understand the theory of down payments for small importers and I understand why they do it but I don't agree the hobby customers should. I never have in the past and never will in the future but for those that do, its your money.
I have missed a few items due to my stand but that is how I feel. When it arrives I inspect it, test it and if it passes, I pay for it, never before.
Dave
I think I am with Christopher. These are non-essential items - contract for one any way that makes you comfortable. If you are comfortable with non-refundable deposits and no guarantee date, then why not? Enjoy your life.
If you are like me, just stand back, watch, and applaud the state of the art. I love Daylight Northerns, and really enjoy the Marsh pictures. But I'd rather build my own.
If you contract with Kohs or MMW for a large deposit, get your conditions in writing, and get it signed. Easy.
George diSanti posted:Chris: This time the story is true. I know of several brass importers that have not delivered projects. Peco Brass is a name that comes to mind.
Explain please, what that has to do with Kohs? Can't blame old GK for stuff other importers did or didn't do!
Kohs has lied to a group of people at the March O Scale Show that the pilot model did not arrive in time. Then told several people that he would post photos the following Monday. Then we find out that no pilot model even exists. So why do you believe that this is not any different than past models being delivered by Kohs?
Not a good way to do business, I agree, but the only likely things that assure the model will never show is if he passes on or goes out of business.
The fact is seven years and nothing to show for his efforts. Now explain to me how you believe these are just rumors.
You obviously didn't read this:
10/28/14 - Good news........the production schedule for the remainder of this year and 2015 has been set........long story short, the reservation process for the Big Boy can now begin!
Better check your math, hasn't been 7 years yet.
George diSanti
Where Tarheels rule
If you are so sure the guy is in the wrong, why don't you take him to court?
Simon
Simon: I can see your point. Even at 5 years and still no production that was supposed to be set in 10/28/14 and a 3D process that was to be a quicker turnaround and nothing to show for that amount of time would worry me. What I don't understand why lie to a group of people at a major train show and say the pilot model didn't make it to the show, Then say he would post the photos of the pilot model the following week (as that is what he had told me also at the show). Then George finds out that a pilot model doesn't exist. This is not Kohs normal delivery schedule for a model. Other importers have not deliver projects, and looks to be George's first to follow that path. looking down the track, does anyone see a train coming yet?
After being mislead at the MM and prior to this event by utterances on the website I decided this was a project I wanted nothing more to do with. Buying a model should be an enjoyable experience, from a £200 0-6-0 to a $6000 BB. I don't expect the importer to be my best friend but I do like to establish relationships with those with whom I choose to do business:
I don't expect to be lied to and yes when I signed up I had signed up for the long haul.
I inferred from this sorry state that the project had 'stalled' (?) for want of a better word and it was time to exit.
It has, additionally, somewhat soured my perception of the US 0 scale scene. It will be some years before I bother to visit the MM again, if at all.
Why anyone would build up a world class brand and then seek to undermine it is beyond me - reputations are hard won and easily lost.
The lack of any plausible explanation is also illuminating, draw your own inferences....................
Limey posted:After being mislead at the MM and prior to this event by utterances on the website I decided this was a project I wanted nothing more to do with. Buying a model should be an enjoyable experience, from a £200 0-6-0 to a $6000 BB. I don't expect the importer to be my best friend but I do like to establish relationships with those with whom I choose to do business:
I don't expect to be lied to and yes when I signed up I had signed up for the long haul.
I inferred from this sorry state that the project had 'stalled' (?) for want of a better word and it was time to exit.
It has, additionally, somewhat soured my perception of the US 0 scale scene. It will be some years before I bother to visit the MM again, if at all.
Why anyone would build up a world class brand and then seek to undermine it is beyond me - reputations are hard won and easily lost.
The lack of any plausible explanation is also illuminating, draw your own inferences....................
People need to really go back and read the first 3 postings from GK regarding the BB. it took 7 years for te first 3 from GK and hear we are 2019 and still no Pilot model that is 17 years still nada.
Bob
6/16/09 - Our 'Big Boy' project has not been updated in quite some time. The demand has certainly been building as we have worked through other projects, but the time is drawing near to push ahead on the 'Big Boy. We are currently reevaluating all of our remaining previously announced projects to make a firm determination of what our production schedule will look like for the next 18-24 months and that will govern what we do with the this project.
As I have worked on the development of our Challenger project, the versions of the 'Big Boy' to do are more clearly defined now and that information will be posted in the very near future, but in the mean time, the version count does remain at six.
7/06/07 - Our 'Big Boy' project continues to move towards production, unfortunately, not as quickly as most would like! The order of production will most likely change in the near future based on the lack of progress in obtaining reference material for other planned projects. If you are waiting for this project be assured that it will definitely be produced, we have over three thousand drawings on hand and a complete set of builder's photos, so all is in order to move ahead when the time is right. Be thinking about the versions that we should produce and do not hesitate to let us know your thoughts on that subject. Stay tuned for further developments in the coming weeks.
4/3/02 - This project has a new position in our schedule. A further update will be posted in the next few days.
George D.,
Everything that has been said here about the Big Boy project not proceeding IS THE SAME as what was said about the CHALLENGER project and the PENNSYLVANIA caboose project. Probably worse things were said about those projects and both of those WERE IMPORTED eventually. Kohs actually rejected an entire lot of the Pennsy cabooses for quality issues and they were sold out from under him in a hotel room during a show. Sheeeesh! We've been led down this road before. When I was buying the Y6 engines back in the early 2000's THE SAME THINGS were also said. If you are a high end train buyer and were awake at any time for the past 20 years, you'd know how this train rolls.
Since this has been the way of it for 20 years, I'd say sure 5 years is a long time, too long for my taste, and might be 1 year longer than the last project which was 1 year longer than the previous project. Considering the announcement date as the start of the clock in 0 scale IS LAUGHABLE though. But after hearing about every project that wouldn't be imported for the past 20 years, and then watching the projects actually get imported, I'll take the comments with a grain of salt. Still, I don't envy those who have money tied up who are concerned if Kohs is going to get hit by a bus or something.
christopher N&W posted:George D.,
Everything that has been said here about the Big Boy project not proceeding IS THE SAME as what was said about the CHALLENGER project and the PENNSYLVANIA caboose project. Probably worse things were said about those projects and both of those WERE IMPORTED eventually. Kohs actually rejected an entire lot of the Pennsy cabooses for quality issues and they were sold out from under him in a hotel room during a show. Sheeeesh! We've been led down this road before. When I was buying the Y6 engines back in the early 2000's THE SAME THINGS were also said. If you are a high end train buyer and were awake at any time for the past 20 years, you'd know how this train rolls.
Since this has been the way of it for 20 years, I'd say sure 5 years is a long time, too long for my taste, and might be 1 year longer than the last project which was 1 year longer than the previous project. Considering the announcement date as the start of the clock in 0 scale IS LAUGHABLE though. But after hearing about every project that wouldn't be imported for the past 20 years, and then watching the projects actually get imported, I'll take the comments with a grain of salt. Still, I don't envy those who have money tied up who are concerned if Kohs is going to get hit by a bus or something.
Your a trustworthy man and a patient man. Hope you'll stay young enough to enjoy it if it ever comes.
But taking someone's money for a project with no updates, or when promised project is completed or stages of the project. Then following with words that a pilot sample was late in coming with then promising pictures of the sample yet not following through with those that have put hard cash into a project that is decades old, is on the verge if not already "Fraud". Ask this simple question of any Lawyer. Reading these post and yes even posting my thoughts, I decided to call my neighbor who is a Lawyer and put all the facts for him down and even gave him this Forum to read and when he had time, call me on what his opinion was. Interesting. If your tired of waiting and want a refund for outlay, contact your Lawyer. Continuing discussions here, won't solve the problems. But you who have made a deposit, my sympathy.
Josef,
If people are sure Kohs won't deliver as he has in the past, then certainly they should go for the lawsuit.
On the other hand, he's delivered in the past under the same circumstances, lawsuit threats and doubt for 20 years. Lawsuits would torpedo the project with certain loss to investors and including demise of the project. Ask Butch. He rode it out last time with a lot of heartburn but eventually got a Challenger.
The merry-go-round will stop at some point. But after being told it would stop for the past 20 years, why would I necessarily believe it will stop right now without some uniquely new information from his doubters or uniquely new practices from Kohs himself? That is what I am looking for but have not seen anything new here that hasn't happened almost exactly the same in the past. So far, all I've seen is Kohs doing what Kohs does on Kohs time.
Christorpher: It is obvious you are not aware of what is going on with the BB project.You have forgotten that there has always been a sample model up front and early on in the previous projects. The sample should have been out for a few years by this time if "everything is exactly the same". The fact remains that he posted in Feb that there would be a COMPLETED sample on his table in March - there wasn't. He told everyone at the show that it was in transit and would be there Saturday night - it wasn't. He told everyone that there would be pictures of the locomotive on his website the week he returned - there wasn't. And to make matters worse, he posted photos of the tender PROVING that the locomotive isn't in his possession. Kohs is flat out LYING to people now - which is not EXACTLY THE SAME AS BEFORE.
christopher N&W posted:Josef,
If people are sure Kohs won't deliver as he has in the past, then certainly they should go for the lawsuit.
On the other hand, he's delivered in the past under the same circumstances, lawsuit threats and doubt for 20 years. Lawsuits would torpedo the project with certain loss to investors and including demise of the project. Ask Butch. He rode it out last time with a lot of heartburn but eventually got a Challenger.
The merry-go-round will stop at some point. But after being told it would stop for the past 20 years, why would I necessarily believe it will stop right now without some uniquely new information from his doubters or uniquely new practices from Kohs himself? That is what I am looking for but have not seen anything new here that hasn't happened almost exactly the same in the past. So far, all I've seen is Kohs doing what Kohs does on Kohs time.
Josef: The purpose of this discussion is to bring attention to those with deposits that there is nothing to show for in all these years and that we are not being told the truth. I wish this was not true, but it is what it is! A sad predicament to say the lease. No rumors here just the truth of the current affairs with Kohs.
Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!
Simon
Simon Winter posted:Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!
Simon
And has it accomplished anything?
Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?
After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?
Doubt it on all counts. My opinion. Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)
Roo posted:Simon Winter posted:Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!
Simon
And has it accomplished anything?
Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?
After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?
Doubt it on all counts. My opinion. Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)
Probably no cubed, but it is entertainment for the masses, 
Sad that you guys think BB reservation holders finding out that the project is not coming to fruition as entertainment and whining. I do not find deposit holders' anguish as entertaining or whining. It's sad that you guys laugh at others' expense. All I can say is shame on you.
George diSanti
Where Tarheels rule!
Well Said George! It is SAD that others can find entertainment when misfortune happens. There will always be a few that find it amusing at others expense.
I had herd that there was a dentist who did all of GK dental work and Gk paid him in 3 N&W Y6B models, for the work back when they were imported. Now this person seems to act like it is OK to get screwed and Bent over, judged By his postings. And defends him GK when this issue comes up. It is simple people need to Sue his *** to get there money back with interest. GK is 65+ years so how long will you wait , another 17 years.
Bob
Roo posted:Simon Winter posted:Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!
Simon
And has it accomplished anything?
Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?
After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?
Doubt it on all counts. My opinion. Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)
Yes Roo it has accomplished one thing:
Sunlight is a powerful disinfectant - it's going to make it very difficult to pull this stunt off again as its now very much in the public domain.
You and Bruce can discuss this at your leisure over the barbie - The power of social media in scales 1.43.5 - 1.48.
Opinion :-)
Limey posted:Roo posted:Simon Winter posted:Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!
Simon
And has it accomplished anything?
Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?
After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?
Doubt it on all counts. My opinion. Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)
Yes Roo it has accomplished one thing:
Sunlight is a powerful disinfectant - it's going to make it very difficult to pull this stunt off again as its now very much in the public domain.
You and Bruce can discuss this at your leisure over the barbie - The power of social media in scales 1.43.5 - 1.48.
Opinion :-)
Well lets hope so nobody like to lose money even worse when they know where they lost it and can't get it back. Bruce and myself discuss lots of subjects over the kitchen table with our sandwiches but this is not one of them.
Based on the numerous grammatical errors appearing on this thread in the last 24 hours, I’d say most of you had a great holiday. 😁
As for the sentiment expressed by a previous poster suggesting that the GK BB situation won’t happen again, I strongly disagree. While a few may learn, the obsessive compulsive need to acquire more of these models combined with the power of the written word by someone who is an expert at propagating his own self-indulgent tripe, is a recipe for this scenario to be repeated over and over again.
PRR 5841 posted:Based on the numerous grammatical errors appearing on this thread in the last 24 hours, I’d say most of you had a great holiday. 😁
As for the sentiment expressed by a previous poster suggesting that the GK BB situation won’t happen again, I strongly disagree. While a few may learn, the obsessive compulsive need to acquire more of these models combined with the power of the written word by someone who is an expert at propagating his own self-indulgent tripe, is a recipe for this scenario to be repeated over and over again.
You used the word tripe, I was originally going to use this word to describe the outpourings of the finest but hesitated as I was not sure it was a word in use in the US. My grandmother used it when still alive, I am not sure how she would have described this crock, as she didn't resort to expletives. My whole arsenal of expletives would be inadequate to describe the whole sorry saga. What does amuse me though is that a certain someone is sitting up there in MI seething at what is being written here.
In relation to the sentiment I hope you are wrong for the sake of the hobby..........................
n.
Did all of the people griping on this thread follow any of the hay that was made during the Challenger and Pennsylvania caboose projects a few years ago? Or are all of you newbies to this stuff? If you were awake at any point during those episodes, you'd know that people were accusing Kohs of lying right and left. So no, I don't really see this as being much different.
My guess would be that if you've been into 0 scale for a while, into high end trains and are following the Big Boy, then you followed the Challenger project. Did you guys buy Challengers, too?
From the posters here, some of this looks contrived, similarly to the onslaught of scare tactics during other Kohs projects when the projects came through, NOT fell through.
At some point you guys will be right but the past 20, Kohs seems to have followed through eventually against some serious doubt.
I'm going to need a little more evidence of his demise.
Bob Harris posted:I had herd that there was a dentist who did all of GK dental work and Gk paid him in 3 N&W Y6B models, for the work back when they were imported. Now this person seems to act like it is OK to get screwed and Bent over, judged By his postings. And defends him GK when this issue comes up.
Really? I think I know who you are referring to, but I've rarely seen this doctor post anything. Where does he post his defense of Kohs?
christopher N&W posted:Did all of the people griping on this thread follow any of the hay that was made during the Challenger and Pennsylvania caboose projects a few years ago? Or are all of you newbies to this stuff? If you were awake at any point during those episodes, you'd know that people were accusing Kohs of lying right and left. So no, I don't really see this as being much different.
My guess would be that if you've been into 0 scale for a while, into high end trains and are following the Big Boy, then you followed the Challenger project. Did you guys buy Challengers, too?
From the posters here, some of this looks contrived, similarly to the onslaught of scare tactics during other Kohs projects when the projects came through, NOT fell through.
At some point you guys will be right but the past 20, Kohs seems to have followed through eventually against some serious doubt.
I'm going to need a little more evidence of his demise.
Are you suggesting that because this situation having transpired before, those currently involved and aware of previous unpleasantries have no right to complain as they should have known better?
Chris: I have been a long time Kohs buyer of many of his projects with buying several variation of those projects. You have only bought a limited number of his projects. You Absolutely do not know what is going on! Have you gotten private emails on the many projects you have not purchased? You apparently do not have your glasses on (maybe you need magnifiers) to see the evidence in front of your nose. A blind cat can see that this is not the same as any other time! For those that have Dollars at stake and have already got a lawyer know the truth that this time it is much different. No one is complaining, but trying to inform others that do not know what is "NOT" happening. Fives years plus and counting and NADA is not the same as any other project. I do not know why you are stuck on the Challenger project. Get real, as those that are involved with this project know better.
Kohs has been updating his rolling stock projects stating that he will soon be taking reservation/deposits. I was just wondering how many will put down deposits on the next projects when a pilot model for the BB does not exist .
nw2124 posted:Chris: I have been a long time Kohs buyer of many of his projects with buying several variation of those projects. You have only bought a limited number of his projects. You Absolutely do not know what is going on! Have you gotten private emails on the many projects you have not purchased? You apparently do not have your glasses on (maybe you need magnifiers) to see the evidence in front of your nose. A blind cat can see that this is not the same as any other time! For those that have Dollars at stake and have already got a lawyer know the truth that this time it is much different. No one is complaining, but trying to inform others that do not know what is "NOT" happening. Fives years plus and counting and NADA is not the same as any other project. I do not know why you are stuck on the Challenger project. Get real, as those that are involved with this project know better.
I’d address you by your first name as you have addressed me by mine but apparently your preference is to HIDE behind a screen name.
1. You don’t know anything about my involvement in this hobby.
2. You don’t know anything about my collection.
3. You don’t know anything about my previous transactions with Kohs.
4. I’m not “Stuck” on Kohs Challenger or anything else from Kohs.
5. If “No one is complaining” then why are some hiring lawyers?
6. Please don’t drink and type here again! 🤣🤣🤣
Chris
nw2124 posted:Kohs has been updating his rolling stock projects stating that he will soon be taking reservation/deposits. I was just wondering how many will put down deposits on the next projects when a pilot model for the BB does not exist .
I'd surely be interested in PFE and FGEX reefers.
I'm very interested in seeing a sample of the work product of whatever builder is now building his rolling stock.
PRR 5841 posted:nw2124 posted:Chris: I have been a long time Kohs buyer of many of his projects with buying several variation of those projects. You have only bought a limited number of his projects. You Absolutely do not know what is going on! Have you gotten private emails on the many projects you have not purchased? You apparently do not have your glasses on (maybe you need magnifiers) to see the evidence in front of your nose. A blind cat can see that this is not the same as any other time! For those that have Dollars at stake and have already got a lawyer know the truth that this time it is much different. No one is complaining, but trying to inform others that do not know what is "NOT" happening. Fives years plus and counting and NADA is not the same as any other project. I do not know why you are stuck on the Challenger project. Get real, as those that are involved with this project know better.
I’d address you by your first name as you have addressed me by mine but apparently your preference is to HIDE behind a screen name.
1. You don’t know anything about my involvement in this hobby.
2. You don’t know anything about my collection.
3. You don’t know anything about my previous transactions with Kohs.
4. I’m not “Stuck” on Kohs Challenger or anything else from Kohs.
5. If “No one is complaining” then why are some hiring lawyers?
6. Please don’t drink and type here again! 🤣🤣🤣
Chris
PRR 5841,
I think you are confused about who you are responding to. I'm not NW2124 who is Stephen. Stephen is on your side responding to me. I'm Chris and apparently you are Chris, also? Please don't type while you are confused.
At any rate, heck yes, long timers in the know should have known better.
I feel for the guys with deposits at risk. Like I said earlier, if you are sure the project is dead, then sue. But I think that'll kill the Big Boy project altogether and loss of investment for all involved.
Until it happens, I'll still hold out that the project will go on. I was convinced by the doubters last time that the Challenger project and the Pennsy caboose projects were dead. I was very surprised and amazed to hear that they were imported after all the commentary and threats beforehand.
As my old Daddy used to say, don't believe anything you hear and about half of what you see and you'll do OK! He made it to nearly 94.
Too much innuendo and bad grammar, and spelling, and people being plain hateful, and lynch mob mentality.
Simon
OK...this discussion has gotten ugly....has been getting worse over time and at this point as far as OGR is concerned, has no place on this forum. There are personal remarks here that are against our TOS. The topic is closed... Take up your concerns and legal issues with the proper folks and leave the discussion privately via email....don't do it here!
