Updated TIU and Remote - now I have problems

Since you're not sure about the TIU, I'd start there and upgrade it to 6.1. Make sure you have a stereo plug for use in upgrading the TIU.  Then repeat your startup attempt.   Joe

Thanks.  I will try that since it doesn't take much time to do both, except for holding down or clamping down the start button on the remote.  I held it down the last time, but not this time.  I'll find a clamp.

It's easy to check the version in the TIU.

Menu, System, TIU Setup, and scroll to TIU Version, press the thumbwheel.  You can see the version of the remote when you power it up.

I just did a mass update of all my remotes & TIU's, so I suspect it's time for MTH to release a new version and negate all my work!

For updating the remote, I took a small spring clamp like the one pictured below.  I glued a small round door bumper to one of the jaws.  I use this to hold the remote button down for the upgrades.  You have no idea how long 6-7 minutes are until you've tried to hold your thumb with pressure on a small button for that amount of time.  Minutes seem like hours!

How is this TIU getting power? Is the red light on? How many times does it blink when you power up?

Connect the remote to this TIU with the 4 wire handset cord and press the "read". Report back what you get.

Make sure you don't plug the phone cord into the other jack on the TIU input!

I would triple check your wiring. It's the most common mistake when you remove the TIU from the layout. I've done it!

The fact you can't find the tiu is key and Joe has given you things to look at.  G

Thanks for the suggestions.  Still no success.

In answer  to what power  source, the TIU is connected to the fixed input for track 2 and the output is track 2 fixed. I could not see the TIU with the remote.  The remote continues to show TIU Address 1 Not Found.  When I apply power to the tracks, one of the locomotives responds in conventional mode  when I move the Trans former handle up and down - forward neutral reverse neutral.

I updated the TIU once again and got no error messages.  Then I tried to update the remote with no success. The program  gets to the point where it looks for the connection to the TIU but it stops, indicating that no connection can be found. Sounds to me like the problem is with the TIU.  There is a red light in the TIU, all cables are properly connected.

I guess I might need a new TIU or is there something more that I can do?  Are the TIU and remote still available?  I have a WIU that I want to use but will need a functioning TIU.

.

I'll recount an odd issue I recently found.

I had all my TIU's and remotes piled on the table, and I decided to upgrade them all to 6.1.  Come to find out that apparently some recent Windows update trashed the USB drivers, and I kept getting bad loads!  I switched to the serial port and finished all my updates.  I also note that when I tried to load a sound file to a board, it program kept telling me I had multiple engines on the track!  Same issue, the USB no longer works.  I changed TIU's, USB cables and ports, same issue.

If you're doing a Rev. L with the USB cable, I suggest you try the serial port.

"Thanks for the suggestions.  Still no success.

In answer  to what power  source, the TIU is connected to the fixed input for track 2 and the output is track 2 fixed." 

You have to power the TIU with either fixed #1 input or the aux power input!

Engineer Joe got what I was going to say. You either have to use AUX power to the aux port on the TIU or use FIXED one not two.

Thanks for that information.  I will change to Track One for both input and, of course, output.  Didn't realize that mattered.  That, hopefully, will solve the operations part but why can't I update the remote.  I tried on two different computers and got the same message -  Searching for COMx. I tried several USB  ports, got the same response.  Yet when I updated the TIU the COMx was immediately recognized.  If the TIU and the WIU work  then I really don't need the remote but I am  curious why the difference in communicating with the TIU.

Again, thanks for your help.

Did you unplug the stereo mini cable?

Yes, the mini cable was remove from the two ports.

Just connected my WIU to the TIU.  Another problem.  As I understand it, once connected the WIU becomes its own "network" and should be recognized as such on your iPad or cell phone.  I don't see it on either AND the only light that is lit on the WIU is Power.  The mode switch is set to MTH, a serial to USB cable connects the two.  This is the same cable that I used to update the TIU.  I believe that I should see three lights on the WIU when I connect it  - Power, TIU, and WiFi.  I only see the Power.  I connected the cables on the Z4000 to Track I fixed and then connected them on he TIU to input Track 1 fixed.  I connected the output to the tracks to Track I fixed.  

Again, if I raise and lower the throttle handle, one of the two locomotives on the track responds as if it were a Proto 1 locomotive.  Strange that only one does that.  

I am getting frustrated because I assume that even if the TIU is bad, the WIU should light up as it is supposed to and should send a signal as a network.  

Any and all ideas would be welcome.  

" I connected the cables on the Z4000 to Track I fixed and then connected them on he TIU to input Track 1 fixed.  I connected the output to the tracks to Track I fixed.  "

It sounds like your TIU or the serial cable is broke then. This can be very frustrating I know. I have been there too.

Did the red LED light up inside the TIU? Did it blink just once at power up?

Can you connect the remote with the 4 wire cord to the TIU powered up and press read?

If an engine comes up, press start up and then check the track signal strength.

Let's make things simple first.  Now that you know the TIU must be powered via F1 or Aux power.  Is it working?  Can you read TIU revision? Is it 6.10?

If so, then retest layout with just TIU and remote.  Test each engine separately.  Do single strength test separately on each engine.    Once you know your TIU, layout, and both engines work fine go back and follow instructions to add the Wifi Unit.  Test it with just one engine on track.   G

I have done everything that both of you have suggested with these results.

I still get a message  on the remote TIU 1 NOT FOUND.  I try to do a read and nothing happens.  I tried to ADD an MTH Loc and the remotes shows SEARCHING For ENGINE but nothing happens.

This is where I am at.  Again, there is power to the track.  I can use the throttle or the direction button to start one of the two locs on the tracks.  

When I first power up the Z400 I get two red flashes and then a constant green.  The TIU just shows a constant red light with no initial flash.

It appears that the TIU is just serving as a power to the track past through from the the Z4000 but not communicating with the remote.

Two red flashes indicates the TIU thinks it's #2, did you add TIU #2 to your remote?

That was two red flashes on the  Z4000, John. No flashes on the TIU.

" I connected the cables on the Z4000 to Track I fixed and then connected them on he TIU to input Track 1 fixed.  I connected the output to the tracks to Track I fixed.  "

Does this not seem quite right ? After removing the WIU from the equation, shouldn't the output from one handle of the Z4K go directly to Fixed #1 Input on the TIU and then out to the track from Fixed #1 Output - then turn everything on and push the throttle to 18v and go from there or did I misread something ?

If you get no flash in the TIU, it's broken.  First off, are you sure you're looking at the right LED?  There are two in the Rev. L TIU.  The one you should be looking at is right near the remote input jack on the right side if you're looking at it with the output jacks facing you.

" I connected the cables on the Z4000 to Track I fixed and then connected them on he TIU to input Track 1 fixed.  I connected the output to the tracks to Track I fixed.  "

"Does this not seem quite right ? After removing the WIU from the equation, shouldn't the output from one handle of the Z4K go directly to Fixed #1 Input on the TIU and then out to the track from Fixed #1 Output - then turn everything on and push the throttle to 18v and go from there or did I misread something ?"

Yes, you maybe right. However we don't really know what he's describing here. We need to see a picture so we can understand exactly what he's connected and a video to see what he's seeing. Until then, we have to rely on his descriptions. Only the good Lord knows what has really happened. 

Welcome to the free internet trouble shooting.

People have to understand that the WIU lights up the TIU light. However that doesn't power the TIU to run trains with. It does that so it can communicate with the TIU. Subtle difference that can cause big issues.

Here is the latest.  First, I have made all the correct connections from the Z4000  (facing the back, from the last set of ports on the right) to the TIU (Fixed In 1)  and then from the TIU (Fixed DCS Out1) to the tracks.   The WIU is not connected.

My TIU is 20 years old with the Proto 2 Emblem, not the DCS emblem.  It is definitely not a Rev. L.   Near the Aux Input  Port (where the telephone cord would go) there is a small hole through which I can see a red led.  There are no other lights to be seen when the TIU turns on.  

After making all of these connections, I turned on the Z4000 with both throttle handles in the fully down positions.  I then advanced the Track One throttle to 18 v. while watching the TIU led.  No flash at all.  Just a steady red that remains red.  

When I go to TIU setup in  System on the remote menu I see only one TIU - TIU1.  When I try to read the version I get nothing.  When I try to add a loc the remote just keeps searching.  

I get occasional messages on the remote - Out of Range, TIU 1 Not Found and No DCS Engines on the Track.  I used the telephone cord and moved it about and still got the same error messages.

All of this, I think, means that there is no communication between the TIU and the track and between the TIU and the Remote.  Which means that I have a "fried" or failed TIU.  What is strange is my apparent ability to update the TIU with no error messages and then, my inability, to update the remote, which goes through the TIU.  

Again, thanks for staying with this and providing useful info that helped me sort out the issue - I think!

If you have any other suggestions or insights I will follow them.

 If you have an engine on a powered section of track. You said you were trying to add one. If DCS isn’t present on the layout for whatever reason. Shouldn’t the engine power up in conventional.

It's time to take the TIU and remote to a DCS tech I believe. Something went wrong.

I don't see any info on where you live and just these posts under your activity. There are plenty of service techs around who can help here.

What's perplexing to me, and I suspect everyone else who has contributed, is how a good working TIU gets "fried" from a software update process. That doesn't make sense to me which, in turn, makes me believe/hope that there is some other solution.

 Presuming the engine is coming up silent. Do you hear a relay like click from the engine. This is the watchdog signal that it’s seeing DCS.

 Are you using a programming track to add the engines ?   Many layouts have sections that don’t get the best of signals. This is often masked as your engines remember the last command given and will roll right through them. Any change in the remote these will pop up. Such as a continuous blowing horn. You maybe trying to add your engines on one. To really keep it simple. Can you try adding on a separate piece of track. Your earlier post of one engine coming up silent and one coming to life has me wondering how good your track signal is if you are trying to add them on maybe the easiest to reach spot on the layout.

FWIW, I had an issue recently that I described above.  I was using USB and a new Windows update has apparently scrambled the ability to update using the USB.  I switched to serial and did my updates.  I couldn't load sound files or anything with USB.  Nothing changed, and I tried multiple TIU's and even remotes.  Very odd...

Try a different Windows machine and update the TIU again.  No flashing light means there's a problem!

 John, in the process of updating a TIU and the new version doesn’t load. Does the TIU just revert back to whatever version was last in it ?  Or do you end up with a non working set up ?

Here are some pictures which show the connections and some of the error messages.

Dave_C posted:

 John, in the process of updating a TIU and the new version doesn’t load. Does the TIU just revert back to whatever version was last in it ?  Or do you end up with a non working set up ?

It should revert back to what it had previously, but that depends on where the load fails.  When mine failed the load, I could see the TIU, but the version was blank.  After I programmed using the serial port, I got the correct version.

Sean, if you can still find the TIU with the loader program, by all means, try updating it again.

Now that you know how to power up the TIU, go back and try to reload Ver 6.10 on the TIU only.  No remote upgrade.  Make sure nothing went into any wrong port when you last tried to load the remote.  IF you plugged in the remote cord to the AIU port you could have damaged the TIU.

The fact the TIU does not give you an address indication is a problem.  There is no address so you can't address it with remote.  If the reload will not work because the loader program can't talk to TIU chances are the Memory chip is damaged and that is why the TIU is not working. 

But it is possible something you plugged into the TIU while trying upgrade has hung up so make sure serial port not damaged, remote plug connectors not bent over, AIU port connectors not damaged, and the audio plugs also.   Hopefully you can get a reload done, followed by factory reset of TIU and get an address back.  G

Again, thank you all for your help in trying to resolve my problem.  I am still trying, but with no success.

In looking for information about the TIU I found a manual for the TIU which referenced the Rev. L version.  The manual indicates on its cover that it deals with DCS and WiFi.  It outlines the connections for the TIU to a transformer and to the track.  But nowhere in the manual does it refer to the WIU.  

Here is the puzzling piece, after describing the connections, with no mention of the TIU, it then describes how to use the app for your phone or iPad to control trains.  Is it possible to use this app and only a TIU to control trains.  Did I miss something.  Interestingly, MTH sells a combined TIU and WIU as a single unit.  

Another interesting fact is that the Rev. L that I see in pictures still has a serial port.  I thought it had a USB port.

I will continue my quest to resolve this.  

They have both.  I am not sure why your still trying the WIFI.  If you can not get the TIU Red LED to blink, but rather stays on solid.  You have a defective TIU.  Since the last thing you did was trying to load new software, that is most likely the culprit.  Either it failed, or a bad load.  You have to go back and try to load TIU software.  Did you?  If the loader can not see TIU.  It is broke.  End of story,  if your connecting it correctly.  G

For the third time I updated the TIU with no apparent problem.  No error messages.  When I tried it, nothing worked. Got the same OUT OF RANGE message.  

I asked my dealer to tell any MTHer that came into the store that I wanted to test my TIU.  One called me today and I went to his home to test the  TIU.

 He has a Rev. L.  I brought my TIU, Remote, and WIU to his home.  We tested each using his TIU for the remote and the WIU.  Both worked perfectly.  My Remote read his TIU address and version.  I added an MTH engine.  As for the WIU, it also worked on my Android phone using just HiFi.  

Finally we swapped out the TIU.  Nothing from either the Remote or the WIU.  I noticed the larger second light on his TIU that I do not see on mine.  Apparently, my TIU, as several of  you indicated no longer works.  It can send power to the track but not a DCS signal.  Somewhere along the way I must have damaged the TIU in the updating process.

I have found another dealer who has both the Rev. L and WIU in a combined set an have bought it.  I expect it by the weekend.  Will let you know the results using these items.

Again, thanks for all your help in trying to solve this.  

The one time I had the "Out of Range" error, but did have power to the track, I discovered that the tracks were just tarnished enough that they would not pass the RF signal to the pickup rollers.  In my case I could get intermittent communication but when I ran a "track signal" test, I got wildly fluctuating signal strength.  I cleaned the track with a Scotch-Brite and my problem was immediately solved with a '10' signal strength all the way around.

First,  Did you use aux power to do the TIU upgrade?  If that LED did not come on, though I assume the other Red one flashed on then off, How did it update.  It would not.

If you have power to F1 and there is no LED light, the TIU is not powered. Yes Fixed channels pass thru AC power.  So either F1 fuse blew, easy fix, or if you used an aux power source with over sized barrel it can damage internal contactor, and when you remove it to use F1 as power the TIU thinks your using aux power which your not, and it won't power up.

So check fuse if you did not use aux power during upgrade.

By the way I your pictures above your LED is lite.  Clearly seen at bottom of photo.  G

Initially I used a Z1000 brick connected to Aux Power.  Could that have been the problem?  Is its barrel connector too large/long?  I did not see any flash. My computer indicated that it was reading the code and transferring it.  I got no error messages.  At the end of the process it simply stated that the audio cord should be removed and the Aux power.  As I have stated before, the update appeared to go smoothly to completion. 

I have given up on this TIU, although I still think, as several of you do, that there is just one thing preventing the TIU from working.   I would love to have someone, other than me look at it. Are there forum members who do that for a fee?  I am sure they will find the gremlin that is causing the problem or confirm that the TIU is broken and can't be repaired or is not worth repairing.  

So, as I indicated in an earlier reply, I purchased a combination set that included a Rev. L TIU and a WIU.  It arrived yesterday and I set them up today. First, I connected the TIU.  Everything worked, using the handheld remote from my original TIU.  (This set, for obvious reasons, does not come with a remote.)  I was able to load engines and run them.  I checked the version of the TIU which is 6.10.  It would have had to be since I was using a remote that had version 6.10.  I checked track voltage, signal on the track, battery - all within acceptable ranges.

I then connected the WIU and it worked, but I was disappointed since the free version is plain vanilla.  It took me sometime to finally realize that I had to purchase the Premium upgrade using the DCS app on my Android, which I did. 

Next I connected my AIU and added switches.  I set them up using the remote which was able to control them.  I added them to the app and they worked with the DCS app.  Interestingly, setting switches with the app is somewhat complicated.  I think I like setting them with the remote which is quicker.  

The soft keys, however, are great on the DCS app since you don't have to look up the abbreviations.  Each function is listed in plain text.

So once again, thanks for all your help.  Things are now normal, perhaps the only thing in this very scary time.

To all - stay well.

I power my TIU with a Z500. The Z1000 should have been plug and play. I would check the voltage of the Z1000. It is possible that it is at fault, but I doubt it.

Yes sometime it can bend the tab.  Simple to plug the Z-1000 back in and see if LED comes on.  If so that was the issue and you need to have that plug replaced, or just power up the TIU with Aux power.  Which most like to do anyway when running a larger layout.  G