Thinking about buying a MTH protosound 2.0 diesel locomotive can this be upgraded to TMCC or legacy
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Sure, I've done tons of upgrades both ways.
Thanks John could you tell me about what it would cost
@trainbob posted:Thinking about buying a MTH protosound 2.0 diesel locomotive can this be upgraded to TMCC or legacy
Putting a PS3/2V stacker board in would be easier. Plugs on the wiring harnesses would match. Speaker would need to be changed to a 4 ohm. Just need to know if the engine has 5v or 3v boards. MTH can program the soundset into the new boards too.
It would be a ground up retrofit to switch to TMCC/ Legacy as far as I know.
I'm not an expert, only getting my feet wet with this stuff.
Bob
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Only have the legacy command control and Airwire. Don’t plan on buying any other control system. That’s why I am asking about switching to tmcc or legacy
The basic pieces you need for the TMCC upgrade are the ERR Cruise Commander and the ERR RailSounds Commander. At MSRP, those two kits are $290.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The basic pieces you need for the TMCC upgrade are the ERR Cruise Commander and the ERR RailSounds Commander. At MSRP, those two kits are $290.
Add to that if this is a steam engine and you want synchronized puffing smoke you have to add more circuitry. If you have to have someone else do the work the bill could easily be well over 500 bucks.
If there is already a TMCC or Legacy version of your engine you are probably better off selling your MTH engine and looking for an alternative.
Pete
Wow did not expect it to cost that much. I agree with Norton. Thankfully the locomotive is not mine it is up for bid at Stout auction. The only tmcc option that exists now is an Atlas version and I doubt if Lionel will make it because the locomotive is an Alco 628 which I don’t think Lionel has ever done
Any complete upgrade is going to be expensive. Obviously a diesel can be cheaper than a steam, unless you want the diesel to smoke as well. Then you’re right back up there again……question is, if you can get the engine at a good price point to warrant the upgrades in your own mind…….If the Atlas version is rare to see on the market, or sky high if it does show up on market, then swapping a MTH model could be an option…if you can accomplish the upgrade yourself, then you can certainly save quite a bit at least on the labor side…..
Pat
Actually I own the Atlas version. In case anyone wants to know it’s the Lehigh Valley snowbird. The issue with Atlas locomotives with me is of the four Atlas locomotives three don’t work anymore. My thought was to buy the MTH version and upgrade it and then sell the Atlas one
I do battery conversions on my G gauge locomotives and add Airwire motor controllers. Would the upgrade to TMCC be similar
@trainbob posted:I do battery conversions on my G gauge locomotives and add Airwire motor controllers. Would the upgrade to TMCC be similar
If you can follow basic install instructions, it’s not difficult at all. Getting your feet wet with a diesel is a lot easier than doing a steam engine at first. I don’t know what’s involved lighting an Alco 628, so that might get a little tricky setting up a lighting circuit, but even that isn’t horrible…..
Pat
If your Atlas engines have TMCC it would not be as difficult to replace the electronics with ERR. Lights, couplers, and smoke unit would already be compatible and you could likely do it yourself.
Pete
@Norton posted:If your Atlas engines have TMCC it would not be as difficult to replace the electronics with ERR. Lights, couplers, and smoke unit would already be compatible and you could likely do it yourself.
Pete
Thanks Pete. You’re saying just run the Atlas until it dies and then upgrade to ERR
Also just thinking out loud a legacy powermaster would let me run the MTH conventional
@harmonyards posted:Any complete upgrade is going to be expensive. Obviously a diesel can be cheaper than a steam, unless you want the diesel to smoke as well. Then you’re right back up there again…
Actually Pat, if you're converting an MTH locomotive with smoke to TMCC, converting the smoke unit to work with TMCC costs very little extra.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Actually Pat, if you're converting an MTH locomotive with smoke to TMCC, converting the smoke unit to work with TMCC costs very little extra.
Yes, …you’re correct, ..I forgot they’re already equipped,…..senior moment…
Pat
Was just checking Stout Auctions again and noticed they also have a C-628 with locosound. Would this locomotive be a better choice for an upgrade to TMCC
@trainbob posted:Was just checking Stout Auctions again and noticed they also have a C-628 with locosound. Would this locomotive be a better choice for an upgrade to TMCC
No. Either way you have to gut out all the factory electronics to install the TMCC electronics. Same amount of work either way.
Okay thanks Lou. Although the locosound locomotive will no doubt go for a lot less
Bob, the fact that it's cheaper, as long as the exterior detailing is similar, certainly makes it a bit less painful to do the upgrade. 
You can convert virtually any can motor equipped locomotive to TMCC assuming there's room to fit the boards. 
I think the exterior is basically the same John. If I buy this a trip to Hennings Trains may be in my future
It's too bad the equation for installing ERR components has changed so significantly in the past few years, as the cost of the ERR products has gone up so much. It used to be a lot easier decision to do an ERR conversion. Those days seem to be gone, now that in many cases it's gotten more cost-effective to just sell the engine and buy another already equipped with these features, rather than spend what has become big bucks to do ERR conversions.
Adding the sound really drives up the cost. If that can be bypassed, it seems doing a conversion to add TMCC and cruise may still be worthwhile.
@breezinup posted:It's too bad the equation for installing ERR components has changed so significantly in the past few years, as the cost of the ERR products has gone up so much.
You're certainly right nowadays. The combined MSRP of the Cruise Commander and Railsounds Commander is $290 + shipping! Gone are the days of getting both of them for around $200. 
No disagreement here but the chances Lionel makes this locomotive is slim to nonexistent. Of course one consideration is the cost of the locomotive to begin with. My success bidding on Stout Auctions has been pretty poor. Prices tend to go to high for me
That's an argument for the ERR upgrade if you really want TMCC/Legacy.
John what is your opinion using a power master with the MTH locosound locomotive
@trainbob posted:John what is your opinion using a power master with the MTH locosound locomotive
It'll work, I was just never enamored with the sound from a Locosound locomotive. I actually have one around here somewhere, a small steamer. I used it to demonstrate the Super-Chuffer running in conventional mode.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You're certainly right nowadays. The combined MSRP of the Cruise Commander and Railsounds Commander is $290 + shipping! Gone are the days of getting both of them for around $200.
Your right John, I remember when I bought these boards from a guy in Connecticut. I think the total was just over hundred bucks. Then again everything was cheaper. My only issue is I took these boards once to a friend who builds electronic boards for specialty devices. He priced everything out , let’s say it was a lot less. But as my Dad would say “ if you want to dance, you got to pay the fiddler”.
@ThatGuy posted:Your right John, I remember when I bought these boards from a guy in Connecticut. I think the total was just over hundred bucks. Then again everything was cheaper. My only issue is I took these boards once to a friend who builds electronic boards for specialty devices. He priced everything out , let’s say it was a lot less.
How often do we forget, in any manufacturing business it's not only about what the parts cost, there's got to be a (small?) profit in it to cover employee's wages (labor), shipping and handling, taxes, the cost of holding inventory, and the risk that the owner of the business takes on a daily basis, among other things.
@ThatGuy, I think that you might have some experience in this area from what I've read in your earlier posts so I'm not challenging you on your conclusions, because you've made many points that are well taken.
But, do the rest of us expect someone, say a new competitor, to want to take this on, simply cover only their basic (piece part) costs, and then eat the rest?
(Uncontrolled inflation is the real killer here.)
Mike
How is the performance as far as running
To better ask this question. Is there a difference in performance between ERR and a legacy power master
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:How often do we forget, in any manufacturing business it's not only about what the parts cost, there's got to be a (small?) profit in it to cover employee's wages (labor), shipping and handling, taxes, the cost of holding inventory, and the risk that the owner of the business takes on a daily basis, among other things.
@ThatGuy, I think that you might have some experience in this area from what I've read in your earlier posts so I'm not challenging you on your conclusions, because you've made many points that are well taken.
But, do the rest of us expect someone, say a new competitor, to want to take this on, simply cover only their basic (piece part) costs, and then eat the rest?
(Uncontrolled inflation is the real killer here.)
Mike
No I think you took my post the wrong way, I was just thinking out loud. Let’s not forget that a 700E was way over a months pay for most people. As always it is economy to scale. Could I produce a cheaper board as a one off yes, but hundreds not a chance and I know it. In the end it is how much you love it or the sentimental value of the piece.I have converted 100s of engines for people and some are worth about 2 bucks, but to see the face of a customer when the train fires up……….makes it priceless. I’m sure Gunrunner has converted a few that really had no book value…….as I always says it’s yours enjoy it.
@trainbob posted:To better ask this question. Is there a difference in performance between ERR and a legacy power master
There will certainly be a difference in performance, a true TMCC conversion with ERR will undoubtedly yield better running and more features. You lose electrocouplers, remote control of smoke and lights, crew talk, etc. Conventional running is not the same as running in command mode.
@ThatGuy posted:I have converted 100s of engines for people and some are worth about w bucks, but to see the face of a customer when the train fires up……….makes it priceless. I’m sure Gunrunner has converted a few that really had no book value…….as I always says it’s yours enjoy it.
Yep, plenty of low cost locomotives get converted. I did several of the Polar Express set locomotives to full TMCC with fan driven smoke. The conversion was multiples of the price of the locomotives, but that's what the customer wanted. I've had people bring semi-scale locomotives that can't be worth more than $75 for a full upgrade.
I even did a full TMCC upgrade with sound on a $5 eBay bank. 
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:How often do we forget, in any manufacturing business it's not only about what the parts cost, there's got to be a (small?) profit in it to cover employee's wages (labor), shipping and handling, taxes, the cost of holding inventory, and the risk that the owner of the business takes on a daily basis, among other things.
The rule of thumb for years was manufacturing cost was 25-30% of MSRP, I doubt that's changed over the years.
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@gunrunnerjohn posted:Yep, plenty of low cost locomotives get converted. I did several of the Polar Express set locomotives to full TMCC with fan driven smoke. The conversion was multiples of the price of the locomotives, but that's what the customer wanted. I've had people bring semi-scale locomotives that can't be worth more than $75 for a full upgrade.
I even did a full TMCC upgrade with sound on a $5 eBay bank.
The rule of thumb for years was manufacturing cost was 25-30% of MSRP, I doubt that's changed over the years.
Yep- Full ERR upgrade with LED lighting. I don't do it for the value, I do it cause its fun and something I have the skills (sort of), to do. And besides, according to my wife I work for free.......
Always wondered where the Wiener Mobile came from John!
Bob
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I did one TMCC beep as well. This was the "deluxe" upgrade with cruise, sound, custom lighting all around, etc. I contemplated electrocouplers, but that looked like a can of worms, so I didn't do it.
Cruise Commander Lite Beta Test, Part Deux
Yes- I neglected to give credit where credit is due. I followed (and emailed often) John's Beep project.
Bob
@gunrunnerjohn posted:There will certainly be a difference in performance, a true TMCC conversion with ERR will undoubtedly yield better running and more features. You lose electrocouplers, remote control of smoke and lights, crew talk, etc. Conventional running is not the same as running in command mode.
Yep, plenty of low cost locomotives get converted. I did several of the Polar Express set locomotives to full TMCC with fan driven smoke. The conversion was multiples of the price of the locomotives, but that's what the customer wanted. I've had people bring semi-scale locomotives that can't be worth more than $75 for a full upgrade.
I even did a full TMCC upgrade with sound on a $5 eBay bank.
The rule of thumb for years was manufacturing cost was 25-30% of MSRP, I doubt that's changed over the years.
I love it…….what a great idea. What was the underpinning you used?
@ThatGuy posted:I love it…….what a great idea. What was the underpinning you used?
It was a K-Line power truck, I just hogged out the bottom of the body and fashioned some primitive mounts to secure it.
