UPS shipped from the fair grounds.

Hi Eddie,

@Traindiesel had a bad experience, hopefully he will see this and post what his issues are and see if others have had similar problems.

Best, Dave

One of the main reasons most train enthesitis is not to pay shipping and not a chance there locomotives will be damaged, plus the shipping cost. I recently sent an FEF engine to Nampa Idaho cost $118.00 !

I had to deliver 2 mth Z4000 transformers so the customer would not have to pay the shipping cost plus not take chance of the heavy Z4000 might get damaged!

Alan

If you’re shipping/receiving trains, (or anything else) and NOT using Pirateship.com, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.

From the other York purchases thread....

Well, I got the bad news this morning. My box of trains and related items I bought at York are gone forever.

According to the guy at the UPS store that shipped packages from York, the facility that was holding the packages for fraud alerts “disposed” of the packages after an unknown period of time. No contact to the people waiting for them or to the store that shipped them. My only recourse now is a claim for the items I had shipped. However I was told to send them a list with prices directly to the store to be reimbursed for the contents. Not through the UPS website. I asked them to email me the process he described so I could have a reference to respond to and to have a record of what happened.

Apparently this happened to all the packages shipped from the York Meet. He was in the process of calling all those that shipped items from the Fairgrounds. It sounds like the store is going to take the hit for this fiasco. Now the wait begins to see if I ever get my money back. I’ll be looking for alternatives for shipping items I buy at York in the future.

I've been shipping from every York Meet that was held since we moved to Southern California without incident. But with this debacle it's been hard to get any solid info of what happened. UPS customer service has been non existent, even beyond the useless automated system.  I tried a couple different operators and kept getting referred to the store at York the package was shipped from.  After a few days of trying to get through to them they finally answered and told me about the fraud alert issues.  Then they said 'Don't worry, you'll get your package'. On Friday I was told it was disposed of after an unknown number of days.  They also said it happened to every package sent from the Fairgrounds from Friday through Saturday afternoon.  But I haven't found any other people this happened to.  I don't know if I'm being fed a bunch of horse hockey or someone is covering up incompetence or both.

I'm sure if the package was thrown away and some dumpster diver probably fished it out by now.  I'm not worried so much about the trains, I can find them again or buy something else provided I get reimbursed.  I have sent the email list of items and receipts to the store for reimbursement as they requested.  Now I'll see if that actually happens.  If not done in a reasonable amount of time I'll have to take the next step.

I'm surprised no one else has reported this here.  The store told me he was calling people all day to give them the update.  I guess the people who shipped items from the Fairgrounds are not OGR forum members!

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

If you’re shipping/receiving trains, (or anything else) and NOT using Pirateship.com, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.

Pirate Ship saved you

$1,473.43

Lifetime total savings vs Retail Pricing

The problem with this is that you still have to take your shipment to a store to ship it.  That's where my problem began, not the cost of the shipping.  The convenience was worth the shipping cost.  But it wouldn't have mattered where I got my shipping label if the store fumbles it.

This seems so fishy on so many levels.  I don't know where to begin.  Brian, sorry you have to deal with this but I still think something doesn't add up.

Hi Brian, I've had my share of problems with UPS years ago luckily, I had a friend who was a supervisor there who helped me, what I found out at the time was they will pay for damaged or lost items quickly but will only give you $100.00 back otherwise they refuse to give you anymore! good luck hope you Win!! Alan

p.s. I've had worse problems with FedEx and never got the money back! $1251.00

@Alan Mancus posted:

Hi Brian, I've had my share of problems with UPS years ago luckily, I had a friend who was a supervisor there who helped me, what I found out at the time was they will pay for damaged or lost items quickly but will only give you $100.00 back otherwise they refuse to give you anymore! good luck hope you Win!! Alan

p.s. I've had worse problems with FedEx and never got the money back! $1251.00

If you have purchased extra insurance above and beyond the $100 offered in the base price of shipping, UPS will honor it up to the penny, provided you can prove what the package contents are worth with receipts.

The same problem happened to me with the UPS shipping company. A lot of the stuff I had bought and shipped were very rare and almost impossible to find again. Knowing that the items I bought were just thrown away is sickening and disheartening. This was also my first time going to York and I am not interested in returning back because of this whole debacle. This should have never happened and has left a terrible experience in my mind. If I wanted to just throw away money, I'd do something else with my time instead of throwing trains in the trash.

From what I've heard from UPS is that there were 2 bulk boxes in two different warehouses. One in California and the other in a different part of the US. What I truly believe is that UPS got their shipping containers broken into at California because that has gotten so rampant and they're trying to save face. Even the UPS store at York said that the California center didn't even want to return the boxes. That's why I believe they were stolen.

@Traindiesel posted:

The problem with this is that you still have to take your shipment to a store to ship it.  That's where my problem began, not the cost of the shipping.  The convenience was worth the shipping cost.  But it wouldn't have mattered where I got my shipping label if the store fumbles it.

Brian - Your losses are inconceivable. But, I posted above as a PSA. I realize it doesn’t fit the specifics of every situation. I hope you are reimbursed to the penny.

Apparently it does involve other people, as the EDTCA put up a notice on their web site and social media pages instructing people who had problems to contact UPS.

Andy

I agree with Marty, something fishy happened here within UPS. Somebody got paid off somewhere along the line. I am sorry you are going through this what a shame. Dave

@Traindiesel  and @Penobscot Guys I am so sorry to hear this story. I agree, hearing that trains were (allegedly-doesn't make sense to me to throw the packages away) thrown away is sickening and disheartening. I feel terrible for you guys that you have to go through this. I sincerely hope that at the very least you guys and everyone else who this happened to will be reimbursed financially for the trains they lost.

@Penobscot posted:

The same problem happened to me with the UPS shipping company. A lot of the stuff I had bought and shipped were very rare and almost impossible to find again. Knowing that the items I bought were just thrown away is sickening and disheartening. This was also my first time going to York and I am not interested in returning back because of this whole debacle. This should have never happened and has left a terrible experience in my mind. If I wanted to just throw away money, I'd do something else with my time instead of throwing trains in the trash.

From what I've heard from UPS is that there were 2 bulk boxes in two different warehouses. One in California and the other in a different part of the US. What I truly believe is that UPS got their shipping containers broken into at California because that has gotten so rampant and they're trying to save face. Even the UPS store at York said that the California center didn't even want to return the boxes. That's why I believe they were stolen.

Your explanation makes a lot more sense to me than UPS just randomly chucking unknown packages in the dumpster.

I’m sorry this ruined your York experience - a complete bummer. I hope they make it right by you financially.

What a shame (and seemingly fishy story). 

Just as a question if anyone should know, does UPS (or Fed Ex, DHL etc) have salvage sale sites?

I know the LTL trucking companies (McLean - Winston Salem NC, Roadway - Akron OH) and even railroads at one time had sale sites where lost/damaged shipment were sold to the public in an attempt to at least regain some of their claim loss.  Unless burned in a wreck or terminal fire (both very rare) or perishable, the lost freight was handled in this manner.

@Traindiesel posted:

The problem with this is that you still have to take your shipment to a store to ship it.  That's where my problem began, not the cost of the shipping.  The convenience was worth the shipping cost.  But it wouldn't have mattered where I got my shipping label if the store fumbles it.

I have to agree with Marty, this smells like a barrel of rotten fish!

In the future, I think you need to find a trusted soul to ship them.  If they came in shipping cartons and it was just taking them to UPS or FedEx, I'd do some for you, I ship stuff all the time.  I've never had any shipping service tell me my shipment was fraudulent!

Like so many things taken for granted and deemed wholly reliable, eventually the weaknesses come to roost...

So, what can we learn from this unfortunate situation?  What should we do to protect those of us for whom an on-site, convenient shipping service at York...or any other meet/show/market...is almost essential in considering attendance?

Just knowing that having exceptional documentation of items to be shipped is now more essential for value recovery, what does the legal profession have to recommend, for instance?

I know that many of my meet transactions...big or little...have been 'receiptless'.   I suppose that's an accepted practice if both buyer and seller are in agreement.  Among sellers, for instance, would a request for a receipt be typically honored?  Among buyers...having the intention of shipping...would refusal by a seller to provide a receipt be a deal-breaker?  And what minimum information should a receipt bear to be honored by a claim against a shipper?

The EDTCA provides tables among the several selling sites for basic testing of a prospective purchase.  Would EDTCA also provide an appropriate table...probably adjacent to the shipper's location...for taking quick photos of the item to be shipped??  How about a copy service to provide copies of receipts and photos to attach to the shipping papers...those you keep and those provided to the shipper...with signatory acceptance thereof??

Et cetera and et alii.

It would be nice to flesh out the concerns, corrective actions, and communicate them through the websites, forums, regular mailings, and the like well ahead of the next York meet...April 2024...to put minds at ease, and/or help folks decide whether they should even plan on attendance if having a reliable shipping service or not is a meet-maker/breaker.

Just some thoughts.  Not too soon to get our arms around this...IMHO, of course.

Very, VERY sorry that any of our friends had to suffer exposure of the weaknesses in the current shipping service.

KD

@dkdkrd posted:

Very, VERY sorry that any of our friends had to suffer exposure of the weaknesses in the current shipping service.

KD

KD,  I agree completlely with your comments.  Given that the TCA requires everything to have price tags, perhaps taking a picture of each purchase with its price tag being displayed would be a good thing to do for insurance purposes.

I still can't believe that this has happened.  Hope there is some restitution for those impacted.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Brian - Your losses are inconceivable. But, I posted above as a PSA. I realize it doesn’t fit the specifics of every situation. I hope you are reimbursed to the penny.

Apologies, Mark!  I will definitely look into this for any future shipments.

@Penobscot posted:

.......From what I've heard from UPS is that there were 2 bulk boxes in two different warehouses. One in California and the other in a different part of the US. What I truly believe is that UPS got their shipping containers broken into at California because that has gotten so rampant and they're trying to save face. Even the UPS store at York said that the California center didn't even want to return the boxes. That's why I believe they were stolen.

This is something that I thought also.  Maybe the "fraud" was them allowing the packages to be stolen.  It sounded fishy to me when I was told they were listed as a fraud alert because they were shipped from the fairgrounds instead of the physical store.  The TCA Eastern Division website notice about this says the packages were mislabeled and to contact UPS.  Sounds like they just want to sweep this under the rug.  I referenced my past three shipping labels from York and they, including my current one, are printed with the same information and I received the previous three with no issues.

For my package, somewhere along the line it was relabeled with an 'alternate'  tracking number and delivered to a hub in Riverside, Ca.  In my conversations with UPS customer service and the store in York I have not received an answer to why or how an alternate tracking number or rerouting happened.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have to agree with Marty, this smells like a barrel of rotten fish!

In the future, I think you need to find a trusted soul to ship them.  If they came in shipping cartons and it was just taking them to UPS or FedEx, I'd do some for you, I ship stuff all the time.  I've never had any shipping service tell me my shipment was fraudulent!

What perked my ears up was when they told me it was a new process started a few months ago and nobody informed them. They didn't know corporate policy, if there even was one?  They also couldn't , or wouldn't, tell me what it was that triggered an alert other than it wasn't shipped from the physical store location.  Never was a problem before!

Surprisingly I received a reply to my claim email from the UPS store in York and the UPS Capital Customer Support this morning.  On the claim page it listed my contact information and this little comment:

Merchandise Description
Trains

Additional Comments
UPS salvaged this package because they thought it was fraud, which it was not. Told by our corporate manager to put in claim for full value because UPS salvaged the package and wasn't supposed to be.

Hoping for a miracle.

Has it been determined how widespread this disappearing act was in terms of the number of shipments affected?

The reason that I ask is that local TV stations in a medium to large market typically have a consumer investigative person in the news room.  I would bet that they would like nothing better than to chase this story down especially since there is a national company (UPS) involved and the circumstances are how shall we say not customary.

In the meantime IMO it would behoove TCA if they are not already doing so to lead the charge to get the straight story on this if for no other reason than TCA hired the UPS Store to take care of the shipping.  Its' not a good look IMO for TCA to sit on the sidelines and just post notices.

It is time to light up somebody's cage.

@Traindiesel posted:

Hoping for a miracle.

I'm hoping right along with you!

Its' not a good look IMO for TCA to sit on the sidelines and just post notices.

Absolutely!

Larry

Well at least that sounds hopeful Brian.

Chuck,

  You are making the assumption that there is a degree inquisitiveness on the part of press to investigate this issue.

Marty

Actually no I am not.  Local TV broadcast news departments are always looking  for consumer interest stories be it a home improvement contractor rip off,  a person wrongly evicted, or just maybe UPS improperly salvaging cherished purchases.

You won't see it on CNN, Fox etc, but local news just maybe.

If Brian can't get resolution from UPS it is worth a phone call or two if he so chooses.

Brian I hope you and others get your trains.  If not it will be interesting to see whether any of the trains that were allegedly "thrown away" surface in auctions or local train meets.  Someone should create a pinned post on the Forum listing all of the missing trains and contact info for the rightful purchaser.

I guess the next time I'm at York, I'll just have to drive any purchases to a FedEx office in Lancaster or Harrisburg that's open late.  It was a nice convenience having UPS at York, but IIRC they wrapped up for the day before the dealer halls close.  So I had already thought about arranging the shipping back to Texas by other means.  Now I'll plan on doing it!

Try contacting WPVI Channal 6 in Philadelphia. Nidia Han is their consumer investigator. I'd love to hear what she finds out!

Chris

LVHR

Brian;

I am so sorry for your loss (as well as for any others who are in the same boat). A former boss of mine used to refer to me as his resident cynic - as has been noted, this whole affair doesn’t pass the sniff test. I mean, we ain’t talking about a couple of small parcels here, and disposing of them so quickly seems to defy all investigative logic. Just wondering… has anyone contacted the local police authorities in York or whoever has oversight over interstate shippers like UPS???

@Larry Sr. posted:

Its' not a good look IMO for TCA to sit on the sidelines and just post notices.

Absolutely!

Larry

Hi Larry,  Actually, TCA has not posted anything,  I just looked. The notice is on the TCA Eastern Division  website.  This shipping problem is a huge deal,  as others have noted.  So, the TCA should get involved.  They put on big shows in different places.  Why would anyone want to go and not have a viable shipping options to send thing back home.

Doesn't UPS pick up packages directly from customers,  I don't get how they would think the label was fradulant because it came from the fairgrounds.

The TCA quit advertising on OGR,  so just sitting back looks par for the course.  Not sure I want to be a member anymore.

I’m not inclined to blame the TCA Eastern Division for this as the UPS table is a vendor like any other. The only thing they could really do is ban them from future Meets like any other bad actors. But can they find a replacement for April’s Meet? This is the first shipping disaster since I’ve been shipping trains home for the last six Meets.

I lay this problem squarely on UPS.

"Shipped from the York Fairgrounds" fraud issue sounds like someone on the inside at UPS knew it was model trains and found a way to have an instant collection or a good inventory to start a hobby shop. I would watch eBay and Facebook market place for the items lost.

@Traindiesel posted:

I’m not inclined to blame the TCA Eastern Division for this as the UPS table is a vendor like any other. The only thing they could really do is ban them from future Meets like any other bad actors. But can they find a replacement for April’s Meet? This is the first shipping disaster since I’ve been shipping trains home for the last six Meets.

I lay this problem squarely on UPS.

You have to wonder if the UPS table is actually manned by UPS employees how they can not accept full responsibility!  They had control of the process from the moment the item arrived at the table!

I agree John. Seems pretty cut and dry.

Wow, this is nuts. Sorry about your troubles @Traindiesel (and others).

I once got scammed on a shipment years ago via an LTL carrier (either Yellow or Estes or one of those, I can't remember). I'm positive in that case the shipping party was working with an employee of one of the above, because there was paperwork that claimed they delivered it!

My bet is on an inside job where someone thought they could pull one over on a bunch of "old toy train collectors" but didn't realize we have forums like this to organize and share experiences on!

Next time, if anyone needs to ship anything, I can do so from my house (about an hour away in Maryland). Just reach out to me via the email in my profile, or via private message on the forum. So many of you have helped me on here I'd be happy to pay it back.

I've never used my home owners insurance policy for this but at one point my agent told me my trains are covered even if not at home at the time of the incident. Not sure if this scenario would be covered but it seemed like if theft or fire at the Fairgrounds would be covered by homeowners. Hopefully, one never needs to test this but something to ask if you do.