Vision Bigboy - quality control issue - be careful

You guys crack me up with your engineering studies!!….how many of you are ME’s?….Let’s look at the common sense stuff, and get off the engineering nomenclature for just a second,….this crap is all made from die cast pot metals,….you know what pot metals do?…..they shrink, and they keep on shrinking for a right good while ….not something visible to the naked eye, but enough to make a screw come loose,….ESPECIALLY IN TRANSIT …….vibration is vibration, I don’t care how well you think it’s packed, it’s still vibrating!!….add temperature changes, & ya get loose screws….that’s the nature of this material,……adding lock washers woukd mean a redesign of that gear box to allow a recessed pocket for the lock washer….then y’all would cry about that added cost,…….and you’re not gonna get the Asians to bust out their microscopic torque wrenches and do a double click on every fastener…..the fella that had both base pans fall off just happened to hit the jackpot of loose screws….Go around your train room with a Phillips & a 5mm wrench, …..I guarantee you’ll find a loose fastener in amongst your fleets ….I’m not excusing the mfr.’s …..but man, use a little common sense, and put the ANSI books down for a minute ……geeeezzzz

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

.and you’re not gonna get the Asians to bust out their microscopic torque wrenches and do a double click on every fastener…

Pat

Well, sometimes they get the screws too tight.  Of course, I think this was a bigger tool that was needed to tighten this one!

I had fun getting it out as well.

I think we likely underestimate the amount of vibration these packages experience during their trans-pacific sea voyage and rail/truck shipping in the USA, as implied above. Loose screws are something I haven't seen personally, but one can well imagine how it happens to some products that were in a truck with worn suspension/bad alignment of the drive wheels.

Likewise, the lack of lubrication may be intentional,  because it's hard to adequately lubricate and not have some locos arrive with a mess of lubricant in the box or, worse yet, on the paint job.  I would guess they are coming down on the side of under-lubrication vs. winding up with lubricant on the loco body/packing materials.

Just thinking why things may be happening, other than merely "they're stupid and/or incompetent and/or intentionally trying to annoy customers."

@harmonyards posted:

You guys crack me up with your engineering studies!!….how many of you are ME’s?….Let’s look at the common sense stuff, and get off the engineering nomenclature for just a second,….this crap is all made from die cast pot metals,….you know what pot metals do?…..they shrink, and they keep on shrinking for a right good while ….not something visible to the naked eye, but enough to make a screw come loose,….ESPECIALLY IN TRANSIT …….vibration is vibration, I don’t care how well you think it’s packed, it’s still vibrating!!….add temperature changes, & ya get loose screws….that’s the nature of this material,……adding lock washers woukd mean a redesign of that gear box to allow a recessed pocket for the lock washer….then y’all would cry about that added cost,…….and you’re not gonna get the Asians to bust out their microscopic torque wrenches and do a double click on every fastener…..the fella that had both base pans fall off just happened to hit the jackpot of loose screws….Go around your train room with a Phillips & a 5mm wrench, …..I guarantee you’ll find a loose fastener in amongst your fleets ….I’m not excusing the mfr.’s …..but man, use a little common sense, and put the ANSI books down for a minute ……geeeezzzz

Pat

I am an ME thank you very much, have been professionally for 12 years now 😝. I know some around hear like to take engineering practices on their models too far, especially with lubricants. I’m simply commenting that lock washers may be pointless to add here.
I did plenty of proffesional investigation into fasteners and vibration during my almost ten years designing highway safety equipment. The crash attenuators I designed were subject to extensive vibration so selecting proper fasteners was critical.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

I am an ME thank you very much, have been professionally for 12 years now 😝. I know some around hear like to take engineering practices on their models too far, especially with lubricants. I’m simply commenting that lock washers may be pointless to add here.
I did plenty of proffesional investigation into fasteners and vibration during my almost ten years designing highway safety equipment. The crash attenuators I designed were subject to extensive vibration so selecting proper fasteners was critical.

Well, when we get to the O scale highway safety part, clearly you’re our guy!….😝

you hit the nail on the head, ….they take it too far out in left field, …….I mean, c’mon, put the screws back in it, and move on, ….if they can’t deal with screws falling out or becoming loose, then this really ain’t the hobby for them……as many have already stated, fastener checks should be job #1 on any purchase, new or used, simply due to the nature of the materials used,…..loose screws are part of the hobby ……make it part of your maintenance regiment …..

Pat

It isn't the loose screws at the bottom of the packing that I mind so much it is trying to figure where the little stinkers belong!

There’s enough folks on here that have torn down a gazillion engines, …..a quick post would more than likely yield the answers…

Pat

@Ryan Selvius posted:

I am an ME thank you very much, have been professionally for 12 years now 😝. I know some around hear like to take engineering practices on their models too far, especially with lubricants. I’m simply commenting that lock washers may be pointless to add here.
I did plenty of proffesional investigation into fasteners and vibration during my almost ten years designing highway safety equipment. The crash attenuators I designed were subject to extensive vibration so selecting proper fasteners was critical.

some were there was a report of a study done by NASA that came to the conclusion that split lock washers are practically useless.

@David Eisinger posted:

some were there was a report of a study done by NASA that came to the conclusion that split lock washers are practically useless.

As someone who has used a few thousand split lock washers so far in life on hundreds of pieces of machinery, I would strongly disagree. There are situations where they are not feasible and using a different fastener makes for a better fit. We lost about $300 of new sickle guards on a grain table last year because the guy who installed them thought the split lock washers were "optional". They have their place and it's not for every application but they do work.

My worry when finding loose screws in the box is what other screws or parts that I can't see are also loose due to QC or shipping problems? But as with any new engine, a good visual inspection will identify these quickly and that starts with the shipping box for obvious signs of shipping damage. My new engine shakedown procedure goes like this: Inspect and lightly/gently shake, listen for loose parts or screws. Lubricate the engine. Power up (don't move) and listen to make sure the sound is good. Mute the engine sounds and run a series of short slow speed test runs in both directions while watching it like a hawk and then re-inspect. Keep the sound off and listen carefully for every mechanical part & motor to ensure they are working as intended.

If the OP's problem is seen by others, perhaps the tiniest dab of thread locker would be best but I think this is a one-off situation. Everyone take note of this rare problem for this run of locomotives, run these engines plenty for a good break-in, keep an eye on those screws as well as everything else and report back if you see this or other problems. Neither your reputable dealers nor Lionel will hang you out to dry if this is more common or leads to catastrophic failure within your warranty period.

Most of the time in shipping is going to be spent at sea or sitting in port waiting to be offloaded. There's very little vibration going on. Gentle swaying on the open ocean, sure.

Think about all the products that are much cheaper that you buy everyday made in China, shipped across the globe and they work flawlessly. I've never had a TV, camera, radio, DVD player, tape deck, GPS, computer, monitor, appliance, or phone show up with loose screws. Those all get here the same way.

But I'd take all the screws in the bottom of the box over terrible paint or junk gears. The latter is way, way, way more work to fix.

@rplst8 posted:

Most of the time in shipping is going to be spent at sea or sitting in port waiting to be offloaded. There's very little vibration going on. Gentle swaying on the open ocean, sure.

Think about all the products that are much cheaper that you buy everyday made in China, shipped across the globe and they work flawlessly. I've never had a TV, camera, radio, DVD player, tape deck, GPS, computer, monitor, appliance, or phone show up with loose screws. Those all get here the same way.

But I'd take all the screws in the bottom of the box over terrible paint or junk gears. The latter is way, way, way more work to fix.

If they were coming across the open waters by sail, then sure, there’s no vibrations …but you forgot about the two big giant propellers powered by the even giant-er diesel engines,……

Pat

Any way you shake it, this stinks.  Got the call tag for mine today, it goes back for repairs at 3 days old.  Awesome.

@BillYo414 posted:

Are there are production figures for how many Visionline models get produced? I would love to know if 100 out of 20000 are damaged or if 10000 out of 20000 are damaged. That would be interesting information to see. I wonder if shareholders can get that info.

I bought two and the super set.  The one I got so far is flawless.  Have I had other issues with expensive products?  yep.  Do I care enough to stop buying them? Nope.  Always taken care of either an easy fix by me - or Lionel, or the dealer I bough it from takes care of it.  It sucks when you spend a few grand on something and it doesn’t meet your expectations - but I can say that about about cars, appliances, laptops - everything in a modern supply chain being produced has quality issues.  Best advice is take it up with the manufacturer and dealer and it will be fixed.  Given the margin on these things they don’t want to deal with an unhappy customer.  Easier to fix it now.

@harmonyards posted:

That’s nearly impossible to answer, …..it could’ve very well been tested at the factory, if the screws were not tightened as they should, but they were tight enough for testing, then all that shipping across the globe, temperature changes in the container, vibrations from being rocked on the ship, vibrations from being loaded & unloaded, vibrations from being trucked, then on the end user’s final delivery truck…..all that stuff comes into play here,…..is it excusable?, certainly not, but think about how those screws could’ve come out before you jump to your conclusion….

Pat

A properly installed and tightened screw would be able to survive that.  I received a couple of Lionel's recent steamers in the past few years with nothing of the sort happening, is it really the shipping conditions?

@BillYo414 posted:

A lot of the reactions scare me into not wanting to sell 3D printed structures because my printer simply can't print perfectly. It's constantly on my mind as I go forward and develop the model.

well if you're developing an o-scale Hulett Unloader or Blast Furnace I'll buy one at any price.  Some of us can distinguish between Major Manufacturer Top of the Line models and Take-What-You-Can-Get models.  Should a $2500+ Big Boy come from the factory with all the **** parts screwed in?  Yes.  Can a run of the mill model sell okay even if it's not prototypical?  I'd say yes.  I'll buy just about anything that's CNW or EJ&E if it they paint it as such, because I know not being a Pennsy or SF fan will limit my options.  MTH's Transfer Diesel in EJ&E colors looks nothing like the real ones they had, but I know it's the best I'll ever get in a ready-to-run model and I'll be ****ed if it isn't one of my favorite engines I own.

@Cheap&NothingWasted posted:

A properly installed and tightened screw would be able to survive that.  I received a couple of Lionel's recent steamers in the past few years with nothing of the sort happening, is it really the shipping conditions?

well if you're developing an o-scale Hulett Unloader or Blast Furnace I'll buy one at any price.  Some of us can distinguish between Major Manufacturer Top of the Line models and Take-What-You-Can-Get models.  Should a $2500+ Big Boy come from the factory with all the **** parts screwed in?  Yes.  Can a run of the mill model sell okay even if it's not prototypical?  I'd say yes.  I'll buy just about anything that's CNW or EJ&E if it they paint it as such, because I know not being a Pennsy or SF fan will limit my options.  MTH's Transfer Diesel in EJ&E colors looks nothing like the real ones they had, but I know it's the best I'll ever get in a ready-to-run model and I'll be ****ed if it isn't one of my favorite engines I own.

I know, some of y’all are gonna insist this was purposeful, and malicious on Lionel’s doing,…..let’s again use common sense, and look at the big picture,…..let’s say you work at the factory, you tighten the screw as much as you feel comfortable doing. The part is tight. The die cast is young, the die cast shrinks, it’s 88 degrees when it’s put in a box and stuffed into a shipping container that’s now probably 110 degrees….or reverse the numbers, ….I don’t care,….the common sense factors are:

pot metal          
temperature changes        
vibrations from shipping

do you have a better explanation?…..does this happen to every engine? ….no, but can it happen?…it sure can,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

You guys crack me up with your engineering studies!!….how many of you are ME’s?…

Pat

Well as a scientist, and if I see that ALL the screws holding the gearbox covers have come out, then I immediately think either: they were never screwed in well to begin with, or there is a flaw inherent in the screwholes or screws.  Looking at those pictures, 4/4 screws falling out is not an accident, it's a flaw.  And if this issue is due to the use of pot metal, well I'm glad I didn't drop thousands of dollars on an item that uses crap metal.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, sometimes they get the screws too tight.  Of course, I think this was a bigger tool that was needed to tighten this one!

I had fun getting it out as well.

Oh yeah, I about flipped my lid trying to figger out why my new TMCC gantry crane wasn't moving...turned out that the factory just tightened the screws a bit too much on the gearbox preventing any movement on the afflicted parts.

@rplst8 posted:

Think about all the products that are much cheaper that you buy everyday made in China, shipped across the globe and they work flawlessly. I've never had a TV, camera, radio, DVD player, tape deck, GPS, computer, monitor, appliance, or phone show up with loose screws. Those all get here the same way.

Think about all the hundreds of different train models made in China or elsewhere in the orient that have arrived here without the same issues.  Just got a Weaver brass loco made about 20 years ago  over there that was never opened until it was sent to me last month and it had had zero issues.

So, as Lindsey Nelson would say on the weekly Notre Dame football highlight show "following an exchange of punts, we move to action later in the quarter."

  @42trainman  has a problem with his 2023 Lionel Vision Line Bigboy and has posted his issues on another thread which included a video that had a high pitched sound that his engine was making.  Many/most OGR Forum members,  strongly suggested that he stop running the engine and send it back to Lionel for repair.  Interesting, the sound did not crop up in reverse, and only occurred when going forward, and after about 10 minutes.  So this is a great heads up for us to run new engines as soon as possible and run them for a while, to make sure everything is ok.

NEW Big Boy ON ITS WAY, PLEASE don't be broken. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

In this thread,  @ntn-pa had a different issue, with both gear box covers being separated from the engine. Fortunatley he was able to locate the screws in the box and reattached the gear covers.  He also greased the gears. Everything seems to be running now.

Both 42trainman and nta-pa are a bit miffed about their experiences, since it has happened before on other engines they have purchased.

Regarding how the screws came off,  no clear indication on how it happened, but @harmonyards may have identified the most likely cause, being temperature changes and new metal curing, combined with vibrations during shipping. I note that there are many steps in the shipping process, the last of which is having it shipped to your home, which could be thousands of miles in the back of a truck. 

@Cheap&NothingWasted posted:

Oh yeah, I about flipped my lid trying to figger out why my new TMCC gantry crane wasn't moving...turned out that the factory just tightened the screws a bit too much on the gearbox preventing any movement on the afflicted parts.

Are you refering to the TMCC Granty Crain from 2016 Lionel Volume 2 Catalog?  that seems like a long time ago to be bringing up in a thread about a 2023 engine. 

@harmonyards posted:

I know, some of y’all are gonna insist this was purposeful, and malicious on Lionel’s doing,…..let’s again use common sense, and look at the big picture,…..let’s say you work at the factory, you tighten the screw as much as you feel comfortable doing. The part is tight. The die cast is young, the die cast shrinks, it’s 88 degrees when it’s put in a box and stuffed into a shipping container that’s now probably 110 degrees….or reverse the numbers, ….I don’t care,….the common sense factors are:

pot metal          
temperature changes        
vibrations from shipping

do you have a better explanation?…..does this happen to every engine? ….no, but can it happen?…it sure can,…..

Pat

I never said purposeful or malicious, but I don't know much about pot metal.  Does it really change volume that much between 88 and 110 degrees?  If they're putting screws in right after casting how are they holding it?  I realize they might assemble parts at temps much hotter than OSHA would allow in the States, but still, someone in the QC process must realize that working on parts that are too hot will compromise quality (I would hope).

Also, the smoke unit will likely raise the temp of the metal near it 22 degrees or more, we've all felt a die-cast engine with a smoke unit after a good hour or so of running and it ain't 88 degrees.  If a 20-30 degree rise in temp will cause critical parts of an engine to fall out, is this really what we should expect from the highest end engines they make?

@DL Brunette posted:

No idea when it was catalogued or made.  Just seconding GunRunner that the issues I've had from the factory were overtightened, not loose.

Dealing with containers in my line of work, yes hardware can definitely come loose no matter how tight it is. Stuff that is hand tight one minute, can be somewhat loose in a few hours just like Pat says. We've had stranger things happen, but I'll just leave it there as I think the point is indeed stated.

@Cheap&NothingWasted posted:

I never said purposeful or malicious, but I don't know much about pot metal.  Does it really change volume that much between 88 and 110 degrees?  If they're putting screws in right after casting how are they holding it?  I realize they might assemble parts at temps much hotter than OSHA would allow in the States, but still, someone in the QC process must realize that working on parts that are too hot will compromise quality (I would hope).

Also, the smoke unit will likely raise the temp of the metal near it 22 degrees or more, we've all felt a die-cast engine with a smoke unit after a good hour or so of running and it ain't 88 degrees.  If a 20-30 degree rise in temp will cause critical parts of an engine to fall out, is this really what we should expect from the highest end engines they make?

I’ve laid out the possibilities, they all hold merit, & they’re all common sense things, …you guys have to form your own opinions……and you just got a BRASS Weaver, ….key word being BRASS,……that’s a whole other animal…..

Pat

Lionel doesnt grease them because they're afraid when they grenade in shipping, they'll get grease everywhere? Now that's funny! Id be more concerned with the loose screws scratching the heck out of the paint while bouncing around if I was lionel. I think more likely is they can't control on what goes on in that Chinese factory since they don't have a daily presence. A small amount of grease is cheap and easy to remedy, and yet they can't seem to figure it out. Like I said before, if they can't get the grease figured out over the course of years, I wouldn't hold much hope for assembly practices improving anytime soon.

I do enjoy reading the mental gymnastics some are go through to absolve the great 'L' in thr sky!

@harmonyards posted:

You guys crack me up with your engineering studies!!….how many of you are ME’s?….Let’s look at the common sense stuff, and get off the engineering nomenclature for just a second,…

Pat

I have people skills, I talk to the customers, so the Engineers don't have to! - Office Space's Tom Smykowski

I’m not excusing the mfr.’s …..no, the screws shouldn’t be in the box flying around, as an ME, I’m offering the possibilities of causes, ….as someone who works on these models nights & weekends, I see hundreds of loose screws…….perhaps the folks at the factory need to add one grunt to their tightening sequence, but as I said, good luck getting them to bust out the torque wrenches…..

Pat

@Cheap&NothingWasted posted:

well if you're developing an o-scale Hulett Unloader or Blast Furnace I'll buy one at any price.  Some of us can distinguish between Major Manufacturer Top of the Line models and Take-What-You-Can-Get models. 

That calms me down a bit and provides some motivation. I didn't think that sort of perspective existed out there. The model is really a great foundation if you have the skills to weather it.

@Cheap&NothingWasted posted:

Can a run of the mill model sell okay even if it's not prototypical? 

Now I'm offended it's actually quite prototypical...it's just a niche prototype with 4 known to exist in the 20th century haha

I hope to pick up my Big Boy soon so I can see what the damage is.

Out of curiosity, I would love to know the TRUE failure rate.  

1. Damage during shipping. (broken pieces)

2. Mechanical failure non-ship related. (like mine)

Just out of curiosity.   No guesses needed.  But it would be interesting.   The Big L would never release the truth on that, almost no company would.   I'm just glad they are honoring the warranty and paying for return shipping.  Fingers crossed it comes back in 6-8 (less is better of course) and works right.   It is a beautiful engine.  

I asked Ryan Kunkle at the LCCA Convention what the return rate for new products is, he told me about 1%.

@GAN Railroad posted:

I asked Ryan Kunkle at the LCCA Convention what the return rate for new products is, he told me about 1%.

That's the return rate, not necessarily the defect rate.  I know for sure that not only me, but a number of other folks I know, will typically fix things that aren't too serious before shipping something back.

@GAN Railroad posted:

I asked Ryan Kunkle at the LCCA Convention what the return rate for new products is, he told me about 1%.

My guess is that number is total, across all model types and product lines. I.e. including rolling stock, which is lighter, less complex, and less prone to shipping damage (if whatever we are seeing is a result of problems during shipping).

I'd love to see how the numbers breakdown on Legacy Steam and Diesels. I think that would tell a different story.

The other thing to consider is that I'd bet >50% of the collectors out there never pull the stuff they get out of the box. To each their own, but it's sort of like people that buy two sets of every thing Lego offers. One to play with and "one to keep."

@42trainman posted:

Out of curiosity, I would love to know the TRUE failure rate.  

1. Damage during shipping. (broken pieces)

2. Mechanical failure non-ship related. (like mine)

Just out of curiosity.   No guesses needed.  But it would be interesting.   The Big L would never release the truth on that, almost no company would.   I'm just glad they are honoring the warranty and paying for return shipping.  Fingers crossed it comes back in 6-8 (less is better of course) and works right.   It is a beautiful engine.  

@42trainman The best we can do now is try and track this for the Bigboy.  At this point, you are the only one with a mechanical failure.   When these threads start losing focus,  and we learn about past falures, etc, then the thread becomes a grivence thread rather than a thead that helps those that are having a problem and looking for help. Some of the problems are fixable,  and we have great posters that can provide guidence.   I think the thread has gone really off mark,  and shame on us if it gets closed.

1%, sorry I cannot buy it.   I've have a 4/7 failure/damage ratio on brand new orders.   Naw, it's higher.  But, I agree, let's keep it helpful.

Guys

All of us, know that this hobby is fun, expensive, and we know that expensive toys like those could have mechanical or electric problems.

Thank you for all your comments in this forum because  many of us  has the knowledge and patience to help and fix many problem from another users.

First of all, vibration exist and it can scratch the paint, like my new Legacy Greenbrier 612. Sand dome was unattached and the bag plastic had a perforation because vibration.  What I did, repainted by myself ($8.00)

Second, cars, truck, trains, toy trains has screws. Please, just adjust them and check them. Simple!

Third, be patient and enjoy your layout and trains.

Take a coffee or beer and have fun with your sons and grandsons.

Have a great day!

Best,

Gino

Take up crocheting.

I don't think people will be very upset if this engine cost $200, but for a top-of-the-line $2500+ engine, we expect that Lionel can do better.  Maybe they can improve the QC on all the VL engines in the future?

I agree that we have heard enough grievances and let's try to be constructive in the posting.  The Bigboy VL engines have just started shipping.  Maybe we will hear from more members as they receive and play with their engines.

@42trainman posted:

1%, sorry I cannot buy it.   I've have a 4/7 failure/damage ratio on brand new orders.   Naw, it's higher.  But, I agree, let's keep it helpful.

some people just have really bad luck...  I would stay away from 'games of chance' if I were you!