Latest J3a Hudson five chuffs.

@superwarp1 posted:

Isn’t it more than just gear ratio?  Doesn’t driver diameter size have to be part of the Equation?

No, I thought the same thing when I converted my Class A.  The original RCMC came from a Southern Crescent Pacific 20:1- which was to fast and gave it a 3 chuff per rev. (Loco was moving faster than the board to create chuff)

I based that first board off the wheel size. I ended up changing it to another board that had (16:1) ratio programed which matched same gear ratio as the Class A and fixed the problem. 

How are you finding out what the gear ratios are for all the steamers you are upgrading?

Remove the shell and turn the flywheel one revolution at a time. When the drivers have rotated one revolution, the number of turns of the flywheel will be the gear ratio.

MELGAR

Nice demonstration Gary. I think it was said elsewhere about the 5 chuffs, that Lionel was making up for all the prior Hudson's only having 2. Rick may have said that, not sure.

Either way, it is solid proof of the fubar on these. I own the ESE from the CC & the most recent Legacy version. I haven't had the ability to run either on the tracks since I only have the current O42 curves. I hope to remedy the curve issue in the coming months with a different layout that I don't have to lay on the floor for.

@MELGAR posted:

Remove the shell and turn the flywheel one revolution at a time. When the drivers have rotated one revolution, the number of turns of the flywheel will be the gear ratio.

MELGAR

again why didn't I think of that.

Makes complete sense to me.  The J3 decided it liked jazz better and is just running in time to Dave Brubeck's "Take 5".

Great, i have this engine. I will probably live with it but no more Lionel for me till they get it right.

@feet posted:

Great, i have this engine. I will probably live with it but no more Lionel for me till they get it right.

Sorry dude.

@superwarp1 posted:

How are you finding out what the gear ratios are for all the steamers you are upgrading?

Exactly mentioned above, 

I measure mine by marking with a pen across the side of the motor and flywheel. With the driving rod down (6o clock position), I rotate it and count how many times the “timing mark” passes, I stop 1/4 of the drive wheel. (Rod at the 9o clock position) Take the number of full rotations of the flywheel then multiply by 4. Getting my gear ratio. 

Maybe they have 5 chuffs because they are "SUPER HUDSONS!!!!!" Funny thing though, I didn't see an "S" across their chest.

What I can do,

Ill verify that this at “home” fix will be a RCMC from a 2018 USRA Pacific. Ill post a video next week with a board installed into one of these Hudson’s. Ill list the part numbers from each pacific loco you could order from.

If people like I could order a few boards and we do an “exchange”. Maybe thats an idea. 

@Bruk posted:

What I can do,

Ill verify that this at “home” fix will be a RCMC from a 2018 USRA Pacific. Ill post a video next week with a board installed into one of these Hudson’s. Ill list the part numbers from each pacific loco you could order from.

If people like I could order a few boards and we do an “exchange”. Maybe thats an idea. 

Exchange, that's a interesting idea.  I was going to wait for the 50% warehouse sale to purchase this board but I'll do a exchange.  Dave Olson is not responding to my emails and I don't expect to here from Lionel about a warranty return anytime soon so this may be my only fix.  Good work Bruk, I look forward to your results.  Hope they are successful.

@superwarp1 posted:

Exchange, that's a interesting idea.  I was going to wait for the 50% warehouse sale to purchase this board but I'll do a exchange.  Dave Olson is not responding to my emails and I don't expect to here from Lionel about a warranty return anytime soon so this may be my only fix.  Good work Bruk, I look forward to your results.  Hope they are successful.

I did have Dave respond to one of my emails I sent him some time ago, 3-4 months ago. I think the other wasn't his field to answer so he never got back to me. If it's technical stuff, I'd expect that he would answer.

I still wonder when we can get a hold of CS, I need to get a hold of them, haven't called because getting home to late to talk.

Okay!!! 

Here we go. This is a 2019 J3a hudson that I have installed a RCMC board from a Legacy Reading T1. Which has a 20:1 Gear ratio. (Same a USRA Pacific)  

If you are wondering why I did this read above commets or this recap

I believe that Lionel flashed the wrong gear ratio into the boards giving it 5 chuffs. The board is flashed to a 16:1 which was on the ESE hudson. Where the J3a’s have a 20:1

So the fix:

Is using a board from a Reading T1 or USRA Pacific

@Bruk posted:

Okay!!! 

Here we go. This is a 2018 J3a hudson that I have installed a RCMC board from a Legacy Reading T1. Which has a 20:1 Gear ratio. (Same a USRA Pacific)  

If you are wondering why I did this read above commets or this recap

I believe that Lionel flashed the wrong gear ratio into the boards giving it 5 chuffs. The board is flashed to a 16:1 which was on the ESE hudson. Where the J3a’s have a 20:1

So the fix:

Is using a board from a Scale T1 or USRA Pacific

I think they are 2019

@tom21pa posted:

I think they are 2019

Corrected it. 

Great work Bruk.  I’ll order that RCMC board during the 50% off sale.  Sad Lionel won’t do a simple fix on these.

@superwarp1 posted:

Great work Bruk.  I’ll order that RCMC board during the 50% off sale.  Sad Lionel won’t do a simple fix on these.

 

 

It just have to be a 1 for 1 exchange, 

Well there you have it. No response from Lionel, but Bruk diagnoses and corrects the problem at 9:00 on a Friday night.

Precisely why I didn't think twice about throwin a dollar a month into the pot.

Great job Bruk! 

Lionel should do a 1:1 exchange for you with any charge, no need to buy the board.  Surely they will recognize this as a factory error, right?

Somebody email Dave Olson about this.  He doesn’t respond to me anymore.  Maybe someone else will get lucky.

I’m keeping the extra chuffs in mine so it can drown out that awful raspy whistle Lionel uses over and over again. Sounds like it’s got the Rona.

@Bruk posted:

Okay!!! 

Here we go. This is a 2019 J3a hudson that I have installed a RCMC board from a Legacy Reading T1. Which has a 20:1 Gear ratio. (Same a USRA Pacific)  

If you are wondering why I did this read above commets or this recap

I believe that Lionel flashed the wrong gear ratio into the boards giving it 5 chuffs. The board is flashed to a 16:1 which was on the ESE hudson. Where the J3a’s have a 20:1

So the fix:

Is using a board from a Reading T1 or USRA Pacific

To my eyes it looks like that drifts quite a bit during that short length of track. The first chuff is at like 7.5 o’clock then eventually gets to 9 o’clock.

@Bruk posted:

Okay!!! 

Here we go. This is a 2019 J3a hudson that I have installed a RCMC board from a Legacy Reading T1. Which has a 20:1 Gear ratio. (Same a USRA Pacific)  

If you are wondering why I did this read above commets or this recap

I believe that Lionel flashed the wrong gear ratio into the boards giving it 5 chuffs. The board is flashed to a 16:1 which was on the ESE hudson. Where the J3a’s have a 20:1

So the fix:

Is using a board from a Reading T1 or USRA Pacific

Bruk,

I complement you on figuring out the problem with the chuffs and providing a solution for this engine.  Let me state emphatically upfront that my next comments are NOT a criticism or complaint, just stating what I see and offering that perhaps this has something to do with what appears to me to be Lionel's obvious decision to ignore the problem with the chuffing rate on this engine.

I have watched your video multiple times on my 40 inch computer monitor and the position of the crankpin on the rear driver shifts when the chuffs are heard as the engine moves forward.  Specifically noticeable is the fourth chuff of each revolution.  Counting the chuffs, the crankpin is close to 10 o'clock for chuff number four, but when chuff number sixteen is heard, the crankpin is at 12 o'clock .  Even with changing the RCMC board to one with a different gear ratio the chuffs are not a full 90 degrees apart during a driver revolution.  Just speculating and I realize it's very doubtful, but possibly Lionel figured out that even with changing the gear ratio the chuffs were still off and did not want to offer a solution that did not fully correct the problem creating even more negative sentiment towards the company.  I know, I'm dreaming here.

As for the J3A Hudson I purchased from Pat's Trains, for the time being I will leave it alone.  I may change my mind someday, but as it stands now, the boiler front situation is frustrating enough.

***Edited to Add*** I see I took much too long to type this post. lol.

Clearly Lionel could fix this problem.  There are 60 pulses for each rev of the flywheel, and since the gear ratio isn't likely to slip, the chuffs could be dead accurate at 1/4 of a driver rev.  I manage to do this with a lot fewer tach pulses with my Chuff-Generator, so I'm sure that it could be done here.

Given a 16:1 gear ratio, that's four motor revs for 1/4 of a driver rotation, or 240 tach pulses.  So with a correct count in the software, the chuffs should be able to hit within about 1/3 of a degree of driver rotation.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I’m keeping the extra chuffs in mine so it can drown out that awful raspy whistle Lionel uses over and over again. Sounds like it’s got the Rona.

According to Lionel and I know there’s a lot of angst with the EM-1 whistle.  The Hudson whistle is correct for NYC.  Hot Water might be able to confirm or deny this.   All my Lionel Hudson’s have this whistle.

@GregM posted:

Bruk,

I complement you on figuring out the problem with the chuffs and providing a solution for this engine. 

***Edited to Add*** I see I took much too long to type this post. lol.

Thank you! 

I agree that the chuff drift’s out of position but this a normal to see.

Every Legacy steam loco with this generation of electronics that I have seen, worked on , converted and owned. Does this. Its the nature of not being cam driven. Its just more noticeable in the Hudson's because of the larger drive wheels. 

Unfortunately its not perfect but its better than 5 chuffs. 

Speaking of exchange Bruk.  Mention doing a exchange, is that still on the table?  Also, the Reading T-1 RCMC board you mentioned.  Is that from 2016/17?

@superwarp1 posted:

Speaking of exchange Bruk.  Mention doing a exchange, is that still on the table?  Also, the Reading T-1 RCMC board you mentioned.  Is that from 2016/17?

Yes the Reading T1s from 2016/2017. 

Id be willing to offer an exchange. But id need at least 4 boards at once to make it worth the order. 

I can order said “correct” boards from Lionel and I can reuse the ones you’d be sending me for other projects. 

@Bruk posted:

Yes the Reading T1s from 2016/2017. 

Id be willing to offer an exchange. But id need at least 4 boards at once to make it worth the order. 

I can order said “correct” boards from Lionel and I can reuse the ones you’d be sending me for other projects. 

Well unless Lionel comes through, ad me to the list.  I'm in no rush.  Train season doesn't really start for me until the weather gets cold.  So when you or if you get three others lined up I'll pull the board and send it to you.

@GregM posted:

Bruk,

I complement you on figuring out the problem with the chuffs and providing a solution for this engine.  Let me state emphatically upfront that my next comments are NOT a criticism or complaint, just stating what I see and offering that perhaps this has something to do with what appears to me to be Lionel's obvious decision to ignore the problem with the chuffing rate on this engine.

I have watched your video multiple times on my 40 inch computer monitor and the position of the crankpin on the rear driver shifts when the chuffs are heard as the engine moves forward.  Specifically noticeable is the fourth chuff of each revolution.  Counting the chuffs, the crankpin is close to 10 o'clock for chuff number four, but when chuff number sixteen is heard, the crankpin is at 12 o'clock .  Even with changing the RCMC board to one with a different gear ratio the chuffs are not a full 90 degrees apart during a driver revolution.  Just speculating and I realize it's very doubtful, but possibly Lionel figured out that even with changing the gear ratio the chuffs were still off and did not want to offer a solution that did not fully correct the problem creating even more negative sentiment towards the company.  I know, I'm dreaming here.

As for the J3A Hudson I purchased from Pat's Trains, for the time being I will leave it alone.  I may change my mind someday, but as it stands now, the boiler front situation is frustrating enough.

 

***Edited to Add*** I see I took much too long to type this post. lol.

What’s this got to do with the price of apples?....Bruk has clearly slowed this thing down to a much more appropriate level......all Legacy engines don’t fire off at exactly noon, three, six and nine.....not sure what your complaining about now??......as stated, unless you have a cam triggered chuff with 4 lobes, it’s not always going to be exactly at the clock positions....Bruk’s clearly got this thing figured out....

Pat

They don't hit exactly Pat, but they can clearly be closer than Lionel gets them, see my previous post.  It shouldn't be obvious that they're not coming at very close to 90 degrees of driver rotation if it was done properly with the existing hardware.

Oh, I’m not excusing Lionel John,.....that’s how this whole thread started,..clearly it ain’t perfect, but Bruk’s swap seems a lot better...I don’t own one of these, ( yet) but I’d be happy with the RCMC swap and be done, albeit, Lionel should fix it.....but I doubt they will, unless there’s a plethora of complaints, and certainly they’re won’t be a field repair that Lionel would authorize ......I ain’t seeing that happen.....most of these cats wouldn’t be bothered sending the locomotive back to them ....too much of a risk.....guys like Gary already said they’d run with Bruk’s swap....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

What’s this got to do with the price of apples?....Bruk has clearly slowed this thing down to a much more appropriate level......all Legacy engines don’t fire off at exactly noon, three, six and nine.....not sure what your complaining about now??......as stated, unless you have a cam triggered chuff with 4 lobes, it’s not always going to be exactly at the clock positions....Bruk’s clearly got this thing figured out....

Pat

If you had read all of my original post you would have read that I specifically said I was not complaining about Bruk's fix. "Let me state emphatically upfront that my next comments are NOT a criticism or complaint"

I am not familiar with Legacy chuff rates and that they are all off.  However, this post by GRJ indicates that the chuffs on Legacy engines could be much better than they are.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Clearly Lionel could fix this problem.  There are 60 pulses for each rev of the flywheel, and since the gear ratio isn't likely to slip, the chuffs could be dead accurate at 1/4 of a driver rev.  I manage to do this with a lot fewer tach pulses with my Chuff-Generator, so I'm sure that it could be done here.

Given a 16:1 gear ratio, that's four motor revs for 1/4 of a driver rotation, or 240 tach pulses.  So with a correct count in the software, the chuffs should be able to hit within about 1/3 of a degree of driver rotation.

GRJ, I agree, Lionel could fix this problem, I don't see that happening.

@harmonyards posted:

....most of these cats wouldn’t be bothered sending the locomotive back to them ....too much of a risk.....

Pat

I agree with this statement.  I definitely would not risk damage to this engine sending it back for a fix for the chuff problem.  

I'm with you Pat, I was just pointing out that it could be better with minimal effort.  However, a applaud Bruk's clever solution with existing parts.

@GregM.....I read all of your reply, I never insinuated you meant anything to Bruk, what I replied to yours was this would appear to be the best it’s gonna get IMO......I totally agree with you, Lionel ain’t fixing this unless there’s a flood of complaints, and people start requesting either RA’s or forcing the retailer to eat it ( which would suck for the retailer)  ......all of my Legacy locomotives exhibit this odd phenomenon of getting out of sink, then get back in sink.....it’s just more noticeable on a tall driver loco.....yes, Lionel should fix it....but we’re shouting at the rain .....

Pat

Any chuff based off the motor encoder will always have a bit of crankpin angle drift due to mechanical slop and windup effects in the drivetrain gears and couplings. The motor could even turn half a rev through the universals before the driver begins to move. 

Yep, and with RCMC, as soon as the motor makes a certain revolution, POW...a chuff occurs...

Pat

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Any chuff based off the motor encoder will always have a bit of crankpin angle drift due to mechanical slop and windup effects in the drivetrain gears and couplings. The motor could even turn half a rev through the universals before the driver begins to move. 

 

Well, I don't know about angle drift over the long term, you can only "wind up" the drivetrain so far before it's a 1:1 correspondence from motor revs to the driver revs based on the gear ratio.  I agree that they won't be in the same orientation for every startup since they'd start counting from power on without knowing where the wheels actually are.  You'd also get some slop on reversing direction.

Once you are running in one direction and all the mechanical slop is accounted for, they could be quite accurate with the existing Legacy electronics and typical gear ratios.