Changing speed and starting/stopping in the same direction will cause the chuff angles to offset/drift as the drivetrain winds up or slackens. Every pulse counts toward the chuff but not toward the motion necessarily. Never mind fully reversing.
Also,
If the motor/wheels aren’t clocked at the perfect 4-6-9-12 position at the initial start/power up of the loco. It will start counting the encoder from that position which in turn not chuffing in those exact locations.
As mentioned before the slop in the drive also doesn’t help
True for EOB too.
Didn’t the JLC Big Boy have a chuff position switch to start the chuffing at a fixed angle? Can’t remember and mine is sold off.
@Norm Charbonneau posted:True for EOB too.
Didn’t the JLC Big Boy have a chuff position switch to start the chuffing at a fixed angle? Can’t remember and mine is sold off.
Yes-
Everything that predates RCMC has a chuff switch or CAM.
The only LEGACY board that uses a chuff sensor is BEMC. Found in only (3) O scale locos. But all American Flyer.
They don’t have a encoder, it uses back EMF. Similar to ERR Cruise Commander.
@Norm Charbonneau posted:Changing speed and starting/stopping in the same direction will cause the chuff angles to offset/drift as the drivetrain winds up or slackens. Every pulse counts toward the chuff but not toward the motion necessarily. Never mind fully reversing.
True, whenever you stop you'll have the issue. I'm not sure changing speed would be a big issue as long as you didn't unload the drivetrain. However, point taken, it's hardly synchronized, and lots of things can change it.. 
OTOH, I never worried about it as long as in steady running it was pretty close to 4-chuffs/rev.
@Bruk posted:The only LEGACY board that uses a chuff sensor is BEMC. Found in only (3) O scale locos. But all American Flyer.
They don’t have a encoder, it uses back EMF. Similar to ERR Cruise Commander.
In truth, I suspect the internal workings are exactly like the ERR Cruise Commander. Jon Z. was responsible for both of those products, and the ERR Cruise Commander works quite well, why reinvent the wheel?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:True, whenever you stop you'll have the issue. I'm not sure changing speed would be a big issue as long as you didn't unload the drivetrain. However, point taken, it's hardly synchronized, and lots of things can change it..
Exactly!!...that’s the point I was trying to make....who cares where the crank pin lands when it makes a chuff, as long as long as it’s close to 4 per one wheel revolution....unless it’s a 3 cylinder or one of the other different types of steamers.....thank you for that!!
Pat
In a perfect world, the chuffs would happen in time with the cylinders, but that ain't happening anytime soon in our little world. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:In a perfect world, the chuffs would happen in time with the cylinders, but that ain't happening anytime soon in our little world.
Can happen with a CC and 4 lobe mechanical cam....😁
Pat
Yep, magnets on the drive wheel triggering a reed switch will do it as well. 
To be clear I wasn’t hating on Bruk’s repair. Just pointing out it was still off by about 1.5 hours every, what, three or four full rotations.
That comes out to an error of about 5 to 7 degrees. If the ratio is calculated right and the tach multiplied by the ratio gives a number of pulses that is a multiple of four, it should not drift at all.
Also, it may be common for Legacy locos to drift over time, but I’ve never noticed any of my MTH locos drift. That is not me saying that MTH has a superior product, only that with the technology in the engine it should be possible to get it right.
Never thought we could get so deep into chuff synchronization to the drivers. I’ll just be happy with four as my eyes aren’t good enough to see the turning drivers half way across the layout anyway.
Like I said in the beginning of this thread I didn’t even notice the five chuffs until Dave-C pointed it out.
@superwarp1 posted:Never thought we could get so deep into chuff synchronization to the drivers.
We're into realism man, nothing is too perfect for our locomotives! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:We're into realism man, nothing is too perfect for our locomotives!
We are playing with the wrong electronics for that. 🙄
@Bruk posted:We are playing with the wrong electronics for that. 🙄
Don't you be raining on my parade Bruk, I'm allowed to dream, aren't I?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Don't you be raining on my parade Bruk, I'm allowed to dream, aren't I?
There’s enough fantasy engines floating around this forum, all dreaming is here by suspended until everybody wakes the heck up....🤣🤣🤣....
Pat
So I have a total of 3 boards wanted- I just need one more person so I can place an order for the "Fix".... email me please.
and what galls me is after pulling their chestnuts out of the fire, they have not the courtesy to thank him. maybe the dealers could do it for Lionel. well he has my thanks. and boy am i glad he is an hour away.
Sorry guys, but all this is a lot to do about nothing. After all there three rails on the track instead of two. If you want perfection, you need to be in a different gauge (HO) Maybe?
How many people even notice, it sounds and looks fine to me.
= 4 chuffs
= 
chuffs
Keep it simple, bin the computers.
Pete
Attachments
Images (2)
@NYC 428 posted:Sorry guys, but all this is a lot to do about nothing. After all there three rails on the track instead of two. If you want perfection, you need to be in a different gauge (HO) Maybe?
How many people even notice, it sounds and looks fine to me.
A lot of us won’t completely agree with this,....yes, we’re riding on three rails, but there’s a segment of this community that leans towards scale accuracy, and close to accurate performance......yes, to most, it’ll be fine forever, but to some, shelling out thousands of dollars for a model, it should work close to the real deal as possible....if you’re happy with yours, that’s cool, nobody’s gonna look cross eyed at you, but respect for those that want that extra level of accuracy.....they paid for it, and they deserve it rightfully so.....
Pat
Ah the old 3 rail track excuse lol!
In the end. This is still Lionels fault.
Had they not produced dozens of scale models with ONLY 4 chuffs over the last 15 years. No one would have noticed....LOL!
Yep....when all else fails, blame the rails....🙄
Pat
@NYC 428 posted:Sorry guys, but all this is a lot to do about nothing. After all there three rails on the track instead of two. If you want perfection, you need to be in a different gauge (HO) Maybe?
How many people even notice, it sounds and looks fine to me.
There’s always one in the crowd.
@NYC 428 posted:Sorry guys, but all this is a lot to do about nothing. After all there three rails on the track instead of two. If you want perfection, you need to be in a different gauge (HO) Maybe?
How many people even notice, it sounds and looks fine to me.
Lots of prototypes use a third rail and others are a 5ft gauge.
HO, while it has come a long way is still half the size, the sounds are not as good, and by necessity has less potential for scale accuracy. I’d argue that a 2-rail O or Proto48 model will have more detail by default.
HO steam runs on electricity. “How unrealistic is that?! The prototype uses coal!”
I never stop learning from the posters on this forum. I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I'm glad Bruk has a fix for those who want it.
I also increased my vocabulary - did anyone else have to look up the word "pedantic?" Great word!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:In a perfect world, the chuffs would happen in time with the cylinders, but that ain't happening anytime soon in our little world.
In the Lionel 2020 Big Book catalog on page 15 in reference to the Vision Line GS Series engines in the Reciprocating Cylinder Steam highlight section is the following sentence.
"A real piston inside the cylinder directs the flow of smoke through one of two cylinder valves, while a corresponding SYNCHRONIZED (emphasis mine) sound effect hisses out of the locomotive's Legacy Speaker."
So there is hope. If the cylinder steam sound effect will be synchronized then it should be only a matter of time until the wheel chuffs are too. Didn't see it anywhere but who knows, maybe that will happen with these engines.
just found out the Lionel vision line hudson 6-11209 put out in 2018 did not have this problem. so why now 2 years later?
Hopefully Lionel will be looking at some of the MTH technicians that are losing their jobs come April. A lot of train talent will be out there that could certainly help Lionel get back on track with these issues.
@romiller49 posted:Hopefully Lionel will be looking at some of the MTH technicians that are losing their jobs come April. A lot of train talent will be out there that could certainly help Lionel get back on track with these issues.
Lionel already had 3 talented technicians. They let them go a few years back.
@tangoman posted:just found out the Lionel vision line hudson 6-11209 put out in 2018 did not have this problem. so why now 2 years later?
That engine you listed is from 2010 and you need to read Bruk post why this J3 has the issue.
@romiller49 posted:Hopefully Lionel will be looking at some of the MTH technicians that are losing their jobs come April. A lot of train talent will be out there that could certainly help Lionel get back on track with these issues.
Don’t bet on it.
gary posted "That engine you listed is from 2010 and you need to read Bruk post why this J3 has the issue."
yes i understand what they did in changing gear ratios. i was hoping someone who is on the know, would tell us why they made that change.
@tangoman posted:gary posted "That engine you listed is from 2010 and you need to read Bruk post why this J3 has the issue."
yes i understand what they did in changing gear ratios. i was hoping someone who is on the know, would tell us why they made that change.
I would think that only the folks within the Engineering Dept. at Lionel would have THAT answer.
The 700E is a J1 and the new Hudson is a J3. They share few if any parts and never have throughout their production cycles. The question is why isn't the new unstreamlined J3a not the same as the J3a Empire State Express. AFAIK there are no chuff issues with the ESE engine.
Pete
@Norton posted:The 700E is a J1 and the new Hudson is a J3. They share few if any parts and never have throughout their production cycles. The question is why isn't the new unstreamlined J3a not the same as the J3a Empire State Express. AFAIK there are no chuff issues with the ESE engine.
Pete
The ESE doesn’t have the same frame. You would think it would but it doesn’t. ESE has 16:1 gearing. Based in the design of the shells boiler shells it wouldn't work or look right.
I’m thinking thats how the mix up happened programmers saw it as “hudson” slapped it in the newer hudson model that had 20:1. Bam 5 chuffs
Guess I will always be out of step with most others on this forum as the Legacy J3A - a locomotive I have been waiting for its return since 2001 is great in my opinion . Love the whistle, detail, and overall performance and have stop running other engines. Guess I will eventually wear it out.
Update, I did hear from Lionel and they will fix this under warranty but that’s about to expire if not already. I went with option B and did a RCMC swap with Bruk. Five chuffs no more.
thanks again to Bruk for the exchange program.
Thats a beauty Gary. Its been a long road to get to this but it looks now like it was worth it. 
Pete
Glad its working good for you Gary!
Also just so everyone knows and I take no offense from Gary’s video.
My name is pronounced like “truck” but with a “B” but as you can see it is spelled without a “C” .
Just so everyone knows! I’m used to it haha.
