VL Hudson and Layout Change

Thanks.  We are losing members all the time.  We lost another one on Friday.  

Nick, you did a fantastic job. Too bad your efforts aren't understood, and were summarily dismissed by Mr. Poppet.

The Lionel misses on several more details, including the missing boiler jacket clamps (EDIT: Whoops. I see you got those. Sorry), wrong headlight, missing whistle shield, missing steam dome flange (making the K-Line dome cover look like it's suposed to--as a separate piece that can be removed from a real Hudson--not just a blob of metal like the Lionel); missing hand holds on the sand dome lids; missing boiler washout plugs, missing steam chest rivet deails, and several others I can't remember now.

I have no doubt Mr. Poppet knows a lot about Lionel Hudsons, and he certainly never tires of reminding us just how large his collection is. But it's pretty clear he doesn't understand (or care about) actual steam locomotive details that a lot of us do enjoy. We end up talking at cross-purposes: He knows about Lionel Hudsons, but when you start talking specific details, he really can't address those.

(The fact that he thinks Lakawanna Hudsons are identical to the NYC J3A shows just how imprecise his eye for detail is).

It's clear the Lionel Vision Line Hudson is the most feature-packed Hudson Lionel has ever made, and I'm truly happy that people are enjoying it. If you're looking for a model that has the most prototypical detail, however, it's just not the one.

That's OK. But I'd certainly be happy to post a photo of Lackawanna Hudson for you and point out the differerences--you know, as a favor. Just because a locomotive is built in the same plant at the same time doesn't mean they are the same.

If they're not "replicas," you shouldn't classify them as J3As. That might be confusing to a lot of people.

Interesting stats: The DL&W Hudsons had 175,000 more pounds on their drivers than the J3A (!), resulting in a tractive effort that was 11,000 pounds greater than the J3A.

The engines differed in all known specifications, from driver diameter to grate area to cylinder bore/stroke.

It was a different locomotive designed for different use.

Exactly! Yogi Berra was right. This is incredible nonsense especially when it devolves into personal name calling. Thank you, God, for making me a simple man.

Bob Di Stefano

Because, Poppet Valve, you are more than obnoxious - you are truly offensive here.  

I'm not an NYC fan and don't know much about their Hudsons, but I do have a question about all ot the detailing listed:  is it accurate, or is it bling?  Having details doesn't make a model accurate:  having the right ones does.  Did the real J engines have those appliances in those places?

Yes, palallin, the K-Line Hudson has the details where they're supposed to be. That's why it's such a cool model to look at.

As pointed out, the K-Line version isn't perfect--it doesn't have the lubricator linkage the Lionel does, or the valve crossheads (those are accurate and very cool details only Lionel has featured to date). And, of course, it has the big tender cable, and certainly doesn't run as nice. But as far as the other details, they are not just there for the sake of adding pieces. They really got it right with the detailing.

Lionel got most of the details correct, too (except for the headlight and compressor shields). Mostly, though, the engine lacks the details and "crispness" of the K-Line model.

I'd never noticed this before you mentioned it--and now it sticks out like a sore thumb every time I see it!

Can someone post a list of all "Scale" NYC Hudsons produced, no matter what manufacturer made them?

-Lionel has made several obviously. Going back to the 90s, they are the two unshrouded J3a's (one in a set), The Dreyfuss, The Empire State Express, The Smithsonian Dreyfusses, The Commodore Vanderbilt, and the 1990 1-700E.

-MTH has made two renditions of 5344, one in 1996 (?) and 2010 (?). Not definite on years but around there. The one in 2010 features a PT tender and scullin drivers.

-K-Line has the one model (two different cab #s). Best rendition of 5344 in O-Gauge so far.

-Williams has made a brass one. If there are more I do not know of them.

-3rd Rail has made one of the best renditions of a J3a in O-Gauge, maybe only matched by the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfusses.

-If there are more I do not know of them.

My hope is that Lionel will take the K-Line tooling and update it with Legacy. They already did it with the Berkshires. Bring on the Hudson!

Yes!  K-Line steamer castings were fantastic: very crisp with excellent detail on the small stuff.  At one time I had four different locos from the pre-Lionel K-line period, including a nice looking Hudson.   None was a top notch runner like the VL Hudson, the Lionel conv. Atlantic, or the WBB ten-wheeler, but they all looked great.  

    Still, I was never that impressed with them as runners , which is a very important consideration with me.  All four of mine were not good, smooth, slow speed runners. They weren't bad, just not nearly as good as the best modern locos. And of course in terms of other features they were the equal of their contemporaries, but are just as obsolete today as Lionel and etc. are from that era.  

    I only have one K-Line steamer left - the tank engine.  I have only limited shelf display space, so when I get newer, more modern toy loco of a particular model, be it a Hudson or a Pacific, I take the older loco off the shelf and put the newer in its place.  The older goes to the spare parts/project "graveyard table" in my workshop.  I will similarly retire the tank engine when Lionel or MTH brings out a scale model with modern features. 

As lengthy and informative as this thread is, it is perilously close to deletion.  I, for one, am not going to spend the time cleaning it up, and I imagine that Rich would be similarly inclined to send it into the ether.

If you want to retain the information presented thus far, I would recommend copying the thread now and storing it on your own computer. At the rate things are going, it's lifespan here is limited.

Good idea, probably.

Well, he didn't write that. He wrote, "Hudsons most similar in appearance to New York Central's were the five built for the DL&W (Lackawanna). And well they should, as they were built by American Locomotive Co. at the same time as the J3's were under construction."

Thoroughbreds, page 314.

I agree with Allan Miller. As the "thread starter," I appreciate all those who have responded and gave me advice regarding the VL Hudson. The rest was informative, but...

Thanks to all

Bruce

You know I went on this forum for one thing and for one thing only and that is too share in this hobby. But people I am 17 years old and I am mature enough to know not to start this crap on a thread like this. You wonder why we are loosing the young generation in the hobby???!!! I was extremely excited to hear that the VL Hudson runs on O-36 now in a couple days I come back and the thread is tainted with verbal harrassment from some guy behind a computer.

I wonder what he would say when people were face to face? Either way, thanks everyone for the good info! Especially Steve, smd4, for his wonderful insight on the Hudsons and his corrections to multiple misnomers on this thread.

Thanks everybody,

Nice fish you have.  

Where was the picture taken?

You are very wise for your age.

Bruce,

I forgot to mention, in my last post, that I did pull scale 18" Lionel heavyweights around the 0-42 track with the VL Hudson. (If you use these passenger cars, don't use the vestibules and you won't have a problem on the 0-42 curves.) Mostly though it was relegated to freight duty on the 0-31 track because I was using my Milwaukee Road S-3 on the 0-42 loop with the scale heavyweights.

Yea that's right, the S-3 Northern which is rated for 0-54 minimum radius was running on 0-42 without a hitch. Don't always go by what the box says when it comes to minimum radius. Do a little experimentation, and you may be surprised.

Mike R

Ps... Please post some photo's and video's of your layout (and Hudson) when you get your VL Hudson. 

Mike, I'm 20 if you didn't know. It is indeed unfortunate that one person has the power to uproot two whole pages of great info with nothing more than a bad attitude.  I probably should have listened to John's advise and avoided him, but at the same time feel the strong need to steer people in the right direction when it comes to these models, much like Steve. There are just so many misconceptions about these models, and I hope my input has been helpful and appreciated here 

Hi Mike R:

I was actually thinking about pulling heavyweights...

And I would love to experiment, but I figured that this one (VL Hudson & O-36) would be too expensive and heart-wrenching if it failed. But, because of all you great folks out there on the "ether," I now know it can be done. The Hudson arrives next week.

Mike and Nick: glad my son will have some kindred spirits when he has enough time for the hobby after grad school; he really loves running my trains.

And I will start a new thread with photos. Maybe my ATSF Northern will come in and I can do Mike R's experiment with a Northern and O-36...

Bruce

There is a nice set of NYC heavyweight cars on pages 88-89 of the 2012 Catalog.  No doubt these are just NYC roadname versions of the standard Lionel hvywght cars but I've been thinking of getting the full seven-car set to create a 20th Century Limited behind my VL Hudson, and eventually behind the Vision Dreyfus Hudson I hope to buy (Lionel, are you listening?).  

Ironic that I don't even like Hudsons that much, particularly the NYC Js. It takes something like the VL features to get me to like and run this Hudson a lot: I much prefer Northerns, particularly BIG Northern's.  If Lionel is listening, a VL ATSF 2926 please - I will buy that and the Dreyfus, I promise! 

Anyway, the 20th Century limited is one of four "named trains" I really want to model: it would give the Hudson something to do: I have no rolling stock or passenger cars from east of the Mississippi, and now that my Southern Crescent is repainted to UP roadname, only two locos from east of the Mississippi - the VL Hudson and my MTH European French 241.A

The other trains I want to model are the Super Chief, the Orient Express, and the Flying Scotsman.  I have two versions of the former, neither quite satsifactory, and am still thinking about the other two.

Lee, you read my mind. Exactly what I am contemplating for my Hudson.

Bruce

Thanks for the tip Eric 

I also see the OGR team took the time to save the thread. My many thanks to them for allowing the good info to stay and cleaning up the mess. I have gone back and removed my responses to the combative poster so the comparison is all that remains. Thank you again! 

I think you all should go back and remove your viscous  posts and apologize to Poppet Valve for your name calling.  I removed my posts not Rich or Allan. Not because my posts are wrong! Because great information is falling on deaf ears!

Really? I mean, really??

Thanks for the tip Eric

You're very welcome.

I keep a long (by now) file in MS Word on my desktop.  Anytime a good tidbit comes up (generally several times a day) or particularly a website link, I just copy and paste it to my file.  I can use the word search in it later to find things quickly.  It is a simple but effective way to save good stuff. 

It is not a wise idea to download or save anything from the internet. You never know if a virus is involved, or when it will open and attack your devices.

Lee's not "downloading" anything--he's copying and pasting text, which is perfectly safe.

Hello George. Congratulations on your recent VL Hudson purchase. You are indeed fortunate to be in the position to own BOTH of these premium models of NYC 2354.

We are offering our K-Line model for sale if still interested.

Please contact me off-line

Sam

Really, I mean, really? 

Hi Lee,

The good old Susquehanna River is where I caught that fish and it was taken while on the boat. Its a small smallmouth but the very first one I ever caught. It got me hooked into bass fishing. 

Thanks for the kind words. I try to live by example. 

Definitely has been Nick! Thanks to you too!

Nick (PC9850), Thanks for your breakdown, I have often wondered what the differences are since I own 3 K-Line Hudsons and can in no way afford a VL Hudson (Especially in 1 road number).

I have enjoyed reading this thread, and I am 36 years old and still developing my collection.  I do admit that I have had the hammer dropped on me for some of the comments that I have made in the past, but The Forum is still a good resource for information, like what you have provided on the K-Line versus Lionel Hudsons.

As an aside, one of my favorite topics to read is the S-class Niagara versus the N&W J-class.

I have learned, when it comes to toys, models, prototype and theoretical... It's to each their own.

Thanks,

Mario

A friend of mine who's also on here recently bought one. He was raving about how he wanted the VL Hudson, and how excited he was that he bought one.

To me, that's part of the fun of the hobby. Seeing how excited others get when they get something they've really wanted. I was the same way when I was able to finally get a tinplate B&O tank car, thanks to a tip on here.

I don't believe any Hudsons were saved, were they? Such a shame. It's a magnificent locomotive.

I've read that Lionel used the face of the Hudson as the inspiration for many of their tinplate steamers.

The thing about feeding trolls is that it just encourages them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0

Truer words have never been spoken....

Hi George,

Are you looking for a K-Line model?  We have No 5344 available

Please contact me through my email in profile.

Thanks,

Sam

If there's a troll on here, someone must've used "Troll Spray".

It would have been nice if a streamlined Hudson had been saved, too. I've seen videos of them... they are true thoroughbreds. I enjoy watching models of them on YouTube.