Revisiting DCS - PE and Hogwarst - Wait for MTH, or buy used TMCC/Legacy setup

Good questions. I have found it to be more economical to go the TMCC route. TMCC controller, base, and a Power master used will run around $220 or so used. ElectricRR.com sells the DC controller boards for about $70 each so for 3 engines you are at $200. Your conventional steamers can use the air whistle built in to save a dollar. so you would be into everything for about $420 or so assuming you do all the conversions on the engines yourself. I have already converted some BEEPs to TMCC with electrocouplers and my list this year is to do my PE Berk, Hogwarts, and wifes' new Hershey 0-8-0. Good luck!

While I like some of the features of the PS/2 conversions, you do have more flexibility for command conversions with the ERR TMCC stuff.  You can get the small Mini Commander 2 board for $60 to convert very small stuff, I have one in a Lionel Speeder, an inspection truck, and my command Oscar Mayer Wienermobile conversion.  For PS/2, you basically have one package, and it's much too large for small motorized stuff.

I would recommend TMCC.

 

George

TMCC

I  recommend TMCC relatively easy conversion, and I agree with John they do make smaller board.

TMCC, ERR products are freely available.

MTH products are always hard to get, and their support is not great.

ERR is owned by Lionel.

Thanks guys, I will put a want to buy post in after Christmas is paid off. If the right set comes through, I will get it.

I'm guessing for the ERR stuff, you may have trouble finding it here, though they occasionally come up.  Most of the time, I just buy them, Boxcar Bill has discount prices on the ERR stuff, so he's a good source.

Hi Marty,

 

I would suggest a different third option.  I know of people who have converted PE and Hogwarts engines to DCS using the current PS2 conversion kits.  For what you would spend on TMCC hardware for these few engines you could not only buy the PS2 conversion kits but you could have them installed in the PE and Hogwarts.

 

The Beeps are tougher to convert because of their size.  MTH is coming out with a suitable PS3 board for these engines, but I have know idea when they will be available.  However, there may be a better option for conventional control through DCS in the near (before next Christmas) future.

I'd sure like to see how you figure that!  He's going to spend a minimum of $180 for the PS/2 kit for each locomotive, that doesn't include the cost if you have someone else install it.  As far as a compact PS/3 board, I'll believe it when I see it.  I'm also interested in how much it might cost...

 

You have the option of upgrading to TMCC for as little as $60 if you forgo sound, and you can connect an existing whistle or horn to any of the ERR Commander products for the price of some diodes and a $3 relay.

 

I'm not saying which is the "more desirable" option, but I sure don't know how you come up with this being the cheapest option unless you're using the New Math.

Hi John,

 

Eastside Trains in Kirkland, WA, charges $330 for PS2 conversions - INSTALLED.  That would be $660 for both the PE and Hogwarts engines.  If Marty is up for doing the installation himself he can get 1 MTH club membership and 2 PS upgrade kits for $325.  That doesn't do anything about his Beeps, but it does give him better quality conversions than the basic ERR hardware for his two steamers.  Not only do you get the full compliment of sound, smoke, and lights you also get superior speed control.

 

Going the ERR/TMCC route will cost a bit more than you guys want to admit.  Right now you can't get a new TMCC set.  You have to go Legacy at $300.  Then you add the ERR hardware.  You could get away with using the Mini Commander 2 in the Beeps at $60 each, but PE and Hogwarts need at least the AC/DC Commander at $70 each.  However, the speed control on both leave a LOT to be desired.  Marty might as well stick with conventional in that case.  To get anyting worth while you'd need to pop for the Cruise Commander at $85-120 depending on the engine.  The PE and Hogwarts would both need the $120 kits.  Even for just the two steamers you're spending $540 in hardware.  Convert a couple beeps for $60 each and you've spent $680, or the cost of two PS2 conversions through Eastside Trains.

 

No "new" math, just some good old common sense that you get what you pay for.  A more expensive engine conversion that results in a better running engine can be a better deal.

I'm still looking around for TMCC conversion kits (been on the lookout at the past six York shows with no results), but finally had one of my questions answered by a recent entry on DCS operation at ElectricRR's website:

"The Mini Commander series of products may be operated with the DCS remote system available from MTH electric Trains.  The "class", or address type, must be set to ENG, with the ID number between 1 and 99.  Furthermore, at this time the configuration of the Mini Commander must be done with the TMCC Cab-1 Remote."

(emphasis mine)
Well, that's another reason to look forward to the Cab-1 work-alike that Lionel is supposedly working on.

 

(Edit: I should mention that I have a Command Base hooked to DCS, but no Cab-1 as of yet)

---PCJ

We just haven't addressed the issue of the stuff that the PS/2 kits don't fit into.   Also, the smoke you get is only what you already have unless you also buy and retrofit the MTH smoke unit, it doesn't come in the kits.

 

You can also start up with TMCC buying a CAB1/Command base, they're still pretty readily available for less than half what the Legacy costs.  Also, if you have the TMCC, you have the option of running both on your layout.  Finally, there is the CAB1L that Lionel is going to deliver soon, that will be cheaper than Legacy, though nobody really knows what the price will be.

 

I don't argue that the PS/2 conversion is a nice running unit, that's why there are a couple already installed, and two more waiting on my shelf for installation!

 

The speed control of the basic TMCC stuff isn't like the PS/2 or Cruise Commander upgrades, that is certainly true.  OTOH, for folks used to running conventional, it may not be a significant issue.  I know I put cruise control in anything that it'll fit in, because I think it's super neat!  However, I know other people that prefer to jockey the throttle to run conventional or TMCC without cruise control.

 

I think it's smart to do the research, and have discussions like this, that way you end up with the best solution for your specific situation.  I can't tell others how to go, because each person has unique requirements and desires.

 

Marty,  I read your question and of course this is like asking what color do you like.  If Command Control is all your after, ERR is the way to go.  Comparing PS-2 to a basic Command board is apples to oranges though.

 

How come I can't install a legacy system as simply as a Williams reverse unit?

 

PS-2 should be compared against TMCC with Odyssey and RailSounds or Legacy.

 

Each have there artributes and issues.  Speed control, syncronized smoke, user installed soundfiles, in a single board package are the PS-2 attributes.

 

I believe even Lionel is going towards single purpose Legacy boards for some of there newer products.  If you wanted to add TMCC and RS and Speed control to your engines, I do think you will find the packages is just as large or larger, and  more costly, but if you don't need all that stuff an ERR board is the way to go.

 

I think many wind up using both systems.  DCS linked with TMCC or Legacy and operate engines that are appropriately modified to their specific needs.   If you had a really nice scale engine, would you really just want to put a TMCC board in it with an air whistle?  G

 

 

Interesting all around. As with many train topics, there are lots of ways to get there. So, this conversation is great. No need to be "right", we just need to be open to the different ideas.

Specific to what I'd like, is PS2 like speed control in everything I run. While I have plenty of time, for now, I will make engine, by engine, Christmas, by Christmas choices.

Right now today, if a DCS option was available for PE and Hogwarts, I'd do that, unless TMCC with cruise control will fit better. Smoke isn't a need. There isn't much tolerance for it, in my house. I'd even remove the Lionel smoke units, if it helped with space. The hope that MTH would release boards to control small stuff, like BEEPS is awesome and I could run them conventional, for a few Christmases, or until I get a train room (2016), if they were imminent.

On the flip side, it looks like tripling the cost of small locos, to control them <100 for BEEP expected <200 for PS3 ugrade. ERR starts to look more inviting as RMT seems to have the US Navy stuff (I don't like the look of the $500 Lionel set, or it's old stuff). When I start to go beyond my immediate (3yr) plan, I realize the technology will change advance, before I get there so....

 

Extending the conversation.

 

I am going to try to learn and do any conversions myself. I enjoy it and I'm not bad at it.

 

Does anyone have examples of ERR cruise control in PE and HE locos, that they would be willing to open and describe briefly? It's a huge request, but is key to the conversation, for anyone making these decisions.

The same for PS2, in those locos? the flywheels don't look tach tape friendly!

I don't think I see myself drilling out spots in the loco to add lights that aren't there now. I've looked at the tether connection points behind the cabs. I think I could handle those.  I'd add lights to the tender, provided I don't need more than some black touchup on the PE tender.

I am close to releasing a Hogwarts tender, fully diecast metal, with various options for ERR commander boards, sound, including British whistle, electro coupler, or, if you don't want command, and you just want a solid diecast tender with electronic British whistle, this will also be available.

I just received yesterday, a sample from the factory, and will wire it up this coming week. I will be announcing all of this as soon as I can get pics up. They will be available from me, The O gauge Guy, and John Hoover of Trains Hoover in Florida.

Dave Allen

I found that in small steamers that the tach encoder mounting can be an issue.  First one I decided to do was the MTH General with PS/1.  As luck would have it, there was no way to fit the encoder with their mounting bracket, the shell hit it.  I ended up making my own spacer and bonding it to the motor out of the way of the shell.  Next, even though it was an MTH locomotive with PS/1, clearly the PS/2 kit wasn't designed with this one in mind!  The tether connector didn't fit in the space that the PS/1 tether did in the locomotive.  I had to do surgery on the locomotive and the tether mounting board to get that to fit.

 

I'm eager to see if MTH releases a PS/3 set that suitable for really small stuff, that would be very cool!  While ERR has the small command board, they don't have any sound solution for small units, so that would be a huge plus.

 

I run both Legacy and DCS, so either guy that solves the problem gets my money.

Hmmmm, sounds irresistible. I think I spent time watching the movies and then youtube, of the express. Is that tender lit? I don't think the movie original, or it's prototype were.

At the DCS user Group at York in October, Andy Edleman announced that a Proto 3 upgrade kit would not be available for another year. Here is one of my notes from that meeting that I prepared for our local club newsletter:

 

• Proto3 upgrade kits. These will not be available for at least another year but will not contain the wireless drawbar, only the cable tether but it will be modified to be more direct, not the anaconda cable of the past. The reason for this is that the wireless tether has required changes in steamer castings and the tether would not fit in older engines without milling out the casting. Bluetooth tethers are not economically feasible.
  
  Mike

Here's one of PS2 installed I couldn't find any with TMCC. 

I'm in the same boat in a way, Here's a question, I have Lionel P.E Berk with whistle steam and rail sounds. The chuff works independently of the tender chuffs when you push it. I really like the sounds and whistle smoke so this is my question. I was thinking of installing a cruise board and tmcc DC commander in the baggage car and attach the board to the baggage car pick ups and just run a couple wires into the engine for motor control. However can I access whistle steam, i'm guessing because the whistle steam is controlled by a circuit board which is activated by the whistle button. What about the belI? I was thinking of PS2 but the tach reader and big tether would be challenging compared to a few wire for the motor. 

Thanks, Liam

You can rig something for the whistle, but the bell is more problematic.  The "cruise board" and the "DC Commander" are really one unit, the ERR Cruise Commander.

 

You might be able to transplant the sound chip from the conventional RS board to the ERR RailSounds Commander, that would be a question for ERR.  If so, you keep your sounds.  As far as the whistle steam, there is a logic signal output from the Cruise Commander that is activated whenever you blow the whistle, so that could be rigged to trigger the whistle steam.

So I only need a cruise commander? Does this come with the wires and white connection plugs? 

You can download the installation manual from the Electric RailRoad site.  It doesn't come with any white plugs.  I have an unopened one in my hand, it comes with the Cruise Commander driver, R2LC, the program switch with wires, and a couple of motor wires and heat-shrink and cable ties.

 

What white plugs are you looking for?

 

If you're talking about the sound, that would be the RailSounds Commander, a separate product.

I'd dump both and go with DCC

Todd,

If Dave happens to see this or does anyone know of a MTH certified tech who might be willing to do the Harry Potter conversion to PS2?

The guy you want is Marty Fitzhenry. Simply the best for PS2 conversions.

Dave, how's this going?

All things considered, I have decided on DCS upgrades. I want the slow speed control. I love running at 4 to 10smph, where the trains are quiet enough for conversation. I am specifically looking at the Hogwarts Express. If it works out, the Polar Express is next, but that has RC now, so while I'd prefer the control, it is secondary.

1) Is there a straight  tether available from MTH, instead of a 90deg angle on the tethers I have on my other engines. Someone mentioned MTH would be doing them for PS3 upgrades, but.... If not, I will install the board on the loco upside down, so the curve is up and doesn't interfere with the drawbar. Yes PN BC-2000000

2) I will email Dave Allen the o gauge guy, but did he ever do his cast Hogwarts tenders? Will they give a better shot at installing the powered rear coupler? Dave, if you notice this, might they better accommodate the speaker and be a better heat sink? How much are they?  Still in the works

3)Anyone have a smaller 4ohm speaker they like?

4) I'm not going to put in smoke.

5) Lighting - I'd like a cab interior and probably firebox lighting. Do they come with the upgrade. I saw the loco tether in the kit instructions., but only the headlight is mentioned.

6)Dave Hikel - you mentioned better conventional via DCS options were coming. Was that simply your pending computer control, are are you working on a board that you can share some details on?

 

 

Hi Marty,

the diecast tenders have been made, they include mounting for a speaker and holes for mounting TMCC boards. The problem is they have not been painted and the coupling has not been resolved. Being a tiny manufacturer in China, it has been shelved so more pressing projects can be released. I will persue it, however, I think it's a worthwhile project.

Dave,
Thanks for keeping up on this. I will wait until later in the year to start. Keep us posted please. Any chance you have pictures you could share? Dcs folks will need to route coupler control and a tether, and drill ps2 mount holes. A bcr will negate the need for a charge port. Anything I'm missing?

There are straight tethers available, I have used them on several steamer conversions.  I like the look better than the loop, don't know how they'll last long term, but we'll see.

 

John, next time you look, can you post straight tether PN? I like the flicker idea, for dollar store votive candle idea, for the firebox. 

BC-0000217 is the generic External harness what comes with straight on one end and angled on other.  The only issue is that some times when manufactured there is no rubber cover on the straight end.

 

The other issue will be you will have to splice any harness into the existing tender harness if you are using an upgrade kit.  May have issues on tight curves with a straight plug unless you allow float.  As the draw bar bends so will the straight harness.  The angled loop was your shock absorber/give.  G

The BC-2000000 might be a better bet, 10 pin flat PS/2 Universal.  You're sure that you'll get one with the rubber cover on the straight section.

 

The one issue I foresee is what George mentions, I don't know about the longevity of the cable at the connector.  Of course, I just replaced a 90 degree one, and I have another one here on the bench with the same issue, so they don't exactly last forever either.

 

I don't think it is a broken wire in the cable as much as pulling the connector out of the engine as the engine turns in tight turns if the cable doesn't have some ability to move.  The tighter the distance between the tender and engine the more prone to cock the connector.  G

It helps with the tether if you allow the straight wire to slide inside the tender so it can adjust to curves.  I don't know that it's as robust as the 90 degree one, but I don't have any issue with it pulling out of the locomotive.