Wanted - Prototype photos of PRR LCL SERVICE boxcar

pro hobby,
Here is the man responsible for that proposed color paint scheme and markings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Loewy
There were three proposed P.RR. L.C.L. Service box cars:
X29B 40ft., as you posted a photo. of,
X41B 50ft. and
X40B 60ft.
There is more information available regarding these cars, but I am unable to obtain it.
I do not have any photos., nor do I know, if the actual cars were made up for the 1939/40 N.Y.S. Worlds Fair, as some of the P.RR. rolling stock equipment were featured, there, or at any other time, thereafter.
BUT, Robert Loewy's designs were utilized for P.RR's. L.C.L. 'Merchandise Service' Phases I color paint scheme and markings, applied to the following cars:
X29B 40ft.,
X41B 50ft and
X40B 60ft.
Ralph

As far as I can ascertain, that LCL paint scheme was never used on any PRR equipment. I have one of the custom Weaver cars in that scheme and have spent many hours researching if it was ever put on a car and have come up with nothing.

I know the 'Merchandise Service' paint schemes were utilized for LCL service.

if there are Loewy design schemes, I'd sure like to know where they are archived.

pro hobby,

I have to agree with John, as I too have not been able to find actual/prototype photos., or any documentation of P.RR's. box cars dressed up in Robert Loewy's 'Proposed' 'Project #570' 'ORIGINAL' designed color paint scheme of Jun. 1947 X40B 60', same as your 40' box car and scheme of Aug. 1947 X41B 50,' 'L.C.L. Service' box cars.

Though, Loewy's design proposals were influential in the color paint schemes and markings of P.RR's. later 'L.C.L. Merchandise Service,' Phases I, II & III, schemes, on their box cars.

I have color, either photos., or beautiful renditions, of the 50' and 60' box cars in Loewy's 'Proposed' 'ORIGINAL' 'L.C.L. Service' 'Project #570,' schemes, but I need the assistance of my computer expert son to scan and transfer the pictures and info.

Ralph

Here are the proposed Loewy's 570 project.

All the best.

Ralph

Ralph, that's great! Where is that design sketch from? It appears you have settled this long time question of whether that paint scheme was ever a reality... at least on paper.

Thank you John,

For the life of me I can't remember where I got this info. from???!!!!
I must have saved it somewhere, as I try to do.
My son who helped tranx this message, asked the same question.

If, you will notice at the very bottom, and in a 'Keystone,' are the numbers '48.'

This, probably came from literature dealing with the P.RR.

I am sorry, for some reason the reproduction, presentation, is not as clear and bright,

making it difficult to clearly see if they are photos., of the box cars, or artistically rendered, back when and before 'Computer Generation.'

BUT still, I can not find any other pictures, or documentation, if these cars were actually dressed, as such.

Loewy was responsible for many designs dealing with the P.RR., alone, as with many other subjects and corporations!

Ralph

I would find it hard to believe that if a prototype car was so uniquely painted would've escaped ALL of the photographers that photographed the Pennsy.

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

You are correct, especially the multi colors and intricate markings, similar to P.RR's. L.C.L. 'Merchandise Service' PHASE I, 40', 50' & 60' box cars.

This color paint scheme is a photographer's dream, much less one of P.RR's. right to boast and brag, especially that Robert Loewy is involved and he would want to make it known, as his designs and take credit, also.

Ralph

At my LHS, one of the workers told me to look at the new arrivals of MTH P.RR. items. When, I looked at this MTH, Premier, P.RR. 'L.C.L. Service' box car, of Robert Loewy's Proposed, Project #570 of Jun. 1947, in its' box, I thought it was a 'Dream/Fantasy of MTH, until I went home and researched it.

Then, I went back and bought one.

At the time, I realized that this car might become an extinct item, as I was told, by the same worker, that these cars were flying off of the shelves.

Yes, I believe, no real freight car was actually painted up as such, but the scale model, of a proposed concept, is proof enough to justify the making of such a scale model.

Ralph

Why not ask the question over here: PRR-FAX List - Yahoo Groups ?

Bill

Thank you Bill,

I'll give it a try, I can't remember where I got the aforementioned info. from and all other on-line attempts have yielded negative results.

AND, by the way, contacting MTH will only yield that they get their info. out of a book, but they will not tell you which book!

Ralph

pro hobby,

Look at the letters and numbers to the left of the door (The Built Date), it shows P57 12-48.

The P57, might be the project #570 and the built date of '48, which is after the proposal date of '47.
Ralph

Ralph wrote:

Robert Loewy's designs were utilized for P.RR's. L.C.L. 'Merchandise Service' Phases I color paint scheme and markings, applied to the following cars:
X29B 40ft.,
X41B 50ft and
X40B 60ft.

Did these cars ever interchange, or only run on the Pennsy from freight terminal to freight terminal?

Regards,
GNNPNUT

Did these cars ever interchange, or only run on the Pennsy from freight terminal to freight terminal?

The cars were captive on the PRR during the LCL era (very late 1940's through very late 1950's).  After that, they were released into general service until they eventually got repainted during shopping.  In the early to mid-60's (at least), you would see Merchandise Service cars in interchange service (in ever more worn and weathered condition).

Thank you Bob,

I did not know that these 'M.S.' cars were restricted to P.RR. trackage, at first and I don't know if they were run as a block consist, or not.

I do know that these 'M.S.' cars were NOT run head end on passenger trains, but were ran in freight service.

Ralph

Thanks Bob.  Looks like I need to stick with tuscan red Pennsy boxes then.    I saw that 60 foot box car, and it looked like a unique car that would bust up the usual 40 foots typical of my chosen era. 

Regards,

Jerry

Here's a B&W photo. of P.RR's. 60 foot L.C.L. 'Merchandise Service' X40B Phase I scheme, box car:

http://www.billspennsyphotos.c...to?photoid=121415258

Ralph

Here's the 50ft., X41B Phase I scheme, P.RR. L.C.L. 'M.S.' box car:

http://www.billspennsyphotos.c...to?photoid=121415261

                            AND

The 40ft., X29B, Phase I scheme, all the same info., as aforementioned:

http://www.billspennsyphotos.c...to?photoid=121415257

These three lengths, of "Phase I Scheme,' of 'Merchandise Service' box cars, as well as the Phases II & III schemes definitely are different than the Loewy proposed designs of P.RR's original 'L.C.L. Service' schemes, as I previously posted photos. of, but still were inspired by Loewy's proposed designs!

Ralph

Here are models of an X40B on the left and an X29 on the right, both in 'Merchandise Service' schemes.  The wide stripe is silver on the X40B and white on the X29.

The X29 is from Atlas while I found the X40B at a 2-rail scale show.  Someone did a nice job of building it from a kit.  I added Atlas 3-rail trucks but haven't gotten around to weathering it yet.

I have two of MTH's LCL Service boxcars and they look good, but I'm a little disappointed they are based on a drawing and that no real cars were ever painted this way.  Here is a picture of MTH's interpretation of the X29B and X40B Merchandise Service boxcars.

Edited to make less confusing

Ron

This is a bit confusing, as I thought that the cars with that PRR "Merchandise Service" scheme shown in your photo, were indeed built. However the original poster's inquiry about the PRR "LCL SERVICE" scheme cars were NOT ever built. 

CAPPilot says that he has 2 of the MTH 'LCL Service' cars and acknowledges that they were never built.

He also showed a photo of 'MTH's interpretation of the X29 and x40B Merchandise Service' cars.  They are MTH's stand-ins for the cars since neither is the correct type of car and the 40' car has the silver stripe scheme.  All 40' cars had white stripe schemes like the Atlas X29.

OK, I sort of understand, i.e. the car models themselves are incorrect. However, the PRR did indeed actually have "Merchandise Service" cars, with two different paint schemes, depending on the years. However, the PRR never actually had "LCL Service" painted cars, correct?

You've got it!  The silver stripe vs. white stripe was not a time period thing though:  silver for cars longer than 40 feet, white for the 40-footers.  PRR Merchandise Service was a specialized fast freight, not entirely LCL but all priority cargo of some sort.  Even during the heyday of Merchandise Service (late 40's through mid 50's), more LCL freight moved in regular PRR boxcars than in those with Merchandise Service paint schemes.

Minor point of correction - the industrial designer on contract to the PRR was Raymond Lowey - not Robert Lowey.  In addition to classics such as the 5 stripe GG1 scheme Mr. Lowey did design work for Studebaker and other major companies.

Bob -The PRR had 40' X29b's as well as 50' X41b, and 60' X40b box cars in the "fancy" 4 color (white stripe outlined in silver, red background keystone, and freight car red body scheme).  The Merchandize Service fleet cars had load retaining devices to reduce the risk of damage to the boxed merchandise.  Two other paint schemes were applied to the MS boxcar fleet during the life of the service.  As the service expanded the PRR installed load restraining devices and re-lettered original body X29's and rebuilt X26b's in the simplified white stripe large circled keystone 2 color scheme modeled by AtlasO.  In the 1954 time frame the MS scheme was further modified with a tall shadow lined  keystone replacing the large circled keystone and tall PENNSYLVANIA lettering. Middle Division documented the shadow keystone schemes in their PENNSYLVANIA Railroad Compendium book and offered decals for that scheme.  Does anyone recall AtlasO offering their X29 in the later shadow keystone Merchandise Service scheme??

Ed Rappe

My earlier post stated the MTH 40' Merchandise Service car was an example of an X29; in fact it is representing an X29B (I corrected that post).  As stated by others, the X29 did not receive the MS phase 1 paint scheme, but the X29B did.  A while back Ted Hikel wrote that the "X-29B was a rebuilt car using a recycled X-29 underframe and a modern dimensioned car body.  An Atlas Masterline or MTH Premier AAR box car would be very close to the correct dimensions".  This makes the MTH AAR box car, which is in my photo above, pretty close to correct for an X29B.  Apparently the MTH AAR car has an incorrect roof pattern for a real X29B, but the MTH 40' MS car looks very good to me.

Ron

Ed you are correct, my mistake of Raymond Loewy's first name, as being Robert, as I previously posted and thank you for the info. of Pennsy's 'Compendium.' 

LOWEY'S DESIGNS WERE INSTRUMENTAL FOR P.RR's. 'L.C.L.' 'MERCHANDISE SERVICE' box cars, SCHEME 'PHASES' I, II & III, of cars, which were actually/prototypically made, as Ed points out.

My previous posted color photos. of Loewy's original,'PROPOSED,' 'Project 570' designs, which were beautiful RENDITIONS, for Pennsy's (ONLY TWO SIZES) of 'L.C.L. SERVICE' for X40B 60ft. and X41B 50ft. box cars, evidently were NEVER actually/prototypically made!!!!!!

Pro hobby's color photo. of a MTH, 40ft., X29B, PRR. (R.L. Designed), *PROPOSED* 'L.C.L. SERVICE' box car, which has the same scheme as the 60ft., X40B, *PROPOSED* 'L.C.L. SERVICE' box car, was NOT actually/prototypically made, EITHER!!!!

I hope this is clear enough!

Ralph 

CAPPilot,

I concur, with all that you have posted.

If, the X29 box car and rebuilt(X29), which becomes an X29B box car, were together, amongst other details, of the two, the most noticeable would be the height of the two.

The X29 is lower, than the X29B, giving the X29 an appearance of being longer!
Ralph

Ed,

The only company, that I know of, which produced the Phase III, 'BILBOARD' *SHADOWED KEYSTONE* scheme was Lionel and they produced it with a, close to prototypical, road number, but as a PS-1 sized box car, not as an X29 sized car, though it is marked as Class X29.

Lionel's box car is marked as an X29, but it IS definitely higher compared to an Atlas 'O' X29 box car and prototypical photos. of the actual Phase III, X29 car, compared to the actual Phase I, X29B car, shows that the Phase III car is lower than the Phase I car!!!!!

I do NOT believe, that P.RR. had Pullman Standard build their one, or two, Phase III, 'BILLBOARD' scheme cars, or used Pullman Standard building parts kits, at the P.RR. shops.

Ralph 

Here's Lionel's version of P.RR's., L.C.L. 'Merchandise Service' PHASE III schemed box car:

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-27266&expandBranch=0&Keywords=&CategoryID=474&RailLineID=&CatalogId=

Here's the 'Real-Deal'

Scroll down to Road #504087 Phase III scheme, and before this are scheme Phases I & II:

http://home.comcast.net/~abbuc...No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf

Ralph

A 1937 design AAR side sill doesn't look anything like the side sill area of an X29b.  The X29b lacks the "tabs" that detail the lower side of an AAR car while X29b side is very distinctive - straight and inset several inches from the car side.  If you can overlook the body differences and want a ready to run "stand in" PRR X29b Merchandise Service box car I'd agree that the MTH model is your best choice - just don't bring it to the upcoming PRRT&HS model contest!!.

Ed Rappe

Ed,

I agree that MTH's versions of the X29B 40ft. and their X41B 50ft., both Phase I scheme, box cars are the best, as stand ins for the real things.

My opinion is, that the actual/prototype P.RR. 'L.C.L. 'Merchandise Service' Phase III, 'Billboard' scheme, box car is nothing, in size comparison to P.RR's. X29B 40ft., 'L.C.L.' 'M.S.' Phase I box car.

Ralph.

If I may be so bold as to presume to understand a mind as great as Loewy's, I think I know what his aim was with this scheme.  I suspect that he intended the paint to represent the purpose of the car:  since an LCL car would be less than full, that's represented in the "freight car red" paint only covering 60% of the car, with the rest being grey - representing the empty space inside the car.  It's a brilliant bit of form following function.  I suspect PRR brass didn't see it his way, which is why the grey became a more "conventional" stripe in practice.

In any case, it makes me REALLY want one, even though I don't model the PRR.

OK, PRR, MoPac, and SP had special cars painted for LCL service.  Did any other railroad have special painted cars?  (Does the St. Louis Southwestern/Cotton Belt BLUE STREAK boxcars count?)

Yes Dominic,

NYC, B&O, Bangor and Aroostook, this is to the best of my recollection.

Other, members may be of more help, because there had to have been more RR's. with their versions of 'L.C.L.' 'Freight Service' box cars.

Ralph

A very interesting discussion, gentlemen. It directed me to Raymond Loewy, what an interesting man!

I discovered his book "Never Leave Well Enough Alone" and was able to read his account of how he came to work for M.W. Clement and in short order, redesign the GG1.

I can understand how this man would have designed the LCL paint scheme.

I started looking through the Pennsylvania Historical & Museum Archives for some actual PRR documents about him...but it's quite a daunting search engine.

Anyway, it's been fun and thanks!

Thank you Moonman for your input regarding Raymond Loewy.

He was responsible for many design concepts, for many businesses, other than railroads.

Ralph