Warhorse 4-8-4 ERR Cruise Commander and Timko Motor conversion

I've never done that exact locomotive, though I've done magnatraction stuff before.  I've never seen that effect, I'm wondering if something is binding and causing the slowdown.

It might be the camera angle, but to me the motor looks to be off center. might cause some binding of gears.

I have had some locomotives bind in a curve when the wheel gauge was too wide. With the motor worm disengaged see if it rolls through the curve without binding.

I'd also just rotate the motor without power through a full rotation of the drivers and see if there's any binding.

Looking at the bottom of the locomotive, the rear drivers look like they have been rubbing.... 

Spinning the motor by hand, I can’t feel anything other than the field of the motor as the armature passes the magnets. Maybe I need to try and shim the rear axle?

Well, if they're rubbing on the curves, that would CERTAINLY cause issues like you describe!  Shims sound like the answer.

FWIW, if there's slop in the axles, I cut a shim out of plastic bread clips, it slips right over the axle and solves the problem.  Just cut around the opening to make a circular "washer" and slip it onto the axle.

Found bent drivers. With just the shell, no drivers and no smoke unit mechanics it seems to do better until it loses traction. I will straighten the drive rods and add a part at a time till it gives me an issue.

I've got an old 736 that tends to bind just like that.  Thanks GRJ.  Gotta tell the wife to get more bread.

You could have a quartering issue, something that old could have well been dropped, banged, etc. and knocked a wheel off enough to cause a problem.  I don't think that slight bend is likely to be the cause, but you never know.

Went and dug through the RC car box and found some plastic washers that I can split and shim with.

might as well regrease the gearbox too. It looks like it’s seen better days. 

I bought this engine used, who knows what if any maintenance has been done on it.

SPFord27 posted:

Went and dug through the RC car box and found some plastic washers that I can split and shim with.

might as well regrease the gearbox too. It looks like it’s seen better days. 

I bought this engine used, who knows what if any maintenance has been done on it.

I spy a bread bag clip.....don’t let Heather’s bread go stale......or we’ll never see you again....

Looks like the cruise simply isn’t working. Try it on a straight section and place your hand in front trying to slow the engine down. If cruise is working you should be able to feel it trying to keep the speed. 

Speed step 3. Speed step 2 is about the same, and speed step 1 isn’t as smooth. As far as the cruise, you can hear and feel it trying to pick up speed if you apply pressure. I am wondering if it’s a gearing and motor size combination issue. 

There is 0 end play in the motor. Shouldn’t there be a little bit of end play?

Are the spacers still in place between motor mount and frame?

Yes.

Tried pulling the shim out between the mount and the E clip, no improvement.

If it feels like the worm is trying to dig into the worm wheel when turning the motor by hand, ever so slightly loosen the motor mount screws one at a time. If this seems to relieve the “pressure” then temporarily make you some paper shims and shove them under the motor mount in front of the screws, ever so slightly raising the nose of the worm off the wheel....not too much or she’ll be a skippin’.....

Thats what I meant . Between the engines frame and old part of pulmor motor there should be shims ,one on each side about .001 in

The shims under the motor mount are still in place.

I put a load on it and on speed step 4 it seems to maintain. Slower than that and it slows and speeds up. Speed step 3 is barely noticeable with a load, but I was expecting this thing to creep consistently like the other engines I converted. 

The only thing I haven’t tried at this point it loosening the motor and changing the engagement of the word and drive gear. 

You are describing a classic case of binding in the drivetrain.  The cruise senses the lower back-EMF and adds power, then you get a burst of speed and it removes the power.  Surging if almost always a problem with excessive friction in the drivetrain.

The drivetrain in this loco is based on a postwar 736.  I believe the gear ratio is only 8.33 to 1.  The Timko motor is small and probably makes less torque than the original slow-turning Pullmor motor did.  Search the forum for another fellow who upgraded his Berk to a Timko motor- despite his hopes, it didn't run as well as "modern" locos with better (numerically higher) gearing.

All of these Berks and northerns have the worm wheel on the last driving axle.  This is a sub-optimal design.  For best performance and the least amount of "slop" in the side rods, the worm wheel should have been on one of the middle axles.

If you must have a traditionally-sized 'J', you might be happier with the RailKing model (14:1 gear ratio)  With PS2 or ERR cruise, it will run better than the Warhorse and you could weather it yourself.  A Railking Mohawk (17:1) or a LionChief Plus Mikado (20:1) would run better still.  Ironically, the Mikado also has its worm wheel on the 4th axle.    A better mouse trap, but I guess there's always room for improvement!

Ted, that is what I was wondering, is the gearing too steep for the weight and output of the motor. It seems to perform well at higher speeds which would make sense with the gearing. I put it in 32 speed step mode just to see how it performed and it was really moving on speed step 2. To cover all bases I will check the mesh by playing with the motor mount shims, but I am starting to think it just a combination issue as much as I would like it to be a binding issue.

Does anyone know where can I find specifications on the wheel spacing? I don't think it would hurt to check for a quartering issue.  

As for having to have a traditional J, I don’t have to have one but I wanted to have this one operational and enjoyable. I have the whole weathered set along with a second set of weathered cars and just wanted to have a usable warhorse set. The AC motor was not ideal for running or enjoyable to me. It still runs slow enough as is to not make a lot of noise with the conversion, it just doesn’t ceep. I actually have a RailKing that was given to me that I converted to ERR and RS 5 out of the scale J that runs really well. The motor size between the two is quite a bit different with the MTH having a larger can motor. I use the traditional J for pulling the Christmas boxcars as they look silly behind my scale J or scale Heritage SD70ACE. 

I really appreciate everyone’s help and input on this! 

The subject of "correct" wheel gauge has come up before.  There's no real standard for 3-rail, and for classic Lionels it varies by locomotive.  For example, the large 700-series Hudsons should be gauged on the narrow side if they're expected to run on O31 curves.  The little 2-4-2's are gauged wider so they don't "hunt" from side to side on tangent track.  I did a search, this link will take you to some recent threads on the subject:

https://ogrforum.com/...ation.sort=ITEM_DATE

I also did a search for RJR's posts about installing a Timko motor in his 736 berk.  Same drivetrain as your Warhorse, and he had similar problems to yours.  Scroll through and read some of these threads:

https://ogrforum.com/...ation.sort=ITEM_DATE

After watching the videos a 2nd time, your loco isn't too bad (and with a consist it would be even smoother.)  Hope you're able to improve it fully.  Good luck and thanks for sharing your project!!

I tried adding .007” shims under the factory shim and it made 0 difference. The only resistance I can feel is from the cam and pushrod for the smoke unit and chuff switch. With 6 scale three bay covered hoppers and a scale heritage caboose speed step 3 seems to be the threshold for consistency. There is a slight change in pace on 3 and it is steady on 4. You can hear the motor change tones as the board regulates it. Again, it’s not flying, it just won’t creep steadily. Compared to how it ran with the pullmore, it’s much more enjoyable!

Remove the smoke unit push-rod as a test and see if that cures it.

No difference. 

It was worth a shot, I've seen some upgrades where the force for the smoke piston was sufficient to actually cause running issues at low speed.

What exact model motor is in that conversion?  I wonder how many poles it has?

I don’t know what motor it is. It’s the same size as the Legacy diesel motors. I am assuming it’s a Mubachi 325 with what looks like an additional heat sink similar to the legacy motors. He has a Timko sticker on the motor, so I can’t tell what it is. I can try pulling the Timko sticker to see if there is anything under it. I would say it’s a safe bet that it would peel the factory sticker if I tried. I might have better luck with calling him and asking. I don’t know how he does the output shaft either. I don’t know if there is a coupler in the old housing or if the motor is made with an extra long armature.

The reason I ask is there are certain motors that just don't play well with cruise.  One thing you can do is slowly rotate the motor and see if you feel a noticeable "cogging" effect when it's not connected to anything.  It needs to be disconnected from the locomotive driveline as well.  If you feel cogging, that's an indication that it is likely to have a problem with back-EMF cruise.

Yes, you can definitely feel the cogging in this motor. You can feel it with it installed in the locomotive and removed.

Here is a quick clip of the MTH I converted. I was expecting similar results out of the old warhorse. This has a cruise lite, rail sounds 5 and a fat boy speaker. It will creep like that all the way around the track. Based on the discussion above, it sounds like the gearing is numerically higher and the motor is larger. 

If the cogging is more pronounced than other similar sized Mabuchi motors, I doubt you're going to fix this without replacing the motor.  The good news is, the Mabuchi 3.xx series motors are mostly all close to the same size and have the same shaft size and mounting hole spacing.

The MTH locomotive has much better gearing, usually around 16:1.

While the tall gear ratio might cause some issues, you should be able to get smooth operation at any speed step with the right motor.

I spoke with Frank today, he said it a Mabuchi 385 5 pole motor. He also said that he has ran them with the cruise boards without issue.

FWIW, all Mabuchi RS385 motors are not created equal.  I have the RS-385PH here and it exhibits significant cogging.  However, the RS-385SH motor has none.  I wonder if it's a combination of the cogging and the tall gearing that is adding up to create the issue.

Frank said to send it back and we could try another motor in it. Is there a Pittman that is comparable in size that might perform better? I would assume there is. 

I don’t know how much more room you got in that boiler casting, but how about this short little fat dude?......

This is really the solution that's needed:

http://www.tuveson.com/DCmotor...motor_conversion.htm

http://www.tuveson.com/GearedM...ar_reduction_kit.htm

The Flyer guys have had it for years, why don't we??  I blame RailKing.  Once that came out, it was easier to buy something new than to improve what was already there.  There's only so much these little motors can do, the gear ratio is hopeless.  30:1 or bust!!

That’s an easy solution! I need to find an old motor to take part and cut up for the mount and shaft now. 

Pat, that might be too large, I will have to see how much room I have. I need to come down there and run some trains on the layout.