Watts vs. Volts...

A great accessible article describing watts, amps, and voltage and how they are related and different:

http://www.newelectric.com/wha...mps-volts-and-watts/

I don't run much Flyer, but for the period Lionel I run, I would take the S transformer over the 15B.

However, I wouldn't immediately look to the power source as iffy conductivity can sometimes be masked by applying more power. I would look to servicing the equipment by taking actions such as cleaning the electrical paths including the track, wheels, brushes, commutator and so on as well as general lubrication of moving parts including the trucks on rolling stock.

Wattage measures power (energy) consumption and is therefore the quantity you want to consider. Voltage is the "pressure" which pushes electrons through a circuit and creates a current, or flow of electrons, measured in Amperes. The basic equation for power is:

Watts = Volts X Amperes

If I understand you correctly, you are running the same engine on two different transformers. Therefore, for a particular track speed and load (number of cars), the power required (Volts times Amperes) should be the same. I believe this is the result you would get if you measure the voltage and current in each case and then multiply them together to calculate the wattage.

You do need to inspect the mechanical condition of the engine and motor to make sure that excessive wattage is not being consumed and turned into energy-wasting heat.

MELGAR

In overly simple terms, for the purpose of model train transformers, the Volts will decide how fast something can run and the Amps will decide how much stuff can be run at once off that transformer.  The Watts equals Volts times Amps, so in practical terms when dealing with transformers that output the same sort of 0-18VAC found in much of the post war stuff, the watts rating is more a factor of Amps when comparing one transformer to another.  

Continuing in practical terms, if the engine can't get enough voltage it will run slow.  If it cant get enough current (Amps and dumbing it down for the example, Watts) it will pop the breaker on the transformer, assuming there is one, otherwise start melting wiring and such.  

I would start by making sure the engine is in proper working order.  Make sure the armature and brushes are clean and such.  Then go on to make sure the pickups are clean as well.  If you can find any original documentation I'd also look to see what the recommended voltage is.  I'm not very familiar with Flyer but I think some of their stuff was designed for as much as 24 Volts.  

TLDR version; If you're not tripping the transformer's circuit breaker the problem is not enough Volts, rather than not enough Watts.  

(Yeah, I'm aware it's more complicated than all that, but it's good enough to answer the question)

Lets come at this from a different perspective. All Gilbert trains were designed for a maximum of 15V at the motor. American Flyer prior to the Gilbert purchase made trains and transformers up to 24V. The 15B should be about 16V open circuit at the transformer. It will supply up to 5A for a short duration at full throttle. It is more than adequate to operate any Gilbert train set. Transformers like the 15B, 17B, 19B and 30B can develop a high resistance at the interface of the transformer winding and the wiper or carbon roller. The rollers need to be cleaned or replaced if that happens.

The easiest way to get a Gilbert engine to smoke a lot is to not maintain, clean and lubricate it. As its mechanical resistance and the resistance at the brush/commutator interface increase it take more input voltage to produce the power to run the engine. This has the side effect of increasing the current through the smoke units nichrome wire making lots more smoke. A well maintained Gilbert engine should run at unrealistically high speeds at 12V. Since this results in less smoke many Gilbert operators rebuild the smoke units with fewer turns of wire to increase smoke output at lower voltages. See goldinhands.com if you want to do this.

The risk with using Lionel transformers set to 19V is the heat produced in the motor will cause it to fail prematurely. But it sounds like the Lionel transformer is running the 312 well at 12V to 14V.  From the descriptions you provide it sounds like two things are happening. First the 312 needs a tune up with the brushes replaced, the commutator polished and a complete lubrication. Assuming your 312 is a 1948 or newer it is also possible some of the very fine copper wire strands in the 4 conductor cable between the engine and tender have broken. When this happens the resistance increases and the engine runs poorly. The reverse unit could also need cleaning or replacement of the contact fingers. Swap the tender with one that is on a faster running engine and see what happens. You can use any tender that has the 4 wire jack. All my 312's are fast runners.

The second thing is it sounds like the 15B may need to be cleaned and the pickup roller/wiper replaced.

The advertised ratings of the transformers are usually quite different than the actual measured ratings.  Like stereo amps in the seventies.  Yeah it can do 200 watts but only for three seconds before it blows.

If you tested the transformers with a common test, i.e. resistor load, volt/current meters and a true wattage meter you would know what the actual wattage are.  You migjt be very surprised by the results.  Unregulated power supplies will sag under a load.  Wall warts are notorious for that.

Aussteve

Amps of the 1970 can be honestly determined.  The industry played with amp ratings by inventing misleading terms like music power etc.

You can find the honest rating of great manufactures like Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz, McIntosh, etc. you can depend on it being real.  An example is to use the wattage rated at "continuous power output of 185* watts min., at 8 ohms per channel at 20 Hertz to 20,000, both channels driven with no more than .03% total harmonic distortion" for a Pioneer 1280 receiver.

* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's trade Regulation rule on power output claims for Amplifiers.

Charlie

Choo Choo, regardless of the "rated " published specs and their "conditions", the results under test were actually quite different.

The Mac and Marantz clinics would come to each dealer once a year and test power output and distortion on anyone's amp for free.  They would plot a graph for you to keep.  The clinics were a huge selling aid for the two companies.  People waiting in line could witness other brand units failing before they got their turn.  The Mac and marantz units would easily meet spec, as did the AR-15 and AR-1500.  But the unit cost was much higher.  

I saw many Mac and Marantz units sold on the spot after a test of P-----r, S----i, K-----d, etc.  They could usually meet spec at 1lhz, but their distortion curves would predictably look like a bathtub. 

I built a homebrew prototype 100watt/channel amp at my first job out of college using the Motorola chipset.  It was an class AB built out of surplus parts and home made ckt boards and it was not pretty.  It took two trips to carry it into the Mac clinic and initially they did not want to test it.   After some discussion they relented.  Distortion at 20hz to 20khz was less than 0.5% but dropped to 0.1% at 90 watts.

It's not that hard to make a rough power test comparison between two transformers that are like kind and quality provided you have a stable static load.

AmFlyer posted:

The risk with using Lionel transformers set to 19V is the heat produced in the motor will cause it to fail prematurely. But it sounds like the Lionel transformer is running the 312 well at 12V to 14V.  From the descriptions you provide it sounds like two things are happening. First the 312 needs a tune up with the brushes replaced, the commutator polished and a complete lubrication.

1. I did all that when I first got it; sometime in the last year or so...but I will check those again.

Assuming your 312 is a 1948 or newer it is also possible some of the very fine copper wire strands in the 4 conductor cable between the engine and tender have broken. When this happens the resistance increases and the engine runs poorly.

2. Actually, it runs fine; just seems to draw more current than some of my other engines.

The reverse unit could also need cleaning or replacement of the contact fingers. Swap the tender with one that is on a faster running engine and see what happens. You can use any tender that has the 4 wire jack. All my 312's are fast runners.

3. I will try that. 

The second thing is it sounds like the 15B may need to be cleaned and the pickup roller/wiper replaced.

4. I did that when I first got the 15B; sometime late last year. Since it works well with other engines, I can only guess it's functioning as it should.

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions... 

Mark in Oregon

 

 

Strummer posted:

AmFlyer posted:

it is also possible some of the very fine copper wire strands in the 4 conductor cable between the engine and tender have broken. When this happens the resistance increases and the engine runs poorly.

2. Actually, it runs fine; just seems to draw more current than some of my other engines.

 

Drawing more current is a symptom of high/increased resistance, so brushing that off because it moves is not a valid troubleshooting conclusion.

When I was in college I wanted a McIntosh system but it was way out of my reach, so I bought a Fisher. Now that I can afford any system I want I still do not by a rack of Class A tube amps @ $10,000/channel because I really cannot hear the difference from a top end Denon with most sources. All those old ratings were into a constant 8 ohm load. Some also listed power into a 4 ohm load. The reality is speakers presented a complex non linear inductive load that varied greatly with frequency. Only the top end amps could deal with this with low distortion. It was all about the advertising copy for bragging rights.

Back to trains. Toy train transformers are almost never continuously loaded at maximum load. They do not have the internal cooling needed for that kind of operation. A ZW-L and a Z4000 might be the exceptions. A Gilbert 15B transformer (rated 110W input) will output 75W into a mix of resistive and inductive loads. About 20 Bulbs in turnout controllers and lanterns can be connected to the 15V post. That will be about 2.5A resistive. There is enough left to run a steam engine with smoke and choo choo, max 2.5A at about 80% power factor into the inductive load. Lights in 5 passenger cars are also ok since the continuous draw of the engine at 12V is not more than 1.5A. The 15B will also run a dual motor Alco PA, max 3.5A along with all the other loads mentioned.

The postwar transformers do have some voltage sag at heavy load but it does not matter because none of my Gilbert engines will stay on the track going around the curves at 14V. Depending on which transformer 14V is between 2V and 4V sag. On a Gilbert 4B 100W transformer I never measured more than 1V of drop at the output prior to tripping the thermal breaker. The Gilbert 4B and 8B transformers were really good if no more than 15VAC was needed.

Strummer, you say it is drawing more current. I am not sure that we know that without an ammeter in the circuit. What you have said so far is it takes a higher transformer output voltage to get the same performance as your other engines. That indicates there is a higher resistance, either mechanical or electrical, in the engine/tender set. I have to concur with BMORAN4's statement.

Of course you guys are right.

There is obviously something amiss with the #312, and I will look into it hopefully sometime later this week...after I take delivery (tomorrow) of the #370 GP7 (that's sitting in the Post Office) and proceed to ask a bunch of questions about it! 

Thank you.

Mark in Oregon