Weaver #1204 N&W Lightweight Passenger 5-Car Set???

let's see here:
The Weaver model represents a Budd-built car. Wrong.
The Weaver car is slightly short.
The Arrow did not have a streamline baggage car: http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/powhat49.htm
Plans for the Arrow cars can be found if you search long enough; I believe Prototype Modeler published them, e.g. The original, 1950 Arrow had seven cars.
Here is a floor plan for one of the coaches: http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/powhat49.htm

Anyway, it's your hobby, so can do as you like.

Kinda mentioned that in my post Rex, but thanks for the links!  I'm just glad I didn't pay a lot of $$$ for them, the whole 5-car set was less than 1 GGD Silver Meteor car!!!

Now that you mention it, Mainline Modeler ran articles on the Powhatan Arrow, starting with the coach in the December 1984 issue.

If you're looking for scale fidelity, etc, to go with your "J", try these guys:
https://unionstationproducts.com/norfolk-amp-western

American Lightweight (from years ago) made an Arrow set of kits, which I have. To go with my "J". They are scarce as hen's teeth, however.

The Weaver N&W cars represent a car that has two diaphragms. One, at full width of the body. The second is the rubber, normal looking one. 

Rex

  Any pics of the Union Station products?  

VistaDomeScott posted:

Rex

  Any pics of the Union Station products?  

Not really, you have to click on one of the diagrams/photos and it'll enlarge but that's it.

I did make a car using USP sides and core kit, but I was disappointed.  What I did do was get another "wrapper" and glue it to a OK Engines smooth-sided aluminum shell that I had windows/doors cut to match a Seaboard Pullman 10-6 sleeper.  I'm not sure if they sell the "wrapper" (sides AND roof as a single piece) or not.

Here's some photos I took of the USP kit in progress:

The USP kit by itself was extremely light and flimsy, but it did look nice.  Gluing the wrapper to the OK Engines smooth-sided aluminum shell worked, but I had to cut the roof from the sides.  O scale models this large are hard to handle when trying to glue a large 1-piece sheet of styrene in place.  It was easier with the 2 sides and roof separate:

If I could get another wrapper I'd give this another try, but it was difficult gluing the roof on, getting air pockets out, and keeping it lined up while doing so so it mated up to the sides.

I would love to see OK Engines and USP combine efforts and offer us the aluminum shell with windows cut to order to match the wrapper, and the wrapper applied.  While they're at it, they could team up with Delta Models and offer interiors separately!!!  This Pullman 10-6 Sleeper PORTSMOUTH has interior by Delta, makes for one HEAVY car.

Bob,

 Thanks for the info and pics.  At least for the car sides I want they only have a very basic drawing.  I assume that ordering 1 you are buying 1 car and 2 sides.  Their website isnt very good at promoting their products.  I need the Budd PRR 21roomette slabsides for my CVSR (Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR) "metro coaches" which are these former Pennsy "Inn" series roomette cars.  

 Your info helps give me an idea what I'm in for.  No idea where I will get the rest of the cars from.  I have 2 unmade Kasiner kits but one is a dome and I hate to cannibalize those kits.  Yes, Union Station should get into a joint deal with someone offering the rest of the cars.  

 I looked at their site before and wasnt convinced based on their descriptive only website, no photos.  I hoped GGD might make these 21 roomette Pennsy cars as they have many lives from tuscan red, to metal sides PRR, Penn Central, MARC Rail, Semta, and now the mainstay 80 seat coaches for CVSR.

But having the rest of a CVSR consist completed thanks to Christine's painting, the exx Pennsy cars are sorely missing from my consist.  Im taking a chance and ordered what I think are 2 cars worth of car sides.

 Could these be applied to an existing car with just the window areas cut out? 

Scott

Mac Shops offered a kit for the Budd 21 - roomette car. I do not know if Mac is still in business.

OK will cut windows to your specification, at the last time I looked.

rex desilets posted:

Mac Shops offered a kit for the Budd 21 - roomette car. I do not know if Mac is still in business.

OK will cut windows to your specification, at the last time I looked.

Rex, doing some quick searches it seems Mac shops were finished  more than 15 years ago.  No idea about OK.  Seems many of these products were under the radar, a real shame.  My Father had a small O scale product line and advertising in OGR was a necessary expense.  Pre internet businesses had it tougher.

I only recently heard of MAC, Kasiner, OK.

I ordered the sides and the core kit, the sides came with the roofing as a one-piece "wrapper":

I got a smooth aluminum body from OK Engines, and emailed them a drawing I made of where I wanted the cuts made:

As they say, measure twice!  I had to Dremel the truck cutouts a bit for additional clearance and enlarge the door window cutout in the right of the top drawing.  My measurements were just a tad off and some aluminum material would be seen thru the window opening.

If I did it again I would see if OK has a shell that is smooth on the sides and ribs on the roof, the wrapper didn't have any extra material and just met the bottom edges when applied.  Might not be a bad idea to have OK trim 1/16" off both side edges to make sure the wrapper covers completely (hope that makes sense!).

When I attached the wrapper I found the center of it and the centerline of the roof, so the wrapper would hang evenly down both sides, while making sure the windows all lined up.

Here's what the USP kit looked like while building:

But after a few days I ended up with a load of lumps and bumps:

I couldn't determine what adhesive to use and with the wrapper as large as it is, it made it difficult to apply to the clear core body.  That's when I bought another wrapper and went to OK Engines.

I think USPs concept is great for HO and smaller, but for our larger O scale cars it may take 2 people to keep things aligned and smooth, or a slightly different design (USP team with OKE).  I tired a number of different gluing methods with the core kit and sides and nothing seemed to work.  With the aluminum shell, I basically coated it with super glue and hoped for the best.

Thinking back, when I ordered the core kit and sides, the sides came as a wrapper including the roof.  But when I reordered the sides, I only got the sides, no roof.  I contacted them and, after what seemed like a lot of heated mis-communication, got another complete wrapper.  I would contact them and find out if the sides include the roof as a single "wrapper", or if you have to buy the core kit, or if you can buy separate roofing material.

The core kit includes the ends also, which are very nice.  I made my own floor for the aluminum shell.

As always, the main issue with building one of these to represent a car you want is finding decals, good luck!

Bob

Excellent info!!! Seems the easiest part for me may be my custom painter though!  OK Engines hopefully will be my body source.  I agree that the USP should be coordinated with these other manufacturers as it will only help them sell more.  

These products seem elusive and info sketchy.   Thanks for sharing your experiences with these.  

Scott

No problem Scott.  I was hoping I could talk GGD into making the Pullman 10-6 PORTSMOUTH when they did the Silver Meteor, but it would have required a different roof or fluting than that on the Budd cars.  Here's the real PORTSMOUTH:

GGD could make a fortune by offering a different style car every month or so, starting with the Pullman 10-6 of course

I don't know how many RRs bought this particular car or if there was slight variations of the basic plan.  Make a bunch of each Pullman, Budd, ACF type and offer them painted with decals or undecorated, maybe basic aluminum.  Of course UPS and OKE could do the same thing in kit form.  I think I used Lionel trucks under this car.

Is PSC still in business?  They made some nice plastic passenger car seats, but I can't locate any now.  Scale City Designs needs to do some photos so we can see what things look like, don't wanna buy the wrong thing.

Even though the N&W cars are wrong, I still want to put some seating in them, they're nekkid as it stands now.

I'm in the process of building a couple of C&O Pullman Standard passenger cars using the USP car sides. When I bought the sides I looked at what USP's core kit and thought it would be way too flimsy to build a car around. Also, when I got the car sides I didn't like the clear plastic that is supposed to reinforce the sides. Having built several American Lightweight Car Co. kits I tried using the ALW kit and just substituted the USP sides for the ALW sides.

This is a C&O 5 bedroom, lounge, blunt end observation on K-Line trucks.

This has been pretty successful. I like the USP sides as they come with skirts and the vestibule doors in one piece instead of separate pieces in the ALW kit.

I recently bought a couple of old ICC passenger kits to use as cores for the USP sides. I really like these as the assembly is simpler and results in a fairly strong car. The sides are built up using ALW's technique and glued to the ICC ends, vestibule, and floor. This is a C&O 11 double bedroom car riding on Atlas trucks. I haven't figured out how to secure the roof to the car yet.

Budd cars should be doable with the ICC kit. You would have to cut the roof from the USP sides and glue it to the smooth ICC roof, but it should work.

Ken

Looks great Ken!!!  What kits/parts did you by from USP?  The rounded roof ends look cool.

When I put the USP roof on the OKE shell, I ran a couple of lines of super glue the length of the car, lined up the 2 parts, and started putting it in place.  I squeegeed it with a roller, put more glue lines down, and repeated the process.  Make sure the parts are lined up at the beginning.  Wish I could think of something else besides super glue.  We're talking of a piece of thin styrene almost 6" wide and 20"+ long, not easy keeping things square.

Bob,

The only thing I bought from USP are the car sides. The rounded roof end is just thick pieces of Evergreen styrene glued to the roof end, sawed and sanded to shape.

I wouldn't be sure what kind of glue to use to attach long pieces of styrene to aluminum. On the first ALW kits I built, I just used regular old Testors liquid cement. Unfortunately after a few years the sides start to bow inward. No doubt a long term affect of the glue. That's what happened to my first attempt at the blunt end observation. I put it together and then put it aside for several years and the sides bowed inward so bad that the roof wouldn't fit. However, other cars have worked out pretty good. Once fully assembled some bowing appears but its really not visible unless you take the roof off.

These latest cars have the the inside car side reinforcement styrene glued on with CA. Everything else including the fluting is glued with Testors styrene cement.

Ken

Ken, I haven't tried this but it sez it'll bond plastic to metal:

http://www.loctiteproducts.com...y-Plastic-Bonder.htm

The last kits I received from Haynes MacDaniel (Mac Shops) was just a few years ago. He did the Budd PRR 21 roomette Inn series car and the C&O / B&O observation Wawasee, Dana, etc as Ken has pictured above. Plus he did a LOT of other kits. Haynes was a pharmacist who did passenger car kits as an aside. Not sure of his current status. Last I conversed with him he lived in Florida.

His kits were one piece aluminum bodies plus the end castings and underbody.

rheil posted:

The last kits I received from Haynes MacDaniel (Mac Shops) was just a few years ago. He did the Budd PRR 21 roomette Inn series car and the C&O / B&O observation Wawasee, Dana, etc as Ken has pictured above. Plus he did a LOT of other kits. Haynes was a pharmacist who did passenger car kits as an aside. Not sure of his current status. Last I conversed with him he lived in Florida.

His kits were one piece aluminum bodies plus the end castings and underbody.

I sure would like to get a hold of a few of those PRR 21 roomette cars.  I need skirts removed though.  The Union Station sides allow for skirt removal. 

Never heard of these products before recent weeks.

According to LinkedIn, Haynes McDaniel of Vero Beach is retired.

Yes, Haynes retired from being a pharmacist a number of years ago. I did e-mail Scott with Haynes' most recent address that I had as of about 2 - 3 years ago. He was selling whatever he had left but was not getting any extrusions re-run as the quantity and thus cost was prohibitive.

I am 76, and I believe Haynes was close to me in age. I first met him about 25 - 30 years ago at the Chicago March Meet 2 rail show.

Interesting topic Gents'.  I'm waiting on a OK Seaboard Hollywood lounge kit to go with a ALW kit.  I found on Ebay, a while back, original Walthers wood, and  metal coach seats. Toilets, sinks included.  Interior layouts can be found on the Pullman Standard website.  I never heard of UPS before, what exactly do they sell?

rheil posted:

I am 76.......

Just a young pup Bob!!!

I keep telling myself I'm going to live to be 130, but with all the aches and pains I have now at 67 if I do make it I'll be a shriveled up little knot.

I built a Sun-Lounge from an OKE shell a while back, what a PITA that was. The roof has to be Dremeled off to make a smooth roof as well as some of the fluting on the sides. Done it once, would not do it again:

The GGD Sun-Lounge is "The Stuff".  I ought to parked my "attempt" on a siding, I've already changed the name, can't have 2 Hollywood Beach cars now can I???

USP makes sides for the "Beach" series cars.

https://unionstationproducts.c...m-buffet-lounge.html

Still would have to cut window openings in a plastic roof but that's got to be easier than trying to cut them in an aluminum shell.

Ken

Ken, The OKE shell had them already cut out.  I don't see it in their catalog, but when Ted was there I contacted him and he said he had the plans for it so....

Anybody know who's running it now?

Still wanting to know what seats to use in my N&W coaches!!!  With that aside, this has been a fun discussion!!!

Bob Delbridge posted:

Is PSC still in business?  They made some nice plastic passenger car seats, but I can't locate any now.  Scale City Designs needs to do some photos so we can see what things look like, don't wanna buy the wrong thing.

Bob, PSC is still in business but is now owned by PF&S Railway Supply and they have whatever old stock that was left over at PSC.  I needed additional single seats for my sleeper car builds and I contacted them. You have to give them the exact PSC catalog number so they can go look to see if they have it. The person I talked with via email didn't impress me as being too knowledgeable of what parts they had so that's why the part number is important. I bought the last of the single seats they had in stock (which were four short of what I needed ) and they said they were not going to rerun them . I got the impression since these were injection molded plastic that's why they weren't going to rerun them. Anyhow they just may have what you're looking for.

Ken

Bob Delbridge posted:

Ken, The OKE shell had them already cut out.  I don't see it in their catalog, but when Ted was there I contacted him and he said he had the plans for it so....

Anybody know who's running it now?

Still wanting to know what seats to use in my N&W coaches!!!  With that aside, this has been a fun discussion!!!

Scroll though these photos for inspiration & happiness:

http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb...711&Type=Picture

kanawha posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

Is PSC still in business?  They made some nice plastic passenger car seats, but I can't locate any now.  Scale City Designs needs to do some photos so we can see what things look like, don't wanna buy the wrong thing.

Bob, PSC is still in business but is now owned by PF&S Railway Supply and they have whatever old stock that was left over at PSC.  I needed additional single seats for my sleeper car builds and I contacted them. You have to give them the exact PSC catalog number so they can go look to see if they have it. The person I talked with via email didn't impress me as being too knowledgeable of what parts they had so that's why the part number is important. I bought the last of the single seats they had in stock (which were four short of what I needed ) and they said they were not going to rerun them . I got the impression since these were injection molded plastic that's why they weren't going to rerun them. Anyhow they just may have what you're looking for.

Ken

if you have a good model of a seat, time for mold-making & resin casting. Fun for all

Thanks Rex!!!

One of the joys of being a retired old guy is time to go internet hunting for obscure subjects

I'm even older than Bob Heil....

rex desilets posted:

One of the joys of being a retired old guy is time to go internet hunting for obscure subjects

I'm even older than Bob Heil....

I didn't know we'd all end up being detectives!!!

Google is our friend, but sometimes you have to be creative in how you search for something.

I felt like 167 after walking in the 90+ degree heat this morning, I think it got up to 97 here today.

You guys are impressive!  No way I would ever struggle through all that.  Did you consider spray-on contact adhesive, in a rattle can?

I have cut windows in Kasiner, CRC, Speer, Mac Shops, and K-Line extrusions.  Far easier than using plastic overlays.  With a small belt sander you can remove corrugations, although I used an end mill on the K-Line.

I may never cut another blank.  Between K-Line and Sunset, I suspect almost any variant can be had.  Far cry from the 1970s.

bob2 posted:

Did you consider spray-on contact adhesive, in a rattle can?

Bob, for me the problem was trying to keep the styrene wrapper straight while applying it to the shell.  I don't recall if I tried contact cement, I think I did at least think about it, but every time I've used contact cement once the 2 parts touch there's no moving it into position.

Whatever is used has to be a uniform thickness or you'll get lumps like in the photos.

I should have invested in a milling machine years ago.  The mini-lathe is nice, but I feel of the 2 I could do more with a mill.

Having a separate roof and sides would help.  If a roof wrap was wider/longer than needed it could be put on then trimmed, followed by each side.  I'm still not sure if USP sells separate roof sheet material.

What we need is the Star Trek replicator!!!

Gents, OKengines is still making cars'. He is still cutting out windows on special designs cars.  Not everything is in his catalog'.......If you need something, just contact him'....

Bob Delbridge posted:

rheil posted:

I am 76.......

Just a young pup Bob!!!

I keep telling myself I'm going to live to be 130, but with all the aches and pains I have now at 67 if I do make it I'll be a shriveled up little knot.

I built a Sun-Lounge from an OKE shell a while back, what a PITA that was. The roof has to be Dremeled off to make a smooth roof as well as some of the fluting on the sides. Done it once, would not do it again:

The GGD Sun-Lounge is "The Stuff".  I ought to parked my "attempt" on a siding, I've already changed the name, can't have 2 Hollywood Beach cars now can I???

Bob, is this a GGD car, or a OKengines car'... or two different cars'... I don't want to have trouble with the roof on the kit from OK???

Thanks

That's the OKE car after I removed the fluting.

Here's both cars, the GGD car is the lower and the OKE modified car is the upper, both cars are same length.  The GGD car has a frame around the roof windows, I need to add that and the exhaust cover over the bar area on the OKE car:

On the OKE car I removed fluting from the roof and on the sides, as well as the small door access to the bar area on the side.

Bob, considering you finished off the OKE car yourself, and the GGD car is manufactured by pros in Korea, it looks pretty darn good'..Of course the GGD does look a tad sharper, and that is to be expected'.  They are both beautiful cars'.  I showed the pics to my wife just now, and she exclaimed "wow what a beautiful car', you should get one'.... I think that says it all...

I'm waiting for my hollywood kit from OKE'.  I'll be checking it with you when I receive it for assistance, I'msure'...

Who did you use for your interior detailing parts?  It looks real good'...

Just take your time with whatever needs to be done.  After Dremeling off the fluting I sanded, filed, polished, buffed, whatever it took to get the roof smooth, went thru many sanding drums on the Dremel.  I don't know if a mini-mill would be worth trying, for one thing you'd have to make sure the shell is held securely in place with no chattering of the metal as you remove the fluting.  A drum on the Dremel was easy to guide and handle.

Good luck!!!  If you have questions feel free, I just hope I can remember what I did so I can help.

Looking at the Scale City Designs catalog, they have coach interior kits:

48-808

48-971

48-972

48-973

48-974

but no photos.  Anybody got any photos?  I'm thinking the 48-974 (1950s seating) would be correct but would like to see it before I buy.