Well cars: Which ones are scale?

Each manufacturer makes compromises for their product to work for the masses. This is a product, that may not be compatible from one brand to another even when they are "scale". There have been some nice product releases that look the part and please most of us.

Now you have to be aware that there are different length well cars in real life. The newest are the 53' I believe?

I run mainly O scale 2 rail so I have to convert most brands to 2 rail.

I like the MTH ones for how well they roll and their price. The containers look good. I was buying these first.

I like the newer Lionel ones (vs. the oldest more toyish 1st release) for the quality. The containers looks good. The lengths are different than other manufacturers. So I keep each brand's containers in the matching cars.

I like the Atlas ones the best overall. The containers look good, and the cars are metal. I have had some truck issues but later releases fixed the issues. Their couplers got much better. The newest 53' well cars are my favorite well cars so far.

There's an old intermodal post that has a lot of great info. I can't find it?

here's another one:

O Scale Freight Car Guide: Intermodal Cars | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

@Engineer-Joe posted:

Each manufacturer makes compromises for their product to work for the masses. This is a product, that may not be compatible from one brand to another even when they are "scale". There have been some nice product releases that look the part and please most of us.

Now you have to be aware that there are different length well cars in real life. The newest are the 53' I believe?

I run mainly O scale 2 rail so I have to convert most brands to 2 rail.

I like the MTH ones for how well they roll and their price. The containers look good. I was buying these first.

I like the newer Lionel ones (vs. the oldest more toyish 1st release) for the quality. The containers looks good. The lengths are different than other manufacturers. So I keep each brand's containers in the matching cars.

I like the Atlas ones the best overall. The containers look good, and the cars are metal. I have had some truck issues but later releases fixed the issues. Their couplers got much better. The newest 53' well cars are my favorite well cars so far.

There's an old intermodal post that has a lot of great info. I can't find it?

here's another one:

O Scale Freight Car Guide: Intermodal Cars | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Thanks for the info. I will try to go for as small as possible (while trying to be scale ) considering the fact that I’ll likely run a smaller o48 (unlikely but maybe o60) layout.

I run the Railking Husky stack cars that while not scale do look great behind any modern locomotives and have the ability to go around 0-31 radius.

@bigboy25 posted:

I run the Railking Husky stack cars that while not scale do look great behind any modern locomotives and have the ability to go around 0-31 radius.

While I have a strong preference for scale, I might have to go this route. Any idea how far off scale they are? Thanks

For scale doublestack cars,

K-Lline for articulated 5 unit 40' National Steel car sets. [ you will have to swap out the trucks and detail the decks.]

MTH premier for scale Gunderson 48' Maxi Stack well cars and 40'/48' Twin Stack cars with bulkheads.

Atlas O for Scale 40'/48' Twin Stack cars with bulkheads and 53' 3 unit 53' well cars.

Check my post and pictures in the scale vs semi scale stream. Even Atlas compresses a bit.

@Csxcellent posted:

While I have a strong preference for scale, I might have to go this route. Any idea how far off scale they are? Thanks

The Railking car on the left is my son’s. It’s pretty well proportioned for a selectively compressed car, but it’s a lot smaller than the scale Premier version:

RM

@HiramO posted:

Check my post and pictures in the scale vs semi scale stream. Even Atlas compresses a bit.

I did and the car in your other post isn’t an Atlas car. It’s one of the old ROW Industries cars. I’m a scale guy and mix a few ROW cars into my trains because they’re large enough and can hold scale 40 foot containers and they give the look of a Thrall style car. Atlas cars are scale.

RM

FWIW, the old ROWI cars are being run by Menards as their TTX doublestack cars.

@Rich Montague posted:

The Railking car on the left is my son’s. It’s pretty well proportioned for a selectively compressed car, but it’s a lot smaller than the scale Premier version:

RM

Thanks

@prrhorseshoecurve is right, the resemblance is certainly uncanny and the old ROW containers also fit the Menards car. Below is an Atlas 40’ container on top of two 20’ ROW containers in the Menards well car. It’s also worth mentioning that Menards has said to expect a new wel car, or well cars, in spring early summer!

However, it’s also worth pointing out that the Menards containers do not fit on the ROW containers- would it be different if it were a single 40’ ROW container? Considering that the ROW containers were obviously compatible with each other, I doubt it- see pic below of Menards container on ROW containers. It’s already known that the Menards containers are not scale, unfortunately

Scale Length* 40’ And 20 )Containers compatible with Menards Lopac2000 w/o modification:

K-line 20’ And 40’- snug but it works

ROW 20’(I assume the 40’ does as well)

Containers compatible/look fine in Menards well car w/o a container on top:**

MTH Premier 20’

Containers compatible with minor modification:

Weaver 20’- bottom of container may/may not have to be removed due to protrusions on the bottom. Even with removal, there are pegs molded into the corners but when two are in the container it’s a snug fit length wise that holds them in place

Containers requiring modification that affects appearance:

Atlas ***40’ container- pictured above also does not fit in the Menard’s well due to the detailing on the doors.

*Note 1: Only Containers considered  had to have scale lengths(40’= 10”, 20’=5”). MTH RK Husky stacks and Lionel Maxi stacks not considered. Further, Lionel Husky stacks, to my knowledge, are not scale(9.5” in length?)and therefore also not considered

**Note 2- Cannot speak for MTH 40’ Premier Containers as I do not have any

***Note 3- My Atlas Containers are from when the boxes said “big O motive power”. Thus, I’m not sure if the doors are still an issue. Further, I can’t speak for their 20’ containers, which would work considering they’re only slightly altered former Weaver tooling that has gotten rid of the hinderances mentioned

I had been compiling a list of measurements for intermodal container(length, width, height, molded-in pins or holes, length of the distance between pins/pin holes, width of the distance between pins/pin holes- and determining compatibility

Slightly off topic- but are the @K-line TTAX 2 Unit spine cars that fit two 20’, one 40’, one 48’ or one 40’ Trailer scale? I know the 5 unit sets are prototypical and scale. Picture below for reference- help is appreciated!(Atlas front Runner with Xyra Lease 45’ Pines trailer in front of the two diecast TTAX cars with trailer on first and 40’ container on second)

@Csxcellent posted:

Thanks for the info. I will try to go for as small as possible (while trying to be scale ) considering the fact that I’ll likely run a smaller o48 (unlikely but maybe o60) layout.

There's an era question here.  When I was involved with intermodal at the NYC in the 60's, 40 ft. was the standard trailer length, and all TOFC cars were 85 ft.

Later, after the FHWA approved 53 ft. as a standard, the two trailers per car didn't work.

@mlaughlinnyc is right- correct me if I’m wrong here- initially railroads were able to use existing rolling stock, with modifications(i.e. ramps for I believe it’s called “circus style loading”?) with piggyback 20 foot trailers in the 1930s, 35 foot trailers and then 40 foot trailers. In the 1950s you have intermodal containers, but these would go in a Gondola. Crucial to this development Malcom McClean, the founder of Sealand.  From here on-ward modern intermodal begins to take shape but not without the trials and tribulations of a lack of standarized dimensions for the containers which impeded operations on cargo ships.  Hence, during the 50s the US DoD creates standards for containers.

Skip ahead to the late 60s and early 70s, the ISO adopts the earlier US DoD standards. With standardized containerazation now in place, as well as the adaptation of twistlocks(IBCs) McClean made the obvious observation that trains could carry more cargo than trucks. Thus, McLean, in partnership with Southern Packfic & ACF decide to take it a step further. As opposed to a single trailer on the road or a one 40’ container on a flat car, they introduce the double stack Well car in 1977. This Avoided clearance issues and obviously doubled the amount of cargo compared to an equally sized single Tofcee or Cofcee. From there things really took of with APL and Gunderson throwing their hats in the ring in the early/mid 80s

Throughout this rapid growth period, containers and trailer chassis gradually  increased in size leading to the development of a host of new freight car types and subtypes. Articulated well cars and spines, well cars that had a type of bulkhead limiting the container length to 40’ on bottom and top, all-purpose well cars with trailer hitches(Your Gundersons-Atlas & K-line Have produces these in scale I THINK- don’t shoot but correct if I’m wrong), the Thrall Lopac2000 , similar to the Gunderson except not able to carry trailers(same disclaimer as the Gunderson, Econostacks or Twin Stacks(I believe Atlas makes them) which have supports on both ends allowing for a 40’ on the bottom and nothing larger than a 45’ on the top. Also introduced where non-well car intermodal “flats” which I put in quotations because they’re nothing like the original flat car. One example with be the failed two axle Front Runner, only able to carry trailers, with its skeleton like frame(K-line made these and WBB makes them using that K-line tooling, however, these models have four axles. While not totally prototypical I believe there’s a pic of a 4 axle front runner in the intermodal primer. Atlas makes scale 2 axle Front Runners). Then there’s the spine cars, also carry combos of containers and/or trailers are in articulated units of 3 or 5(K-line And MTH have made these, MTH called them Spline cars in the 2000 catalog. Don’t know if MTH made any since. I do believe Atlas made these as well?). There’s also 89’ Cofcees And 89’ Tofcees to accommodate combinations of 20’, 40’, 45’ 48’ containers and trailers, respectively(yes even 48’, 48+48 is 92-just look it up lol. Atlas has produced the 89’ car. Coincidentally, just as some of the 50’ flats of 60+ years ago became auto carriers  with the introduction of the well car, the 89’ flats are being repurposed into Autoracks when a RR or leasing company determines its run its course in that capacity.  MTH, Atlas And Lionel have produced these 89’ autoracks. EDIT: To clarify, Atlas has also produced an articulated hinged autorack,  The best thing about the articulated auto rack is it is 35” long but, due to the adjustable hinge, can run on different curve diameters- even on 0-42!  It has 3 settings: o-42, o-54, o-63- in a way similar to how tenders  with drawbars sometimes have two holes for a steamer to adjust to wider curve diameter. Finally, since I’m hitting a wall, I believe Atlas will be making MaxiStacks?

Hope that was helpful. And please correct me if I’m wrong in who made what or what certain well cars are called or how they work. I’m still relatively new at this after wasting 2.5 months getting traditional sized well cars.

Yes, tying into @mlaughlinnyc second pint regarding the 53’ trailers. Recall how I mention the 48’ above. The 53’ certainly hastened the lifespan of the 89’ cars. I forgot to throw it in up there, but another component in the adaptation of the well car and move away from long flats was the increasing size of containers and trailer chassis. Larger container was introduced, railroads responded to the need only to find their new investment short-lived or possibly already obsolete

@StevefromPA posted:

Slightly off topic- but are the @K-line TTAX 2 Unit spine cars that fit two 20’, one 40’, one 48’ or one 40’ Trailer scale? I know the 5 unit sets are prototypical and scale. Picture below for reference- help is appreciated!(Atlas front Runner with Xyra Lease 45’ Pines trailer in front of the two diecast TTAX cars with trailer on first and 40’ container on second)

K-Line 5 unit spine cars are short. TTAX 5 unit spine cars were made to accommodate 48' containers. MTH premier 5 unit spine car sets are prototypical.

The Kline 40' Thrall ribbed well cars are scale.

The kline "48ft" Gunderson wells [no ribs] are only scale 40' length and will only fit a 40 ' container in the well whereas a prototypical 48' well car fits a 48ft container in the well.

I hope this helps

@prrhorseshoecurve Thanks for the help- know that you know your intermodal very well from my constantly checking the intermodal primer. Also, if IRCC you went to the last Renninger’s meet-  in case you didn’t know there’s one this weekend.

First, regarding the K-line TTAX spine cars- do you mean short as in the car itself is short in length but will accommodate 48’ containers? I only ask because they do indeed fit 48’ containers. I checked the two pics shown below of my K-line 77022 2-unit TTAX Spine with a 40’ OoCK & 48’ SP container(side note-setscan be expanded to 5 units) vs MTH pictures  5 unit and 2 unit and sets-the 48’ looks the same on both

This picture is off the K-line 5 unit set from the 2000 Catalog

MTH Spine car pics from the internet- the BN American up top is obviously the 48’. The container doesn’t appear to be any longer on the Spine car than the K-line

Also, MTH 2-car Spine sets with 48’ containers, same thing as above

Regarding the K-line well cars I’m a bit better acquainted(Spine cars just came 2 days ago- prior to that I had the early 90s Lionel 2 unit set). I have 2 K-line well cars- APL Thrall and a CSX Gunderson. Unfortunately, I believe this K-Line Thrall is one of the few(only?) K-line Thralls that is scale length for a 40’ container but has the 48’ measurement on the side:

K-line APL Thrall K-7752 with K-line 40’ container on bottom and Atlas 40’ container on top. “48” next to the APL is incorrect as are the measurements along the brim of the well showing “40’, 45’, 48’” on the side is in correct as the well does not fit a 48’ container.

K-line K-7764 CSX Gunderson- APL 40’ Container on bottom, BN 48’ container on top. As pointed out by @prrhorseshoecurve notice the lack of ribbing. Also notice the orange “5th wheel” on each end to accommodate a trailer(you’ll have to remove the mud flaps if you have a K-line trailer, at least I couldn’t make it work without doing so). Again, same measurement problems as with the Thrall above

below is the Menards well car between the above two K-line cars:

I noticed how that pic makes the Menards car look smaller than the 16.5” K-like cars. Looks can be deceiving. As advertised my Menards their car is 17.5”, see pic  below. At top of phot the end of each car is Lined up, the difference in length is displayed at the bottom of the pic

Now, finally a picture of the K-line Thrall with proper identifying measures regarding the well size. From the 200 or 2001 K-line catalog, the 2 unit  TTX articulated Thrall set at the bottom of the pic has a nice, big “40” indicating the proper length of the well:

So, @Csxcellent, for K-line well cars they are scale length for 40’ containers. However, they often incorrectly indicate that their wells are 48’. Despite this incorrect detailing, the cars are still well made and prototypical for a 40’ Thrall or Gunderson. IIRC K-line had actually made decals or some corrective ‘cover’ to show the correct measurements on the sides of the wells.

Unfortunately, I can’t help you with Atlas as I haven’t bought any Atlas well cars despite having a great place to go for them with an abundance of the 3 car sets which are cheaper there yet still expensive($210 when on saw) and containers. Hopefully, one of these days I’ll get myself on of those sets as I know they’re prototypical in both scale and detailing.