Were most Santa Fe freights operated as Scheduled or as Extra movements in the 1940s and 1950s.

Almost all Santa Fe through freight trains and all main line locals ran as extras, and Santa Fe used white flags during daylight hours until around 1957.

Santa Fe had schedules for its principal freight trains.  However, with a very few exceptions, the schedules were for information only, and did not appear as regular trains (trains with a timetable schedule granting authority).  Most of the exceptions were on branch lines which had a passenger train -- typically a doodlebug or a mixed train -- and did not have many 24-hour train order offices at stations on the branch.  The freight trains would usually have a schedule on the branch line as Second Class trains (which were Regular Trains) so that they could use their timetable authority on the branch line, turn and return to the main line without having to secure a clearance card and train orders except at their originating station.

I have some things to do and I will post some time table images later today.

Thank you very much for this information Number 90 -- I will be using white flags now to go along with the white class lights.

Here are employee time table pages which demonstrate how Santa Fe ran its through freight trains.  Illinois Division Time table No.83, in effect Sunday, April 5, 1950, at the end of all of the Districts which list stations and schedules of Regular Trains, has a table identified as “Freight Train Terminals and Junctions”, with the disclaimer, “ Trains shown in this tabulation, have no timetable, authority,”

You can see how each train is identified as freight or fast freight, and where it’s destined to or from.

You can also see No.47 Way freight, which means local, in the freight train section, leaving Streator, Illinois, and running extra to Ancona, where the Pekin District (branch) leaves the main line. However, once it enters the Pekin District, No.47 becomes a Second Class Train (a Regular Train) , takes down the white signals (flags and/or class lights) and does have authority to run down to Pekin and return as No.48 on the scheduled times shown at Pekin District stations.  When No.48 arrives back at Ancona, that freight train tabulation takes over again and No.48 would put up the white signals and run extra to Streator, using Automatic Train Control (cab signals), which was the method of operation granting authority between those two main line stations. Streator was the originating station for No.47, and the final station for No.48.

The reason it was done this way is to avoid paying Telegraphers at intermediate branch line stations for second trick ("swing shift") or third trick ("night shift").  Most branch line stations only had station personnel during first trick (daylight shift").

Not all Santa Fe branch lines were operated this way.  Of course not . . . that would make things too easy. Normally, only branch lines with passenger service or multiple daily trains operated this way.  The Pekin District had a daily doodlebug in each direction, hence the schedule for the branch line freight Nos.47-48, to keep it out of the way of the doodlebug.  

If there were no regular passenger trains on a different branch line and no freight trains other than one daily local, the local would typically run extra on the branch with a train order instructing it to run extra from the station where it left the main line, run to the turning point and return.  That train order would be issued at a main line train order office where the train crew went on and off duty.

This is probably more than you asked for, but it explains the reasoning behind Santa Fe's practices regarding freight trains running extra.

Again, many thanks Number 90 -- very informative and interesting.

I have a related question about class lights. I know that a train in multiple sections (typically a passenger train) carried green lights on the first section and on each following section, but how was the last section of such a multi-section train train designated? Green lights would not be correct, because there would be no more following sections.

@B Smith posted:

Again, many thanks Number 90 -- very informative and interesting.

I have a related question about class lights. I know that a train in multiple sections (typically a passenger train) carried green lights on the first section and on each following section, but how was the last section of such a multi-section train train designated? Green lights would not be correct, because there would be no more following sections.

Right. The last "section", would generally carry no "signals" since it was probably the actual timetable "real" scheduled train.

But then wouldn't the first section be running ahead of schedule if the final section was on the timetable schedule? I thought that running ahead of schedule was not allowed.

@Number 90 posted:

This is probably more than you asked for, but it explains the reasoning behind Santa Fe's practices regarding freight trains running extra.

Tom,

I probably speak for a lot of people on this forum when I say your insight is never more than asked for.  Great reading and I learned more from this post than my entire day in the office!

Thanks Tom! I agree with Jonathan. Very much good information supported by primary source material and an understandable explanation.

After a little research, I believe it is correct to say that the first section of a scheduled multiple-section train would run according to the timetable. Following sections would then be somewhat behind the timetable, as you would expect.

@B Smith posted:

But then wouldn't the first section be running ahead of schedule if the final section was on the timetable schedule? I thought that running ahead of schedule was not allowed.

You are correct about leaving ahead of time. That's a rule violation that will result in being dismissed from service.  Here's how it would have worked in the days of timetable and train order method of operation:

• Remember that trains were superior to other trains by right, class, and direction.  
  • Right is conveyed by train order.
  • Class and direction are conveyed by timetable.
• Thus, a train order can override the timetable schedule.
• These rules do not respect which train is the all-Pullman streamliner and which train is the maid of all work,  All trains are treated the same as to superiority and inferiority, regardless of equipment.

Lat's use a real example.  Santa Fe used to run No.124, the Grand Canyon, in sections when there were large numbers of tour groups traveling. Between La Junta, Colorado and Raton, New Mexico, the railroad was single track with automatic block signals and was operated by timetable and train order.  Eastward trains  were superior to westward trains of the same class.  Eastward Train 124, the Grand Canyon, and westward Train 7, the Fast Mail and Express, were First Class trains, scheduled by timetable, to meet between La Junta and Raton, at the siding called Bloom.  No.7 was the inferior train by direction, so it was required to take siding at Bloom, for No.124, the superior train.  When both trains were on time, that was the daily meet at Bloom.  

So, let's say it's a normal day and both trains are on time.  But No.124 has a second section consisting of a baggage car, a dining car, a lounge, and several Pullmans full of tour groups heading home to east coast destinations after a California vacation and a side trip up the Grand Canyon District.

• First No.124 -- the normal daily train -- leaves Raton on time at 3:50 PM, displaying green signals.  (Flags and Class lights)
• Second No.124 leaves Raton at 4:00 PM, 10 minutes late, displaying no signals.
• No.7 leaves La Junta on time at 5:15 PM, displaying no signals.

Now the two trains are headed toward each other on single track scheduled to meet at Bloom, at 5:45.

Approaching the scheduled meeting point, No.7 reduces speed and stops at the east switch of Bloom.  The Fireman lines the switch  for movement onto the siding, and No. 7 pulls into the clear and stops in the siding for the Flagman to restore the switch for main track movement.  This movement is required to be  completed 5 minutes before the scheduled departure of No.124 at Delhi, the next station in advance.  Time shown for No.124 at Delhi is 5:40, so No.7 has to be clear of the main track and have the switch lined back at no later than 5:35.

At 5:45, right on time, First 124, displaying green signals, approaches at high speed, sounds one long and two short on the whistle* to call the attention of the train in the siding that No.124 has a following section, and roars through Bloom on time, at 5:45.  The Engineer of No.7, sitting in the siding, sounds two short on the whistle after First 124 whistles "green signals" to acknowledge that he is aware that he must wait until a following section of No. 124 passes Bloom and is displaying no signals.  10 minutes later, second 124 meets No.7 and displays no signals and does not whistle.  All sections of No. 124 have now passed Bloom, and the 3 big Alco passenger diesels of No.7 clear their throats and send black smoke skyward as the Fast Mail and Express pulls out onto the main track through the spring switch and continues its westward journey, hoping to make up the ten minutes of time lost while waiting for second 124.

So, as you can see, it's the first section of a regular train that observes the timetable leaving time at each station.  Following sections run late on the timetable.  Often, when following sections are more than ten minutes apart, the Dispatcher will intervene and change the meeting point for some or all of the following sections by train order, if the train required to take siding at the scheduled meeting point would otherwise be excessively delayed.

*  For rules purposes, it's "the whistle" regardless of whether the device mounted on the locomotive is a steam whistle, air horn, or Hancock air whistle.

@Number 90 posted:

*  For rules purposes, its "the whistle" regardless of whether the device mounted on the locomotive is a steam whistle, air horn, or Hancock air whistle.

Good thing the ATSF didn't run these fancy new LRVs that run across town in Phoenix now.  They have a synthesized horn and bell sound that sounds like a crossover between a Hyundai and very sad dog. That would have been well outside of the rules for a "whistle".

More fascinating info.  I've ridden that section of track many times on the Southwest Chief and always enjoyed counting the semaphores still in use at the time.

Thank you, Number 90, for that very clear description of the meet at Bloom and for confirmation of my assumption that the first section runs on "the advertised," while the following section (or sections) runs late on the schedule.

It seems to me I have read that the GN's silk trains running  out of Seattle in years past often ran in multiple sections, but I suppose (maybe I am wrong?) that freights generally did not run in sections.

On railroads like Santa Fe, which preferred to run freight trains as Extras, there were only rare instances of branch line trains -- which, on Santa Fe, were sometimes carded as Second Class trains -- running in sections.

However, freight trains could run in sections on railroads which had timetable scheduled freight trains.  I can't list for certain, the railroads that did have scheduled freight trains, but there were several which did it.  I have seen timetables that show scheduled freight trains, typically Second Class trains, but -- if I recall correctly -- one or two red ball fast freights were First Class trains.  (I think Texas & Pacific ran one.)  Remember, that trains were superior by right, class, and direction, in that order.

To be specific, any train with a timetable schedule could be run in sections.  

These scans from a 10/17/1971 Frisco ETT for the Oklahoma and Chickasha subs show a variety of class designations for the same train, yet differing from sub to sub.   It is curious to note how QLA (the train you did NOT want to delay) was carded to come across the Chickasha sub in four hours while road switcher 3211 was given approx. 7.5 hours to make his run, and designated as the same class.

  Now look at the Oklahoma sub where QLA is listed as First class, as are all westward trains.

    Also note how westward trains were superior to eastward on the Chickasha sub.

CTB (California-Tulsa-Birmingham) came off the A.T.&S.F. and onto the Frisco system at Floydada, TX (and after 1973, Avard, OK).  The westward hotshots changing roads at the same locations were QLA and QSF.  What I lack here is an early 1970's Santa Fe ETT showing class designation for these same trains on the Floydada-Plainview-Amarillo (or Lubbock, TX) segments.  I think I will make that a project for 2024.

The book Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail contains a photograph (page 290) of seven sections of the California Limited all lined up on parallel tracks behind seven 3700-class Mountains awaiting departure from Los Angeles in the 1930s.

Author E. D. Worley also notes that on at least once occasion, the California Limited ran as 22 sections westbound and 23 sections eastbound on the same day. There was no effective competition from airlines or automobiles in the '30s for transcontinental travel!