Western Maryland 4-8-4 Potomac

Photoguy posted:

Was there... Is there a Western Maryland 4-8-4 Potomac in 3 rail?

No. Only in 2-Rail SCALE, i.e. brass.

I am a fan of Western Maryland Steam and earl Diesel Era to model and I was just wondering if anyone ever made one. Just kind of thinking out load... The real locomotive was just stunning.

I agree with what Hot Water says. Henry Bultmann made one in 2 rail only. I have a model of # 1412, the last one built, and I also have a black and white photo of myself in the cab of the real # 1412. They sold originally for $ 2500 and I paid $ 1600 for mine.

Photoguy posted:

Was there... Is there a Western Maryland 4-8-4 Potomac in 3 rail? I am a fan of Western Maryland Steam and earl Diesel Era to model and I was just wondering if anyone ever made one. Just kind of thinking out load... The real locomotive was just stunning.

You probably already know, but MTH did make a beautiful WM 4-6-6-4 model. Also, some were offered in non-WM lettering (for example, Southern Rwy, which did have articulateds, but no Challengers), so a re-decaling would get you there.

I have been surprised that Maryland native Mike Wolf has not offered from MTH, in 3RO, both the WM "Potomacs" and the well-known big WM 2-10-0. Seems like MTH would have adequate tooling as basic mechanical starting points for both, as they have offered big 4-8-4's and the PRR 2-10-0 in Premier.

I agree D500. I have the WM Scale Challenger and it is stunning as well as WM #6 Shay. I also have the Premier H9 2-8-0 and a Rail King 2-8-8-2 with numerous other locos and early era diesels.

My Pride & Joy is my Weaver Gold Line 4-6-2 Pacific in number 202 which is the number of the static display locomotive at the City Park in Hagerstown, Maryland. I have 9 MTH Western Maryland 70ft Passenger Cars to go with it. It makes for one beautiful train!

Hopefully one day MTH or Lionel will make a Potomac... 3rd Rail are you listening also...

D500 posted:

Seems like MTH would have adequate tooling as basic mechanical starting points for both, as they have offered big 4-8-4's and the PRR 2-10-0 in Premier.

Hm.  They might be able to reuse the chassis from the Reading T1, and the driving wheels are pretty close.  But I'm not holding my breath... I think the last newly-tooled steam loco MTH made in North American O gauge was the L-4 Mohawk, and that was around 2009.  Can you believe it's been 11 years already!?

For so long we took newly-tooled items for granted.  But the demographics and economics are now both against us.  Remember, there were no new die-cast locos in O Gauge from the 2055 Hudson in 1953 until the ill-fated LTI Northerns in 1987.  Nothing new for 34 years!!  And the Northerns weren't even all-new, they reused the Berkshire chassis.  Unless there are major advances in computer technology, 3-D printing and milling, etc., the only Potomac we're gonna see in 3-rail O will be brass.  So if you really want it, try to line up 10 or 20 of your friends and appeal to Scott Mann.  My $.02.

Ted S posted:

  So if you really want it, try to line up 10 or 20 of your friends and appeal to Scott Mann.  My $.02.

Sorry but this is not going to happen. We need to do 100 steam locomotives in 2 and 3 rail combined and the 2 rail market is tapped out with the Bultmann model.

R.Heil  -  Sunset Models / 3 rd Rail

I can still dream... Thank, R. Heil.

I thought MTH made one about 5 years ago? I sware my local shop had one.

Stinky1 posted:

I thought MTH made one about 5 years ago? I sware my local shop had one.

They may have had a 4-8-4 from another railroad that was lettered Western Maryland. The only authentic model was the Henry Bultmann 2 rail model.

Ok, I remember thinking of buying it but it wasn't 100 percent accurate. The headlight was in the wrong location. It was numbered 202 the same as the one in City Park Hagerstown.

The WM # 202 in Hagerstown is a Pacific. 202 is a correct number for a WM Pacific even though the model is not accurate. The real 202 is an oil burner.

rheil posted:

Sorry but this is not going to happen. We need to do 100 steam locomotives in 2 and 3 rail combined and the 2 rail market is tapped out with the Bultmann model.

Gee that's a pretty hard shutdown.  Let's forget about 2-rail for now, as you said they have other choices.  If the OP came to Scott with 20 signatures on a petition for a 3-rail model, perhaps he would be willing to post the project for reservations.  Show some photos of the handsome, rugged prototype.  Perhaps 80 more Hi-railers would see it and commit to buy, thus the project would be approved.

I would say that's a more likely scenario in the next 20 years than new tooling for a die-cast model.  A Lionel "brass hybrid" could also be a possibility, based on the Reading T1 chassis.  Hopefully they would tool up new driving wheels, because both runs of T1s are rolling around on Milwaukee S3 drivers :-(

Rich it's your business, but I'm disappointed that you're not more open to ideas and feedback from potential customers.

One difficulty in using the chassis from other 4-8-4's is that the WM 4-8-4 had 69" drivers, probably the lowest ever employed on a 4-8-4.

Ted S posted:

rheil posted:

Sorry but this is not going to happen. We need to do 100 steam locomotives in 2 and 3 rail combined and the 2 rail market is tapped out with the Bultmann model.

Gee that's a pretty hard shutdown.  Let's forget about 2-rail for now, as you said they have other choices.  If the OP came to Scott with 20 signatures on a petition for a 3-rail model, perhaps he would be willing to post the project for reservations.  Show some photos of the handsome, rugged prototype.  Perhaps 80 more Hi-railers would see it and commit to buy, thus the project would be approved.

OK, point taken. So how about YOU coming up with at least 20 reservations/order for 3-Rail models. Then, there STILL must be sufficient reservations/orders from the 2-Rail SCALE modelers.

I would say that's a more likely scenario in the next 20 years than new tooling for a die-cast model.  A Lionel "brass hybrid" could also be a possibility, based on the Reading T1 chassis.  Hopefully they would tool up new driving wheels, because both runs of T1s are rolling around on Milwaukee S3 drivers :-(

Rich it's your business, but I'm disappointed that you're not more open to ideas and feedback from potential customers.

Except,,,,,,,,,,there really is NOT enough "potential customers" for either a Western Maryland 4-8-4 nor a Leigh Valley 4-8-4 (both being fairly similar prototypes) in either 3-Rail or 2-Rail SCALE! Such is the realities of the current business.

"Photo" - Or break down and buy a Car & Locomotive Shop/Herny Bultmann version. The model is superb and they do not seem to sell too well on the secondary market, so you can probably get a "reasonable" price. I own one - it is one of the best models in my collection. 

Mark the Reading T1 had 70" drivers.  If we're talking hi-rail, that's probably close enough.  Many products have been sold with disparities in driver diameter greater than 1".  Unfortunately, as I pointed out, the recent Lionel T1s apparently reused drivers from their 2011 Milwaukee S3.  They're a little too big and the wrong (Alco) boxpok pattern.  If they made correct T1 drivers IMO they would be a pretty close match for those of the WM loco.

The C&LS model is strictly 2-rail.  As we've established here on the forum, there is no easy way to convert a 2-rail loco to 3-rail (it's difficult but possible to go the other way.)  In most cases converting one's layout from 3-rail to 2-rail isn't possible either, due to the greater curvature, etc.  So for our purposes the C&LS model might as well not exist.

Easy Jack!  I'm not the original poster.  I was only making a constructive suggestion of steps he might take to make his dream a reality.  If Scott gets 100 reservations for a 3-rail model, I would guess that's enough to be profitable- who says a 2-rail version has to be made for every 3rd Rail project?  This one would be a logical exception to his usual 80/20 mix.

Bottom line if the OP wants a Potomac he needs to start lining up signatures.  Or learn Chinese and start his own import business!

Ted - Ha!  You're right - thought the Reading locomotives had taller drivers! I only suggested the C&LS model as the OP seems to be quite enamored with the WM 4-8-4. Oh well. There are two schools of thought on the WM J1's - some say ugly, some say rugged and handsome. I'm in the second camp. But the first camp's existence  will probably preclude success in bringing in a 2nd run of these locomotives in 3R.

Sign me up for a 3 rail Potomac correctly done.  A 4-8-4 (of whatever lineage) painted Western Maryland doesn't cut it.

The C&LS model is strictly 2-rail. As we've established here on the forum, there is no easy way to convert a 2-rail loco to 3-rail (it's difficult but possible to go the other way).

I did not know we established that.  I posted a conversion a couple years ago.  A forumite sent me a Lobaugh Berkshire, two rail, and a Williams Mike, three rail, and I converted it for the privilege of keeping the Lobaugh mechanism.  I might be persuaded to do the same for the far more exotic Bultmann - marry it to the T1 mechanism.  I get to keep all the leftover parts.

Be a shame to cut up Henry's fine work, but that is at least an "easy way."

Guys and gals,

Scott needs to do a minimum run of 100 steam locomotives to satisfy the builder(s). The price would be $2000 or so for one of these. Since the exquisite Henry Bultmann model (Car and Locomotive Shop) is available from time to time for less than that in 2 rail I see virtually no sales in 2 rail. I paid $1600 for mine. The last one I saw at auction went for $850 plus the 10% buyers premium.

Before design and production on a steam locomotive begins there needs to be at least 70 -75 reservations. I just don't see that happening in 3 rail. We have several locomotives with 50 +/- reservations and nothing is being done on those models. I may be wrong but I have worked for Sunset / 3rd Rail for 25 years now and have a reasonable feel for what will sell. I have NEVER had a single person at the York TCA meets ask for a WM Potomac.

Now some might ask "why don't you advertise it"?  Good question and here is the answer; advertising costs are not inexpensive so we attempt to advertise what we have received numerous requests for through e-mail and at the shows we attend.

I am not attempting to be negative folks - just realistic. It would be great if we could sell 100 of these locomotives. But we currently have a tough time selling 100 of any steam locomotive.

Trying to convert the C&LS Potomac to 3R would be like taking a chain saw to Michelangelo's Pieta.

There was talk here on the forum some years ago that Weaver was considering the WM Potomac after the Lackawanna Pocono run. (Some thought it would just be a repaint of the Pocono). Of course it wasn't to be.

MTH, we could always hope.  

3rd Rail, as stated above by R.Heil. So the WM fans/modelers need to show themselves, not just in words {this was part of the reason Weaver did not move forward, to my understanding}.

The C&LS model, exquisite! (Out of my price range at the time and I didn't want something simply sitting on a shelf).

I would still love to see it in three rail, and will patiently wait and see. (And, for the I-2 Decapod.) {D500 - Overland did this one in 2 rail quite a few years back as well}.

The one I was thinking of is a 4-8-2 not a 4-8-4. I'm wrong.

@bob2 unless I'm mistaken, that conversion involved bolting a Williams 3R chassis and cylinder saddle under a Lobaugh boiler.  It was a lucky coincidence that everything lined up.

I remember all the grousing from the two-rail guys about the Atlas 0-6-0.  It was never good enough for them because they knew that deep down, it was fundamentally a hi-rail loco.  Among other things, 3-rail locos must have a narrower chassis and/or a wider cylinder saddle to accommodate the wider driving wheel tires (traditionally about 0.215" vs. 0.145" or less for scale.)  Going from Hi-rail to scale, you could cut down the wide tires, make new ones, or swap in 2-rail wheelsets.  You would probably have to add washers or spacers between the back of the wheels and the frame to take up the slop and keep everything centered.  Such a conversion requires a lot of skilled machine work, but it's doable.

Going the other way is very difficult or impossible.  Even Joe Foehrkolb refused to do it.  A loco born exclusively as a 2-rail model will start out with narrower wheel treads and a correspondingly wider frame.  Even if you get the 0.215" treads with pizza cutter flanges to straddle that chassis and still fit within the gauge, you would have to redo the cylinder saddle, valve gear, etc.  Major problems.

To the folks who keep mentioning the C&LS model: it's irrelelvant whether it sells for $2 or $2000.  It's not operable on any hi-rail layout, and since it began life as a pure 2-rail model it can't be converted in situ to 3-rail.  Perhaps you could bolt a Williams J chassis under the WM boiler, and some people would be happy with that.  Personally I wouldn't, and I can't imagine that such a conversion would be cost effective.  As I said before, it might as well not exist and doesn't affect the economics of an exclusively 3-rail production run, except that we shouldn't expect our 2-rail brethren to bolster the reservation count.

I'm starting to think that this big, rawboned, and handsome 4-8-4 could be a future Lionel Brass Hybrid riding on the N&W J or Reading T1 chassis.  In either case, newly tooled driving wheels are a must!

If anyone is taking reservations, I'm in. I discussed the Potomac with MTH, Weaver and Sunset (3rd Rail) at York several years ago and told them I would like one. I have approximately 200 locomotives and haven't purchased a high end locomotive since the Vision Line Big Boy but I would purchase a Potomac.  

mark s posted:

One difficulty in using the chassis from other 4-8-4's is that the WM 4-8-4 had 69" drivers, probably the lowest ever employed on a 4-8-4.

Low, indeed - but the N&W J class 4-8-4 only had 70" drivers, so there is another possible chassis donor. And, as mentioned above, that prototype 1" difference is absolutely imperceptible in a 1:48 model, assuming that the 3RO (or any format, actually) model actually had scale 70" drivers anyway, which is unlikely.

Those fat, deep flanges kind of keep us humble in the 3RO driver size department.

Anyway, just suggesting possibilities. I wouldn't buy the Potomac anyway - but that big WM 2-10-0 which MTH (or Lionel) should have made already? That  would make me go "Hmmmm....".

Well, count me in for ANY newly tooled Western Maryland locomotives. 3rd Rail, I have a lot of reservations in at the moment and this would force me to add to them

@Andrew B. posted:

Well, count me in for ANY newly tooled Western Maryland locomotives. 3rd Rail, I have a lot of reservations in at the moment and this would force me to add to them

@Former Member posted:

If anyone is taking reservations, I'm in. I discussed the Potomac with MTH, Weaver and Sunset (3rd Rail) at York several years ago and told them I would like one. I have approximately 200 locomotives and haven't purchased a high end locomotive since the Vision Line Big Boy but I would purchase a Potomac. 

Count me in for one too.

I would be interested in a Potomac.

I would be interested in a Potomac as well.

photograph of the 1408

95 ft long in total

255 psi operating pressure with 26.5 " cylinders

70,951 pounds rated tractive effort according to steam locomotives .com, which is pretty humble compared to a SD70ace t4 from today, but is slightly more than a Reading T-1.

Looks like Weaver tossed around the idea of making a WM  Potomac around 2012, I guess that never panned out.

Looks like a C&O Greenbrier could be a good candidate to build into the 1408 from the pic John posted above,....driver diameter can’t be that far off in O scale,...

Pat

Resurrected thread, I see. And, sadly, I guess that I see why MTH and its Maryland-born founder never offered the big WM 2-10-0. The posts in this discussion have very much been centered on the Potomac 4-8-4; I may be the only one whose checkbook was open for the 2-10-0 and not the 4-8-4. I'm still surprised, Mike.

Lots of 4-8-4's around; fewer Decapods, even in real life. That WM 2-10-0 had more juice than many (most?) articulateds - like a few D&H 2-8-0's - another niche loco that would have sold anyway, I do believe - if for no other reason than its funk-factor. But, that's another thread.

All of which really begs the question as to why MTH did indeed offer the big WM 2-8-0. I have one (in NYC, granted). They were popular.

Whats funny I suppose is that MTH already has 1/3 (or so) of the tooling needed.  They shared the same tender as the M-2, same for the cab, wheels, and 'rock knocker' pilot.  The basic engine was also run by the D&RG.  and I'm sure a couple other fantasy schemes could be thought of, say B&O.

@WM1400 posted:

  and I'm sure a couple other fantasy schemes could be thought of, say B&O.

I like the B&O idea, maybe style them like the later P7 Pacifics with the disc drivers.

@D500 posted:

Resurrected thread, I see. And, sadly, I guess that I see why MTH and its Maryland-born founder never offered the big WM 2-10-0. The posts in this discussion have very much been centered on the Potomac 4-8-4; I may be the only one whose checkbook was open for the 2-10-0 and not the 4-8-4. I'm still surprised, Mike.

Lots of 4-8-4's around; fewer Decapods, even in real life. That WM 2-10-0 had more juice than many (most?) articulateds - like a few D&H 2-8-0's - another niche loco that would have sold anyway, I do believe - if for no other reason than its funk-factor. But, that's another thread.

I didn’t know much about WM’s I-2 until your reply prompted some reading.  I’m down for one of those too.

I also very much want to see a WM J1 Potomac get made!  This is one of my all time favorite steam locomotives and it would be so awesome to have it in my roster being a rivet counter modeler of Western Maryland‘s Late Steam Era/early diesel transition!

Currently I’ve been talking to a few guys on the MTH buy sell and trade page on Facebook that are very interested in seeing a J1 Potomac get made and also know lots of other modelers that are hard-core Western Maryland fans that want to see one get made as well.