Western Maryland Scenic RR Photo Shoot

Good gosh...maybe I can help..

Ed

How to these events work, Ed?

Does WMSR just sell tickets and depend on the good will of all photographers out on the railroad that day to have one?  Or, do they transport photographers out to good photo locations with good lighting, and then make run-bys?  Do you expect the diesel locomotive to be their pristine GP30 in red and white?

I know from reading, that they did one of these in the fall, but it was on a day with several competing railroad events.  I hope this one sells out.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Yes a photo shoot. A totally meaningless experience for a guy with a family looking for something to do with his family. They will attract lots of non-revenue people who want to watch without paying anything. How about a sing-along to raise money? And maybe a small petting zoo for the kids at Frostburg? Chickens. A few lambs. A pony. Maybe a juggler and a magician and a folk singer. These people are in la-la land for foamers, running a big model railroad. Their website is a complete disaster, and they seem to think that bragging about the fact their cars are an authentic color will make the general public show up to ride. As Rich stated: they have not identified the general public as their target customers.

Tommy posted:

Yes a photo shoot . . . will attract lots of non-revenue people who want to watch without paying anything. and they seem to think that bragging about the fact their cars are an authentic color will make the general public show up to ride.

Well, Tommy, I can't speak for others, but I was raised to be honest and fair in all deals, so, if I go, I'll pay.  Surely there is some way to discourage freeloading.  And I, for one, appreciate the historic aspects of the Western Maryland, a very well-run regional railroad that is missed by many, and riding the WMSR is on my list of things to do before I get too old and feeble to do it.  Helmstetter's Curve is one of those legendary places like the Tehachapi Loop and Sullivan's Curve, but the ghost footprints of long-ago photographers, and cinders still lying there after being blasted out of the stacks of well-maintained WM steam engines, are all that would be there today were it not for the WMSR's existence.  

I guess I just don't see it the same way you do, except that train photography is not a good family activity, which I why I have always left the family at home when I have gone out to photograph trains.

When they were 11 and 13, I took two of my sons with me, and they threw rocks at all kinds of things, making me uneasy.  That same year I took them to Winterail and they sneaked whoopee cushions in.  No more after that.

They will indeed take folks out where there are good scenes, make runbys, etc.

Usual is passenger car at end of train with paying customers, drop off and shoot freight only runbys. I think one can plan on 501, subject to murphy's law, being the locomotive that will be used.

In the past the photo shoots they have had have been pretty well done.

Ed

Oh sure. Photo shoots are a good idea. But this is a taxpayer supported operation and the business plan is flawed. Museum type photo shoots are great - I go to them. But the rent has to be paid. And that is accomplished by revenue. And the universe of foamers ain't that big. I have to say, Thomas the tank engine doesn't turn me on, but he brings in the bucks and hundreds of smiling families. 

Number 90 posted:

Tommy posted:

Yes a photo shoot . . . will attract lots of non-revenue people who want to watch without paying anything. and they seem to think that bragging about the fact their cars are an authentic color will make the general public show up to ride.

Well, Tommy, I can't speak for others, but I was raised to be honest and fair in all deals, so, if I go, I'll pay.  Surely there is some way to discourage freeloading.

The good thing about Western Maryland Scenic is that most of the good photo locations are not easily accessible by road, so freeloading is minimal.  You spend more time making sure the trail is clear of joggers and bikers for the runbys.  The chasers will go from crossing to crossing, but since you won't be doing anything at them, its basically a non-issue for the participants.

There is an audience that will pay for a well run photo charter.  No, it's not a total solution to raising massive funds (which is what the railroad needs in this case), but there is some money to be made if done properly, and every little bit helps.

Number 90 posted:

How to these events work, Ed?

Does WMSR just sell tickets and depend on the good will of all photographers out on the railroad that day to have one?  Or, do they transport photographers out to good photo locations with good lighting, and then make run-bys?  Do you expect the diesel locomotive to be their pristine GP30 in red and white?

I know from reading, that they did one of these in the fall, but it was on a day with several competing railroad events.  I hope this one sells out.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Tom,

If done correctly, the organizer has the good spots planned with appropriate brush cut to accommodate the group size and sun angles taken into account.  There could be some "surprises" as well at certain spots--depends on what the organizer and/or railroad has planned for the day.

Basically, you'll have a coach or two on the train for transportation.  Those cars may or may not get dropped for the runbys.  You'll go to a pre-planned location, do a couple of runbys, move to the next spot and repeat.  Depending on group size and how the day progresses, a rough theory would be to expect 15-20 runbys at 8-10 locations.  Depending on what you are paying for and where, that number may vary greatly.  A recent charter at the Everett Railroad in Pennsylvania went from pre-sunrise to night, and the first day had 54 runbys.  We were all dragging by the end of that day!

It can be a fun day, and especially at Western Maryland, a lot of the good locations would require biking or hiking in on the trail to access them.  If you want a lot of good photos, the photo special is the way to do it.  You're paying for them to do the hard work for you.

I haven't seen the specifics, but I would think they would use the 501 in the circus colors as motive power again.  Makes sense to feature the new power.

KGDJPUBS has it exactly right.

And as I said above, the 501 will be used, she's in better shape than the 502

And Mike McMarvin, retired CSX locomotive engineer, who will no doubt run the photo shoot train,certainly would not run another locomotive than the 501, because it has his own personal Nathan five chime horns mounted!

Ed

645

Sir, check your email. If you have more problems, let me know!

Ed

$275 for diesel haulage ?............................really ??

Limey posted:

$275 for diesel haulage ?............................really ??

Sure! That's pretty inexpensive, when the steam charter/photo "specials" are generally well north of $500 per person.

Hot Water posted:

Limey posted:

$275 for diesel haulage ?............................really ??

Sure! That's pretty inexpensive, when the steam charter/photo "specials" are generally well north of $500 per person.

Note: these numbers basically are quoted for steam.  Diesel charters are less common, and generally less expensive.  The market is also harder to find since a lot of the hardcore photographers that will pay for a charter are often steam only.

$500 for one day would be extremely expensive for a one-day photo special.  Average (for steam) would be $200-250.  Sumpter Valley in Oregon is about $100 per day for about 35 people—which is a very good bargain.  Most expensive one I’ve ever heard of was Santa Fe 3751 at the Grand Canyon in 2002, which was $550 for one day.

At the same time, often times you will get a grouping of multiple days and/or nearby railroad to get the people to buy a ticket since the vast majority of your participants will be traveling a good distance to attend (flights, motels, and good add up quickly!).  So, $400+ for a weekend (or often, midweek) is getting to be more commonplace.

It basically boils down to what the railroad wants to change for the day to accommodate the organizer’s plan, and how many people you want on the line.  At that point, it’s a simple numbers game.

A lot of your serious photographers are willing to pay the premium for a smaller group just because of the flexibility you get—faster to load/unload (which saves a tremendous amount of time that can be used for runbys), you can get smaller locations that a larger group wouldn’t fit, etc.

In this case, I’m sure there is a “buffer” built in above the costs of running the trip, so that the railroad gets a profit that can go towards 1309.

Ed Mullan posted:

KGDJPUBS has it exactly right.

And as I said above, the 501 will be used, she's in better shape than the 502

And Mike McMarvin, retired CSX locomotive engineer, who will no doubt run the photo shoot train,certainly would not run another locomotive than the 501, because it has his own personal Nathan five chime horns mounted!

 

Ed

Ed, Mike's last name is McMarlin, at least that's what his e-mail says. I have ridden with him in 501 twice, and really enjoyed his stories of Sand Patch in the B&O/Chessie days.
The 4/2/2016 steam freight with #734 was $185 sans lunch, and included a shop tour after the photo session.
It was unfortunate that the engine broke down halfway through the trip, IIRC there was about 40 people on that trip.
Of course at that time there was no access to Frostburg, and the slide at Woodmont Hollow had not closed the line yet.

$275 for an all-day session doesn't sound unreasonable, especially given the night photography opportunity.

Tommy, you sound like Dennis on the York Forum with all kind of ideas about attracting the public with animals and such.  😀

I have no idea whatsoever who Dennis is and never heard of the York forum. I do know, that watching a turntable would occupy the attention of the average non-foamer for between three and five minutes and that something more is required for the WMSRR to attract the general public and pay operational expenses, let alone restoration of 1309. And photo shoots ain't enough. I would like to have seen another steam engine on static display on the team track that they ripped up across from the station for starters. There were many available for this purpose.

Tommy posted:

Yes a photo shoot. A totally meaningless experience for a guy with a family looking for something to do with his family. They will attract lots of non-revenue people who want to watch without paying anything. 

While I agree with your sentiment of looking for family activity, but geepers, for a one night activity they will pull in over $8,000 (if sold out) plus probably another thousand in caps and snacks.  That's not bad, really.  It's a one shot deal.

I've never done any of the charter things--mostly I like to catch trains "on the hoof."  For me, that's the whole challenge; I don't want someone else doing the creative part for me.   I also like to set up my own lights and select my own spots.  I photo the steam trains when I get a chance, and plan to do more in different parts of the country now that my kids are grown. I always make sure to buy some tickets even if I end up not using them, along with some souvenirs (hats, mugs.)  I know if I don't support these operations they won't be around!  And really, after travel expenses from half way across the country, fifty bucks isn't a big deal.  I would like to do a couple of these set up shoots of steamers inside a round house/shop.  What I want to do is shoot a period correct camera (such as my 1925 Gundlach Korona 5x7 and Tessar or Dagor lens) and get some unique shots!  I would leave my digital cameras at the hotel.  

Kent in SD

I set up a location for a commercial and we paid $73,000 for one day use of an office interior. And motion pictures aren't addressed in the WMSRR business plan.

Tommy posted:

I have no idea whatsoever who Dennis is and never heard of the York forum. I do know, that watching a turntable would occupy the attention of the average non-foamer for between three and five minutes

You would be totally surprised by how the "average family/public" is enthralled by an operating turntable! During each of the California State Railroad Museum "RailFair" events (1981, 1991, & 1999), the turntable got virtually continuous use with huge crowds of people watching it turn anything and everything. The same thing would happen in Portland, OR prior to the closing of the old SP Brooklyn Roundhouse & turntable. Whenever SP 4449 or SP&S 700 was going to operate, upon backing out of the roundhouse onto the turntable, a large group, many without cameras, came to watch he "spin on the table". Thus, the engine would be spun TWICE, just for the viewers!

As soon as funds are raised, the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation will be re-installing the old turntable from Brooklyn Shops, at the new Engine House location.

and that something more is required for the WMSRR to attract the general public and pay operational expenses, let alone restoration of 1309. And photo shoots ain't enough. I would like to have seen another steam engine on static display on the team track that they ripped up across from the station for starters. There were many available for this purpose.

It's simple..photo shoots are for railfans with cameras, with runbys ect, for them at premium prices.

For a family that wants to do something interesting and different, a ride behind a snorting, loud steam locomotive (and to watch how it gets turned on a special machine (turntable) it is well received. I've been around the WMSR for well over twenty years, talked to a lot of railfans, and a whole lot more non railfans that visited the WMSR.

My conclusion is that at around 40 bucks a pop for a regular seat is a good deal for a family. Seems to me that for the serious railfans, 275 bucks for a day and evening of shooting is also a good value.

Always a thrill for folks, many who have never seen a steam locomotive!

Ed