What are closure rails on a switch?

It's the rails that proceed the frog

Could you take a picture of a switch, then label all the parts?  I realize it's a lot of trouble, but sure would help. Thx in advance  TW

Here you go - Parts of a turnout.

wild mary posted:

Here you go - Parts of a turnout.

Thank you, thank you. Search is my friend!

Thank you for the diagram. Much appreciated.

Rr 

It's a good diagram, except that it shows both switch points tight against the stock rails.

The diagram also shows a measurement called "vertex distance." I did not know what that meant until I looked at my reference books. The "point" (or tapered part of the switch rail)  is usually planed or ground to 1/8" in thickness at its end because it is mechanically impractical to reduce the thickness of the switch rail to a theoretical knife's edge (or zero thickness) where it abuts the stock rail when closed. This cut-back point is called the "actual point of switch," whereas the "theoretical point of switch" is the point where the gage lines would coincide. The "vertex distance" is the distance from the actual "point of switch" to the "theoretical point of switch" where the gage lines of the stock rail and switch rail would meet (the "vertex"). This point (the vertex) fixes the location of the bend in the turnout stock rail necessary to insure the switch rail being in close contact with the stock rail throughout the tapered portion. Similarly with the point of the frog, which is cut back from the geometric point of intersection of the gage lines because it is impractical to bring the frog to a knife's edge (zero thickness). This information was taken from the 1948 edition of "Railway Engineering and Maintenance Cyclopedia" (Simmons-Boardman Pub. Co.)

I don't quite understand the "switch length" as indicated above?  

Switch length = point length

The points and only the points are in reality the "Switch".

The entire assembly including the entire product when you buy a Ross #6 or an  Atlas #7.5 or what ever is the "Turnout".

Like the terms engine, locomotive, prime mover & lashup we are all guilty of misusing labels, not realizing what we are saying. 

Misuse a term long enough and it becomes a defacto standard. 

Somewhat like if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes perceived as the truth

Tom Tee posted:

 

... Like the terms engine, locomotive, prime mover & lashup we are all guilty of misusing labels, not realizing what we are saying. 

Misuse a term long enough and it becomes a defacto standard. 

Somewhat like if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes perceived as the truth

Very true.  Back in the day (some 50 years ago), I recall hearing lots of folks using the term "switch track" rather than turnout.  Over time, "switch track" fell out of favor, so we tend to not hear much of that misnomer anymore.  But every now and then I do hear it, and can't help but smile just a little.

David

Thanks -- I should have added that information for clarity.

Bobby Ogage's diagram lists on part as the "hell" block.  I believe that should be "heel" block.

Chuck

Rockyroad posted:

I've seen threads related to wiring the "closure-rails" on atlas switches, but I am not certain what they are referring too.

I don't think we've answered Rocky's question pertaining to wiring an Atlas switch.  I assume Rocky is talking about a 3 rail switch since it was posted on this forum.

The issue with the closure rails on a 3 rail switch is the center rail pickup roller (HOT) on an engine or car rolls over the closure rails (COMMON like outside rails), so to keep from shorting these rails are not powered.  Take a look at this FasTrack switch and follow along the center rails and you can see how they cross the closure rails.

The center rail gap as it crosses the closure rail is normally not an issue, especially on engines/cars that have more than one pickup roller.  However, on long switches such as the Atlas #8 this gap can be large and under certain situations the engine can lose power going over the switch.

To fix this, the closure rail needs to be powered via the HOT side of the transformer.  Depending on how the switch is set, this would cause a short if the HOT power was on the closure rail all the time.  So to make this work the HOT power to the closure rail must be turned on or off depending on switch position.  To turn the power on and off each closure rail, or more accurately switch the power between the straight and curved closure rails as needed to provide power to the center pickup roller, a relay is used.  Below is a diagram showing Z-Stuff electronics and how their DZ-1008 relay is used to power the closure rails.

The relay gets center rail power from the light blue wire and depending on the position of the switch machine, sends that power to one of the two closure rails (dashed blue wire and gray wire).  If the switch is set straight, the power is sent to the curved closure rail.  If the switch is set to turn out, the power is sent to the straight closure rail.

Keep in mind for most turnout installations "wiring the closure-rails" is not necessary. 

Anyway, I think this is what Rocky was asking about.

CAPPilot posted:

Rockyroad posted:

I've seen threads related to wiring the "closure-rails" on atlas switches, but I am not certain what they are referring too.

I don't think we've answered Rocky's question pertaining to wiring an Atlas switch.  I assume Rocky is talking about a 3 rail switch since it was posted on this forum.

 

 

Sure we have unless you're referring to a different post.  Rocky asked about closure rails and nothing else.  Closure rails are the same on any switch be it 2 or 3 rail.

Yes, the original poster simply asked for a definition of "closure rails."

Closure. Everybody wants closure these days.

I would like to thank CAPPOLIT for his fine explanation related to wiring the closure rails. Though I didn't specifically ask for wiring information, it is information I was planning to ask in a later post.

Thanks for all the responses and diagrams...best Forum on the internet!!! 

Turnout? Switch? Switch-track?

Finally, on May 30, 2017, the USPTO granted my patent (my 10th) on the "Non-Contact Method to Detect Model Railroad Turnout Point Position", No.  US 9,662,591 B2

To avoid any confusions, I wrote the very first paragraph of my patent as follows (note that I also included electrical switches):

[0001] This invention relates in general to model railroad switch tracks or turnouts, to the detection of the position of said turnout movable rails, also called switch points or simply points, the corresponding train route, and to the feedback of the position of said movable rails or points to the model railroad operator and to the model railroad control system. [NOTE: To avoid confusion with an electrical ‘switch’, the term ‘turnout’ will solely be used henceforth to mean a railroad switch or switch track.]

Alex

We had a few folks pick the point of the switch were as it was not hand thrown completely .The handle would be almost fully down but not and reason why when breaking in they always told us throw it then step down on the handle.

Sometimes the lead truck would wind up on the ground and or damage to the points of switch.

During heavy snows in Chicago the maintainers would have to go around the yards digging out the switches was that way before the switch heaters were installed.

Retired Member ATU Local 308

Ingeniero No1 posted:

Turnout? Switch? Switch-track?

Finally, on May 30, 2017, the USPTO granted my patent (my 10th) on the "Non-Contact Method to Detect Model Railroad Turnout Point Position", No.  US 9,662,591 B2

To avoid any confusions, I wrote the very first paragraph of my patent as follows (note that I also included electrical switches):

[0001] This invention relates in general to model railroad switch tracks or turnouts, to the detection of the position of said turnout movable rails, also called switch points or simply points, the corresponding train route, and to the feedback of the position of said movable rails or points to the model railroad operator and to the model railroad control system. [NOTE: To avoid confusion with an electrical ‘switch’, the term ‘turnout’ will solely be used henceforth to mean a railroad switch or switch track.]

Alex

Congrats Alex.  Regards,  Pat B.

Everything you wanted to know, but were afraid to ask, about a railroad switch. Also

has links to other terms.

Joe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_switch

lpb007 posted:

Ingeniero No1 posted:

Turnout? Switch? Switch-track?

Finally, on May 30, 2017, the USPTO granted my patent (my 10th) on the "Non-Contact Method to Detect Model Railroad Turnout Point Position", No.  US 9,662,591 B2

To avoid any confusions, I wrote the very first paragraph of my patent as follows (note that I also included electrical switches):

[0001] This invention relates in general to model railroad switch tracks or turnouts, to the detection of the position of said turnout movable rails, also called switch points or simply points, the corresponding train route, and to the feedback of the position of said movable rails or points to the model railroad operator and to the model railroad control system. [NOTE: To avoid confusion with an electrical ‘switch’, the term ‘turnout’ will solely be used henceforth to mean a railroad switch or switch track.]

Alex

Congrats Alex.  Regards,  Pat B.

Thank you, Pat!

The previous nine patents were written by the company's attorneys where I was employed. I did this one mostly on my own, and although not the most complex, it is most rewarding.

Alex

Alex, have you seen the video of how big players have gotten the USPTO to reverse approved patents on a large scale?