What are the rules for mixed passenger and freight consists?

Rules????????

The rules are, "There ain't no rules!"  

Impossible load?  

Sounds like the OP put together an accommodation train, a secondary passenger train made up of a mix of coaches/sleepers with plenty of head-end cars.  These allowed the flagship trains on the same route to make fewer stops and have a faster schedule.  This assumes the boxcar is an express car, which seems correct for the way its painted.

Its your RR !!  You create the rules

R50B were only on the PRR.

That said, they did run off line.  They did have passenger steam and signal lines, so they did run as head end cars on passenger trains.  In SF case, they did not show up on trains like the SUPER CHIEF.  If you are doing ATSF, check possible consist lists for passenger plus Mail and Express trains.

I do not think the SF had any head end equipment based on refers and box cars painted silver.

The SF modeling and historical group might be of some help.

Roving, I like the R50Bs, too!  Clyde at Stockyard Express did a special run of them in NKP and I just missed out.  I’m hoping he makes them again because, like you, I think they look great at the front of a passenger train. As to the “rules” for using them, I haven’t a clue....

Pennsylvania Railroad R50b cars were also used to ship clean, dry shipments, such as newspapers and magazines, across the country.  While not as prevalent as the X-29 express boxcar they were seen on many other roads.

Roving Sign, are your MTH R50b cars painted in SF colors?  I checked and MTH produced five different R50bs in SF colors, so if that is what you have that would make a great train.  And it is your railroad, so run them the way you want.

Railroad owned express reefers and boxcars would be intermixed with REA reefers to move shipments across the U.S. . As was mentioned above, many railroads kept these shipments off the crack trains, instead running on locals or secondary trains. Makes sense, since many of these express shipments went to smaller depots not serviced by the name trains.

You have the beginnings of a nice local, just add a REA reefer or two along with the R50b cars or maybe an express baggage car. Depending on the timeframe, add some piggyback flats onto to the rear like the Seaboard and Southern did during the late 50s, early 60s. Make sure it stops at every station!

I always appreciate the knowledge shared on this forum. . .

L.I.TRAIN posted:

Its your RR !!  You create the rules

 

 

Never a helpful response.

He is asking for prototype practice advice, not a statement on property rights.

Freight makes money, passengers tag along

Rules? There ain't no stinkin' rules.  If it feels good , do it.

I always thought the stock car, with hogs, running right in front of the diner car was a nice touch. "Yeah, the bacon is fresh, why do you ask?"

As far as I know, Amtrak still has express freight service on the NE Corridor, so it's not unusual to see a Regional or Clocker sporting an Amtrak boxcar or three.  

Plus, there's the "cabbage":  A locomotive with the prime mover and internals removed and the space converted to baggage accommodation.  The cab remains intact for train operation purposes.   

Mitch 

The only rule that I know of for express boxcars is that, on railroads that had maximum authorized passenger speeds of 90 to 100 MPH, passenger trains containing "freight equipment" were limited to 70 to 80 MPH.  That shouldn't be a problem in O-gauge.  

Express reefers (which actually had simple passenger car trucks) were allowed the same maximum speed as other heavyweight ("Madison") cars.  On some roads, only lightweight (streamliner) cars were allowed the full maximum passenger train speed.

How about some general rules for mixed freights.

Mixed freights were used where passenger traffic was too low to justify a separate passenger train.  As mentioned above, the most likely type of passenger cars used were combines placed at the end of the train and substituted for the caboose.  This made it easy for the combine to be left on the mainline while the engine switched the freight cars.

The freight cars were usually the priority so whenever they needed to be spotted the passengers would have to wait until the freight cars were switched.  This meant that the passenger car needed to be in front of or behind the freight cars.

Mixed freight passenger cars usually had their own heat (stove), so could be either in front of or behind the freight cars.  If the passenger car did not have its own heat, then it needed to be right behind the engine/tender for steam heat.  This was required because there were no steam lines on freight cars. If the passenger car was behind the engine, that may have required the passenger car stay with the engine to spot the cars.  How is that for a rough ride.

Lionel's attempt at a mixed train from 1994:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...7:g:adcAAOSwvbdZASEg

Peter

Some 1:1 scale examples:

And then, of course, there are just plain mixed up trains...  

Mitch 

One could consider the AT, both private and Amtrak, mixes trains.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

One could consider the AT, both private and Amtrak, mixes trains.

AT?  

Mitch 

This was something they do for Narrow Gauge Railroads 

The only truly non-prototype issue that I see in your current consist is the observation car.  As stated above, freight was not handled in "crack" passenger trains of the sort that would rate an observation car.  I'm sure there were occasions when a train with an obs carried express but it was certainly not the norm and the ATSF was the sine qua non when it came to crack passenger trains.

However, exceptions can be made to transport an Iron Lung to save a life ...

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LTbay8TZhM

Well lets think about this. Would the passengers have to sit and wait for the RR to declassify the freight when they arrive at the destination? I Know there are no rules but the whole thing for one doesn't look right and it makes no sense to me Just sayin. Nick

Glad to hear I am not totally off base running 4-5 mixed freight cars between the loco and the passenger cars. Good thread.

rockstars1989 posted:

Well lets think about this. Would the passengers have to sit and wait for the RR to declassify the freight when they arrive at the destination? I Know there are no rules but the whole thing for one doesn't look right and it makes no sense to me Just sayin. Nick

It made good sense for many years with the timetable padded to accommodate switching:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_train

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpCZnBoQ368

CAPPilot posted:

How about some general rules for mixed freights.

Mixed freights were used where passenger traffic was too low to justify a separate passenger train.  As mentioned above, the most likely type of passenger cars used were combines placed at the end of the train and substituted for the caboose.  This made it easy for the combine to be left on the mainline while the engine switched the freight cars.

The freight cars were usually the priority so whenever they needed to be spotted the passengers would have to wait until the freight cars were switched.  This meant that the passenger car needed to be in front of or behind the freight cars.

Mixed freight passenger cars usually had their own heat (stove), so could be either in front of or behind the freight cars.  If the passenger car did not have its own heat, then it needed to be right behind the engine/tender for steam heat.  This was required because there were no steam lines on freight cars. If the passenger car was behind the engine, that may have required the passenger car stay with the engine to spot the cars.  How is that for a rough ride.

If the passenger car was also used as the caboose, the usual case on mixed trains, it had to be on the rear of the train.  I saw many mixed trains in the 50's/60's but never one with the passenger car behind the engine.  

In Virginia, there was the Virginia Creeper that ran from Abington to Whitetop. 

N&W Class M steam, local freight, one passenger car, one RPO/Baggage car. From what I understand, the passenger and RPO cars were "regulars" on this train. The 475 at Strasburg is one of the Ms that saw service on the Creeper.

Here's a great recreation of the Creeper.

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

The only truly non-prototype issue that I see in your current consist is the observation car.  As stated above, freight was not handled in "crack" passenger trains of the sort that would rate an observation car.  I'm sure there were occasions when a train with an obs carried express but it was certainly not the norm and the ATSF was the sine qua non when it came to crack passenger trains.

However, exceptions can be made to transport an Iron Lung to save a life ...

             

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LTbay8TZhM

5 iron lungs if I recall the plot correctly, although I'm not sure 5 would have fit in the baggage compartment.  But the "Silver Streak" a.k.a. Pioneer Zephyr was still a passenger train, not a "mixed" and of course, the movie a pure fantasy.

"Terrible railroading, but swell melodrama," as one studio exec responded to a railfan complaining about the movie's accuracy.

As the real Pioneer Zephyr operated between Lincoln, Omaha (Nebraska,) Council Bluffs (Iowa,) St. Joseph (Missouri) and Kansas City, it probably did carry small amounts of "freight" in it's baggage section but would still not classify as a "mixed."

Rusty

AT = Auto Train.

Really like this PIC. 1959 In BC.... Notice the ditch lights when they were actually used as ditch lights  to light up the right of way around curves  , Something like a X  .   F units had then as well. Thx for posting.

Gregg posted:

Really like this PIC. 1959 In BC.... Notice the ditch lights when they were actually used as ditch lights  to light up the right of way around curves  , Something like a X  .   F units had then as well. Thx for posting.

Quite a consist.  Reefer, single and double door boxcars, caboose, passenger car and what looks like a former Pullman troop carrier on the end!   

Mitch 

Gregg posted:

Wonder why the caboose?  Maybe they dropped off the passenger cars at the last passenger stop and continued on further with the freight?  Union rules?  Anyway, nice photo.

Gilly@N&W posted:

In Virginia, there was the Virginia Creeper that ran from Abington to Whitetop. 

N&W Class M steam, local freight, one passenger car, one RPO/Baggage car. From what I understand, the passenger and RPO cars were "regulars" on this train. The 475 at Strasburg is one of the Ms that saw service on the Creeper.

Here's a great recreation of the Creeper.

These passenger cars are at the end of the train and therefore have their own heating systems.  While more noticeable on the Strasburg cars you can see the stove pipes on the Virginia Creeper cars.

Wonder why the caboose?  Maybe they dropped off the passenger cars at the last passenger stop and continued on further with the freight?  Union rules?  Anyway, nice photo.

Ron

Hi Ron... Conductors back in 59 probably had their own caboose, complete with bunks dishes ice  and all the other equipment required to get over the road.  Although most head end crews stayed in a bunk houses, tail-end crews stayed in their caboose. 

I suspect the caboose is just dead-heading to the other end of the road,,, It was against union rules to have cars behind a working caboose although again I'm sure   there are examples of exceptions.    It's hard to say exactly what the last car is... A coach . rule car?    Don't know for sure. I've also seen similar set ups with the caboose on the rear and the coach ahead.

I often run mixed trains.  The West India Fruit & Steamship Co. is one i custom painted and lettered.