What are Tinplate Trains?

We have more fun over here.

I think you can get lost down in the weeds trying to parse those definitions. Not being critical, but I view “tinplate trains” as much more than somebody’s definitions and certainly beyond any references to size, scale, etc. To me, it’s more of a state of mind or maybe  “a look.” Tinplate goes beyond the trains themselves to include how layouts are constructed (less detailed scale work and more about painted-on roads and ballast for example),  tin track, and the accessories that are used (a Hellgate Bridge, Power Station or 165 Magnetic Crane screams tinplate).  And of course a blast of color in the greens, blues, and terra cottas of the 20s and 30s. I guess you know it when you see it.

 

Should be an interesting thread and will be curious to see what others think.

 

And we DO have more fun!

The easiest way to think about it. Any toy train be it Standard or O-Gauge or any accessory made BEFORE diecast. Dorfan made a few diecast bodies. IMHO this would be the only exception. There are those who would disagree and to that I can honestly say.."To each their own".

The company I represent, Darstaed, makes tinplate trains. And it is typical of modern British/European tinplate. We make both tinplate and diecast locos, some highly detailed and scale, some traditional semi scale. Our passenger coaches are all tinplate, but so beautifully lithographed and detailed, they can run with very detailed scale locos. In fact the most beautiful combination is pulling the Golden Arrow Pullman set with a brown MTH Chapelon, simply stunning. Also, many of our freight wagons are copied in the style of old Hornby, but with nicely detailed diecast chassis.

American tinplate in the style of the modern MTH made reproductions simply add to the wonderful array of tinplate trains. In the end, to me, they are all toys, doesn't matter how detailed, scale and expensive they might be, they're just toys.

All I can say is:  I know it when I see it.

 

I really don't pay much attention to morphed definitions of the term.

Isn't this a tinplate?

 

 

 

 

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist)

You Betcha! !To The Brotherhood! 

I think we had a very similar to this thread late last year, before the change over on the this forum.  Nice to see the run bys again.

Al 

Several times in the past, as I recall.

Oh Yes! to the "Run-Bys".

And I can't understand why. We're so wonderful we have nothing to be humble about.  Right?    

home recovering from minor shoulder surgery and can't do much, hate TV, so even the run bys are entertaining.

I always thought  ( maybe wrongfully so) that tinplate meant lithographed tin as in plated tin. The lost art of lithography on metal for toys is one of my pet interests and there is  ( at least for me ) no beating Marx especially on the Marx FM diesels in the Seaboard scheme ( which I recently acquired after a long search with the caboose). The only other one close was Unique Arts which I also collect and run. The Rock Island scheme has to be seen in person to be really be appreciated.

 

they are rather stunning. i wonder what was on the Unique Art drawing boards to go with them when they ceased production. i have used mine to pull scale Weaver freights and they look about right, but just not the same to me as tin.

 

Steve

Is the Lionel Hogwarts Express loco in a way, tinplate.

What are tinplate trains? Fun!

What are tinplate trains? My hobby!

What are tinplate trains? A way to meet great friends!

What are tinplate trains? .......

-Pat Rolland

Colorful, noisy, metal, charming, romantic, historic, artistic.

If it makes you smile it's probably tinplate.

More to the point, where does postwar Lionel fit into the "tinplate" category?

 

It (postwar) falls into one of the morphed definitions.  You can take your pick from among the several available, and the one you select will likely directly relate to your age group and time in the hobby.

 

And, of course, thanks to Internet discussion groups, new definitions of what constitutes tinplate are advanced on a rather regular basis.

my opinion only.........the post war passenger sets the carried over the tin passenger sets are tin plate, the rest are not.

 

Steve

I think of tinplate trains as primarily sheet-metal construction.

 

Also buildings and accessories, even taxi's..

 

Lithography is indeed a wonderful part of tinplate, but it's not a lost art at all.

Please look at our Darstaed passenger cars and owner vans. These are amazing.

As I said previously, I run Darstaed Pullmans behind an MTH Premier Chapelon, one of the most detailed scale locos ever produced and they look wonderful together.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107833710368219344289

We are doing some of this lithography here in Australia, my colleague Rob Horton does beautiful work.

Rob does indeed do amazing work, now if you could only convince them to do American prototypes, you would have a new customer in me due to the proof of the quality of his work is certainly evident. Unfortunately I am too vested in the type of equipment I already have but if I should make a change in direction, you are at the top of the list.

I am also glad to see lithography is not a lost art. How about some buildings? I could use more of those..any in the pipeline?

Thanks for all the replies.

 

So Tinplate must be made from tin many of you say.  Where does that place my Marx 999 set with a cast metal 999 engine and tin cars with tin not cast wheels?

 

Charlie

 

again my opinion only, much pre war was a mixture of die cast & sheet metal so your set is tin plate. The same 999 years later was pulling plastic freight cars, which I would not consider tin plate.

 

Steve

To throw some more gasoline on the fire I found the following characteristics of Tinplate from a November 1956 Railroad Model Craftsman magazine, pg 56 under heading "Tinplaters".

 

"Most tinplaters use operating knuckle couplers.  Many build their own equipment, at least rolling stock and we know some scale boys who buy theirs ready to run.  Some tinplate layouts are tinplate only in the sense that the owner uses an inside third rail track, which may be T shaped on wood ties. if he uses Gargraves track.  And the tineplaters say that many of us are tinplaters anyway because we run shorty passanger cars just as they do."

 

Boy, if using 3 rail track, even Gargraves, defines a tinplater, the definition was wide and into that of 3 rail O gauge.  A simple definition of tinplate seems very elusive.  It is easy to define scale railroading compared to this.

 

Charlie

I think like a lot of terms tinplate became a general one rather what it originated from which was the largely prewar use of steel and tin for the bodies of the products that were actually plated or lithographed. The meaning then became a sort of slang without any specific definition  except in the context in which it was used. Tinplate-like would have been a more accurate term for a lot of stuff than was categorized as simpler, or less accurate in terms of replicating a prototype. In a sense it's a word that has become a broader category and so is more subjective. For example, I have a collection of Hafner. Under one of the gondolas, you can clearly see without any difficulty, they used a mustard tin to make the "model" ( probably during WW2 or the Korean War metal shortages) Unless you turned it upside down, you would never know this as it is the same as all the other cars ..that is the essence of tinplate.

The collection of Marx cast steamers I have are tin-plate like but they are simpler ( read cheaper ) cousins of their post war brethren, rather than tinplate. I simply see them as postwar examples competing against Flyer or Lionel.

You're right about that, Charlie.  

 

When originally used, "tinplate" was fairly easy to define, and the definition was pretty much universal.  It was used to describe trains that were primarily (but not necessarily exclusively) made of sheet metal of some type and which were basically considered to be toy trains.  

 

As the manufacturing process evolved, the distinction between toy and model trains became more blurred, and the term evolved with several different meanings or interpretations, depending on what one saw from his or her own perspective.  

 

For the scale modeling community, tinplate was anything that ran on three rails and/or grossly oversize toy train track, no matter how finely proportioned and detailed the model.  Even today, many in the scale modeling world apply the term "tinplate" to even our most finely proportioned and detailed O gauge models because they usually operate on toy train track.

 

For those in the "toy train" community, and especially those who take offense at being referred to as tinplaters (I guess they consider it a disparaging term), the definition was further revised to distinguish the hi-rail folks from the rest of the crowd.

 

Today it's possible to define "tinplate" in any of these ways, and perhaps even a few more.  I prefer to be more of a purist, and lean toward the original definition.  As I noted in my earlier post:  I know it when I see it, and don't much care what definition others may choose to apply.

 

My first Lionel train, which actually was bought for my older sister when she was very young (for use around the Christmas tree), had a die-casst locomotive, but the tender and all the rolling stock was lithographed sheet metal.  I consider it to be a tinplate train, just as I considered all my New Marx trains to be tinplate, and just as I consider all my contemporary MTH "Tinplate Traditions" and LCT trains to be tinplate.  All of my other trains--made mostly of plastic with the possible exception of the motive power--I simply consider to be "3-rail trains" without any special definition or label applied.  Other may view things differently, but I'm content to let them worry about that. 

Allan

I agree with you inasmuch as our comments generally are similar but it's funny how even the best categories fall short as after I posted that comment I remembered ACE Trains out of the U.K that are considered tinplate due to the construction methods used to create them and yet in thinking about them and revisiting an article describing a few of them, they seem to defy equating more crudely proportioned with tinplate as these would ( in my opinion) rival in outline..... if not in fine detail, some of the modern production labelled as scale.

http://www.tinplatetimes.com/M...e/BritishACE/ace.htm

Variations within both of our definitions seem to apply or at least it would appear so to me. In general terms, these days, the historical term of tinplate as you say, is blurred and I think Ace is a good example of tinplate that does not match the stereotype or how I envision it. Darstaed passenger coaches when viewed from at least a photograph are hard to pin as tinplate but they are.

You are absolutely correct about that!  I've also seen some "tinplate" from other manufacturers that rivals the best that can be achieved in brass, die-cast, or plastic.  The distinctions are VERY blurred those days!  Which is kid of why I reserve the term for the original product or for contemporary product designed to replicate those earlier items.

Hojack,

I agree, however I was referring to the Marx steam engines and not the rolling stock that I have, and so I consider them postwar engines with tinplate cars, so there's another variation and yet another definition, and of course then there is an exception the NKP #593, the large motor variation (with drivers) with a sheet metal shell that is a 0-4-0 disguised as a Pacific. It's enough to make your head spin. I run all six inch tin cars behind all the Marx engines and run K line cars behind the 901 diesels, or sometimes run Unique Art engines with prewar Flyer etc. So in practice, I dont even try to classify consists as either tinplate postwar or contemporary! LOL If it exists, I'll mix and match it.

 

Great video!!  Can't believe that little snot stays on the track at those speeds.  Shake, rattle, and roll!  See, anyone wants a definition of tinplate, show them that video.  That's tinplate, heart and soul.   'nuf said.

electroliner,

 

Great looking layout. Love the sounds, lights and operating gates, etc.

 

Hojack really was on the right path here IMO.  A number of good comment in the thread however, and good to see some lively discussion... Here is some more fuel for you all...

 

Louis Hertz also defined "Tinplate" in his book "Collecting Model trains". His definition contends that the term never applied to the trains themselves (though that has evolved as you have pointed out) but rather it was a description of the track. He goes on to conclude that todays definition (1956 vintage) is an amalgamation of all the items you guys discussed with the addition that the models are nearly always pre-assembled and ready to run... save the 700K, etc.

 

He further defines the "Tinplate Trains" moniker as a preferred hobby term describing all types of mass production trains, originally intended for use as toys.

 

I like the "tinplate trains" definition.... kinda covers all the bases.

RJ, That sir... was funny!

Sorry, I missed this comment of yours last week. Andries Grabowsky, the man behind Darstaed, and the original maker of Ace, is a true tinplate guy. He likes the toy look, we've had these discussions already. As you have noted, the Darstaed offerings currently, are more towards the scale and realistic end of the spectrum, primarily servicing the UK market and followers of UK trains. Andries has outlined this coming year's production to include A3 and A4 locos, plus the currently released Jinty in coloured liveries and the Pannier. Being a small maker, this is pretty much what is happening from Andries, but we will be doing, hopefully Rob Horton's vans, some additional Australian themed vans and a couple of novelty sets. After this, we are indeed looking at doing some buildings, and expect in the future, some American styled tinplate offerings and some European products, as that is where Darstaed evolved. (Switzerland)