What Are We After Here?...

Hi Mark:

I try to keep a balance because my new helpers like classic toy train action.

Check out this video from my YT channel. It tells our layout story.

Gary in Michigan

Inspiration, information, sharing, entertainment and learning. 

Speaking only for myself, my only venture into "fantasy" rolling stock is my postwar trains.  I don't consider myself a rivet counter, but everything else I run is scale and reflects real-world prototypes.

Strummer posted:

... we see comments made ... regarding the new PRR H10 ... the wheel base being incorrect... we want our models to be as accurate as possible.

... after all, the modeler can point to a photo of the prototype and show a discrepancy in the model ...

Mark in Oregon

I've edited the above post for the specific point I want to make. That is:

Model steam locomotives are highly engineered devices that require compromises for reasons such as cost, material thickness, geometry (wheelbase, diameter, flange depth) to operate on a defined curve radius, interior volume to fit motor and electronics, etc. The final product represents the compromises made by the designer to get the model built. If the wheelbase (or anything else) isn't exactly as per prototype, it's unlikely because the designer was unaware of it.

MELGAR

For me getting back into the hobby after say 60 or so years, it is all about fun for the grandkids. Lights, sound,ease of control.  Carpet Central also has to function with the constraints from grandmom, but fastrack has a neat clean look, so I don't get too much resistance on that front, as long as the expansion is confined to one corner of the living room, where the Christmas tree will go. But since it is neat and clean I keep it up all year.  Remote or BT app control, just two ovals, I add lighted cars for more visual fun. Grandson likes to run the trains in the dark. What I really want to get is an MTH Ge Evolution with charging lights, but now we would go to a new control system, as opposed to Lionchief. Grandson is 5 so he will probably have declining interest in going to gradpops house as time goes on, but will have a new grandson in about a month.  Then again the 2 year old lady can run the Lionchief trains.

Oldmike

IT IS ALL GOOD! In my 60+ years in this hobby in multiple gauges, I have never been a modeler or craftsman, and have generally regarded all my various trains and accessories as amusing objects that had varying degrees of realism suggested by their design. I always enjoyed whatever I ran, whether Gilbert S gauge, prewar standard or a scale Lionel Hudson, or even the delightful toy-like European LGB. Though never a craftsman, I possess some mechanical skills, and have acquired a number of precision tools and did many successful repairs in mostly the larger gauges. My layouts were really more displays with assorted accessories and figures and no scenary, tunnels or bridges. Boring, you say, but NOT to me. I never really got into the special-run cars or the Christmas-themed trains, but I have given a few Polar Express sets to young folks, as well as Thomas and James sets. I suppose I like a reasonable verisimilutude to the real thing, but never letting go of the idea they are amusing toys that give me pleasure in my leisure moments, and help me to briefly escape the relentless vagaries and physical ailments of this life!

OldMike posted:

For me getting back into the hobby after say 60 or so years, it is all about fun for the grandkids. Lights, sound,ease of control.  Carpet Central also has to function with the constraints from grandmom, but fastrack has a neat clean look, so I don't get too much resistance on that front, as long as the expansion is confined to one corner of the living room, where the Christmas tree will go. But since it is neat and clean I keep it up all year.  Remote or BT app control, just two ovals, I add lighted cars for more visual fun. Grandson likes to run the trains in the dark. What I really want to get is an MTH Ge Evolution with charging lights, but now we would go to a new control system, as opposed to Lionchief. Grandson is 5 so he will probably have declining interest in going to gradpops house as time goes on, but will have a new grandson in about a month.  Then again the 2 year old lady can run the Lionchief trains.

Oldmike

Oldmike, you haven't lived until you have tunnelled through the wall so the trains leave the living room and come back. LOL

So glad you are enjoying your trains with your grandchildren.

Arnold: Never fear, I just bought 20 inches of fastrack straights to add to each of the two ovals, that is a 25% or so increase in length. Grandmom may never even notice. Now I can extend the new Toymaker Trolley to its full length of fastrack that came with it. Too bad I can't go into an L shape.    So in the past two weeks have added the Toymaker Trolley, 20 inches of track, and the MTH blinking PRR Stop Look and Listen boxcar.            Oldmike

Oldmike: You are having great FUN, and that is the real goal of our infaturation with these models!  ☺

Well, most of the history of Lionel is TOY trains, even though terms like "realism" and "scale proportions" were used in Lionel catalogs. Even today, Ryan Kunkle of Lionel, said at the YORK show that even though the traditional trains don't get the attention that the scale products do, it is the traditional starter set line that keeps the company in business.

The scale product line is a new thing and I'm sure the folks at Lionel as well as the other companies thought, "Hey let's try this. This hasn't been done before." And the new scale product realism has helped pull some away from HO or other scales, which was probably part of the idea.

On the other hand, just how big is the scale market? It's certainly NOT taking over as some would suggest. We see announced product runs of scale proportioned products that don't even make one hundred. Lionel has said a run of 3,000 scale items is an exceptionally large production run. Whereas the same number for a traditional line starter set is a small run.

If anyone watched the TrainWorld live stream with Mike Wolf, he said his single best selling item of the year was one of the Christmas cars. And he said all of his Christmas themed cars were very strong sellers. Now you'd think with what we read here on this forum, that the most popular, best selling train would be one of realism, that was high-end scale with 100% proportional accuracy with accurate details and an exact paint scheme to boot. NOT a flat car with Santa and the reindeer on it.

But as Jerry Calabrese once said, Lionel can ill-afford to abandon any one segment of their customer base. And I do believe that to be true, not only for Lionel, but MTH too.

So the problem is not the train companies (although they do have their own difficulties). The problem is us: Every one has an opinion, but in today's self-entitled, electronically connected world, someone's opinion isn't valid unless it matches yours, which then makes it "correct."

We all should be thankful for the multitude of choices that are already available in this hobby, instead of complaining about what hasn't been made yet. Make your product suggestion and be done with it. One hundred product suggestions coming from the same one person doesn't carry the weight of 100 different people suggesting one single product.

I'll close with this story. I was at a train show looking over the Ross 3-rail track and met Steve Ross. He asked if he could help me, and I told him I was strictly a 027 guy, but was curious about his product line. And he told me "thank you." Surprised, I asked him for what?

And he told me that even though I wasn't buying scale products, I was helping to keep Lionel going strong and stay in business. And with Lionel doing well, that benefits his company. I liked his attitude and wish more people in the hobby had that way of thinking. If I was a scale guy, I'd seriously consider the Ross track line just because I liked his attitude.

I also wonder if the manufacturers look at the "prototype" modelers as a pain in the a**

I expect there's a couple of manufacturers that look at "toy" modelers the same way.

I see the old, tired saying "They're all toys" all the time, but there is a difference between a toy train and a model train.  Telling someone their $5,000 brass steam engine is nothing more than a toy is an insult.

If I was a manufacturer who had spent hours pouring over pages of documentation to make a product, I'd want it to be as accurate as cost would allow.  Also, I'd rather not have an appliance on a model, rather than to have the wrong appliance on a model.  One that comes to mind are doors on a boxcar, not all PS1boxcars had Superior type doors.  Not all EMD E7 had 5-chime horns.

But...I'd also like to have nothing but Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line models offered instead of all those other RRs

brianel027: Well stated, Sir!  ☺

Train Room Gary shows his operating boxcar & log car by Williams by Bachmann on you tube---Very nice indeed.  If you know anything about the controller and boxcar plus the log car plus the coal dump car --- they were originally made by K-Line and I bought several of these cars & controllers back in the day.  This was a fantastic idea -- All you had to do is program the car and use the controller, spot the car anywhere on the layout with the power on the track,  push that button on the controller and the car operates by radio signal.  Do you remember the Lionel Atomic Train in 1949 and 1950? That was the same idea.  K-Line had a great idea and perfected it very well.  When Lionel absorbed K-Line, I think they made these cars and controllers for a while and then Williams by Bachmann  bought the rights, etc to make these cars & controllers.  If you find a store that sells these items you might try them out, they are great fun.    railbear601 

"If anyone watched the TrainWorld live stream with Mike Wolf, he said his single best selling item of the year was one of the Christmas cars. And he said all of his Christmas themed cars were very strong sellers."

Many of the  Christmas cars and engines have nice, led lights on the outside

I rest my case. Visual lighting effects, attract the attention of kids.

Oldmike

OldMike posted:

I rest my case. 

Oldmike

 

I didn't think there was a "case to be made"; can't a guy just think out loud on this site?

Mark in Oregon

OldMike posted:

Arnold: Never fear, I just bought 20 inches of fastrack straights to add to each of the two ovals, that is a 25% or so increase in length. Grandmom may never even notice. Now I can extend the new Toymaker Trolley to its full length of fastrack that came with it. Too bad I can't go into an L shape.    So in the past two weeks have added the Toymaker Trolley, 20 inches of track, and the MTH blinking PRR Stop Look and Listen boxcar.            Oldmike

Way to go!

Bob Delbridge posted:

I also wonder if the manufacturers look at the "prototype" modelers as a pain in the a**

I expect there's a couple of manufacturers that look at "toy" modelers the same way.

I see the old, tired saying "They're all toys" all the time, but there is a difference between a toy train and a model train.  Telling someone their $5,000 brass steam engine is nothing more than a toy is an insult. 

Sorry, no sale.

If that owner feels insult, that's the owner's problem.  There are many. many toys that are far more expensive that that toy train.  How about a multi-million dollar luxury yacht or even a fancy bass boat?  They are not less toys for their price tags.

Toy is a function of utility.  An item made to be a diversion, a pastime, a hobby is a toy:  it isn't necessary.   No one depends upon it.  If it disappeared, no one is going to starve or freeze.

You can subdivide types of toys all you want, but the macro-category remains.

Honestly, both.  Depending on what it is I'm buying.  If I'm buying an elf pumping hand car or area-51 set, it is perfectly good being completely unrealistic.  if I'm buying a LionChief Plus engine, I want it to more or less look like the engine it is supposed to be.  It's ok if it's a little small to make it around a curve or in general just look about right from a distance.  On the other hand, if I'm buying a $2000+ flagship model I expect it to have no major differences from the prototype unless they are absolutely unavoidable. ( ex large wheel flanges or rails and parts that are thicker than they should be because the metal is too weak any smaller.).

In the high end models, there is little reason to have errors and the customer base shouldn't accept them.  In the mid-range I think effort should be made to be true to the prototype,but don't mind when choices are made that keep costs down for a 'semi-scale' look.  it does bug me on these models if something is wrong for no reason other than an artist designing the mold getting creative.  On the low end and fantasy items, anything goes.  honestly, though, as long as the product delivered is the same product I ordered, I can't complain, if I don't like it I won't buy it.  

This is a thought-provoking thread with thoughtful replies!  ☺

Inspiration, information, sharing, entertainment and learning!!!

There is only one choice, Fun. Fantasy or accurate; prewar, postwar or modern; conventional or command, it's all for fun, enjoyment and entertainment. I think the O gauge manufacturers cover all of that pretty well, something for everyone here. No matter which one you choose, the 3 rail O gauge hobby has it all. This is the only size/scale/gauge that has such a variety (as far as I know) and in my opinion the selection has never been better in O gauge everything. If everyone buys what they like and they are enjoying what they buy then it appears to me everyone is having fun and the whys, whats, or comparisons don't matter. You are here for fun and to enjoy the hobby!

rtr12 posted:

There is only one choice, Fun. Fantasy or accurate; prewar, postwar or modern; conventional or command, it's all for fun, enjoyment and entertainment. I think the O gauge manufacturers cover all of that pretty well, something for everyone here. No matter which one you choose, the 3 rail O gauge hobby has it all. This is the only size/scale/gauge that has such a variety (as far as I know) and in my opinion the selection has never been better in O gauge everything. If everyone buys what they like and they are enjoying what they buy then it appears to me everyone is having fun and the whys, whats, or comparisons don't matter. You are here for fun and to enjoy the hobby!

RTR12 - Well stated!  I agree totally.

I'm fairly serious about my trains, not into anything fantasy anymore, and try to keep everything scale. I'm also not a rivet counter. That kind of detail is really unimportant to operations, and hard to detect on moving trains anyway. In my world, it's all about the general impression of reality, right down to the fact that I'm modeling real world places.

My latest project involves converting a K-line combine into a specific car from the GN Empire Builder. I found the plans for the baggage / dormitory in a book of early Amtrak car diagrams, that I've had on my shelf for years. I'm also using photos from Railpicturesarchive.net. Unfortunately, the K-line car is a couple feet too long, but there's no good way to correct this, so I'll just have to blend that fact into the car, with proportional spacing. Nobody is going to bust out a ruler and measure, but my train buddies may recognize the car as being from the GN fleet. It's a rather unique car.

Here's the train it will go into. The car in question is the second car, a Pennsy combo.

This is what I'm going for, in the green "hockey stick" scheme.

Here's one in the big sky blue scheme. Note the 5 windows.

Here's the other side, with only 4 windows. Seven of the nine windows are associated with the seven triple bunks. The car sleeps 21. This car has no skirts, so I'll be cutting them off the model, moving the doors, removing the vestibule, changing the windows and repainting. And while not perfect, it should make the point, giving the "general impression" without going crazy.

Hope you'll post some photos when you're done. 

Mark in Oregon

This question will be asked till the end of time. I remember in the 70's Walthers had a steam engine lettered in Penn Central. All over America emergency rooms were overflowing with accurate guys having heart attacks. LOL

To me at the end of the day the only person that matters is the one looking back at you when you shave.

".....and I'll have fun, fun, fun till the Big Guy takes my ticker away." LOL

Aliquippa & Southern posted:

This question will be asked till the end of time. I remember in the 70's Walthers had a steam engine lettered in Penn Central. All over America emergency rooms were overflowing with accurate guys having heart attacks. LOL

To me at the end of the day the only person that matters is the one looking back at you when you shave.

".....and I'll have fun, fun, fun till the Big Guy takes my ticker away." LOL

Actually, it was decals for Penn Central steam. 

They also offered sets for Burlington Northern, Great Northern Big Sky Blue and Seaboard Coast Line:

Also, the HO world was not immune:

Rusty

Fun? I believe we're after fun. In that case you can do whatever you want. Don't worry what other people think. Have fun.

I think I get freedom to do whatever I want on my layout whenever I get to building it.  I'm planning on most of the layout based of a fictional railroad set in a vision of the future from the perspective of the late 1950's, where steam and diesels run along side each other, and the fictional railroad was willing to use whatever motive power and rolling stock it could find to keep the trains moving.  In this I'm perfectly happy to run the semi-scale stuff as well as full scale.  The stuff for children and postwar accessories will have their own little area so I can have them without affecting the main area.  

I love the super realistic layouts, and I think I find them more fun to look at than the post-war styles and Christmas layouts you see a lot of, but that level of attention to detail isn't something I'm looking to do myself.  most of my fun is in actually running the trains, and I don't care much how things look in the end as long as there is plenty to do on the layout, but do want to give a try at things not looking really out of place.  

Well to answer the OP's question-sometimes I look at this gigantic empire I have created in my basement and I think "I have lost my mind" additionally I have not yet grown the Hutzpa to add up how much it has cost me. But I know one thing for sure I LOVE THESE TRAINS AND TRACK! Nick

I associated trains with Christmas or toys until I found this forum and started "stalking" through the different feeds.  Now I find the realism of what many of you have created is educational and inspirational.  

This years Christmas train garden has been planned with an ulterior motive.  I will be building a permanent, operational layout instead of just tearing down the tables and platforms after the holidays.  I figured that most of the lumber will now be in the basement and, more importantly, the woman to which I'm related by marriage has approved the expansion.  

Once I put away the North Pole to Christmastown run the planning will begin.  I don't think I'll become a "rivet counter" but I am going to try and to create a more realistic operational railroad.  After all, it's fun.

I like the 10 ft scale trains.

When your 10 feet back it looks like a train and the rivets look very accurate at that scale

Why am I here?

Simple: To stroke my ego, to try to become one of those that can bully in the threads, be caustic, to see how rude I can be before I get my post deleted, to belittle those of differing modeling philosophies, and in general try to be as big of a hind end as I can be. (One can always increase one's ability in that realm, 'ya know.)

NOT.

I'm here to have fun with model trains and share any fun I find with others that may also enjoy sharing the fun of model trains. That there are a bunch of good guys here from all walks of model trains is just frosting.

Andre

laming posted:

Why am I here?

Simple: To stroke my ego, to try to become one of those that can bully in the threads, be caustic, to see how rude I can be before I get my post deleted, to belittle those of differing modeling philosophies, and in general try to be as big of a hind end as I can be. (One can always increase one's ability in that realm, 'ya know.)

NOT.

I'm here to have fun with model trains and share any fun I find with others that may also enjoy sharing the fun of model trains. That there are a bunch of good guys here from all walks of model trains is just frosting.

Andre

...  ...

Mark in Oregon

I prefer my toy trains and model trains to run on electricity; be able to go forwards and backwards; be able to have it operate reliably; and make some noise as it travels around the track like it did in the 50's.  No worries about duplicate cars, authenticity, correct color, or how much it is worth.  Even fantasy is okay, especially if your audience likes it.

All the rest is like arguing Ford vs. Chevy.

About 9 or so years ago; I was told this was a great place to find single women.  😉

Seriously; it was my youngest son who introduced me to this forum years ago and while he has moved on to pursuing a career and other interests; I’ve stuck around.  I like the ”conversation” with other folks who like trains - real and/or model.  Additionally; when I was still adding onto my layout there were always good tips on here for scenery and what have you.  Plus; when you are experiencing one of “those days” with your layout; you can always find some commiserating souls here on the forum.

Curt

Ah, the politics of model railroading, gotta love it.

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Well, most of the history of Lionel is TOY trains, even though terms like "realism" and "scale proportions" were used in Lionel catalogs. Even today, Ryan Kunkle of Lionel, said at the YORK show that even though the traditional trains don't get the attention that the scale products do, it is the traditional starter set line that keeps the company in business.

The scale product line is a new thing and I'm sure the folks at Lionel as well as the other companies thought, "Hey let's try this. This hasn't been done before." And the new scale product realism has helped pull some away from HO or other scales, which was probably part of the idea.

On the other hand, just how big is the scale market? It's certainly NOT taking over as some would suggest. We see announced product runs of scale proportioned products that don't even make one hundred. Lionel has said a run of 3,000 scale items is an exceptionally large production run. Whereas the same number for a traditional line starter set is a small run.

If anyone watched the TrainWorld live stream with Mike Wolf, he said his single best selling item of the year was one of the Christmas cars. And he said all of his Christmas themed cars were very strong sellers. Now you'd think with what we read here on this forum, that the most popular, best selling train would be one of realism, that was high-end scale with 100% proportional accuracy with accurate details and an exact paint scheme to boot. NOT a flat car with Santa and the reindeer on it.

But as Jerry Calabrese once said, Lionel can ill-afford to abandon any one segment of their customer base. And I do believe that to be true, not only for Lionel, but MTH too.

So the problem is not the train companies (although they do have their own difficulties). The problem is us: Every one has an opinion, but in today's self-entitled, electronically connected world, someone's opinion isn't valid unless it matches yours, which then makes it "correct."

We all should be thankful for the multitude of choices that are already available in this hobby, instead of complaining about what hasn't been made yet. Make your product suggestion and be done with it. One hundred product suggestions coming from the same one person doesn't carry the weight of 100 different people suggesting one single product.

I'll close with this story. I was at a train show looking over the Ross 3-rail track and met Steve Ross. He asked if he could help me, and I told him I was strictly a 027 guy, but was curious about his product line. And he told me "thank you." Surprised, I asked him for what?

And he told me that even though I wasn't buying scale products, I was helping to keep Lionel going strong and stay in business. And with Lionel doing well, that benefits his company. I liked his attitude and wish more people in the hobby had that way of thinking. If I was a scale guy, I'd seriously consider the Ross track line just because I liked his attitude.

 

 

 

Brian has my opinion covered.

I can only add that I run O-27 equipment at home and scale equipment at the club. For certain models, I want scale renderings. Otherwise, I count the rails. If I see three, it means toy trains, and anything goes. Best of both worlds.

One minor correction. That’s Steven Ross Brenneisen of Ross Custom Switches.

JohnGaltLine posted:

Honestly, both.  Depending on what it is I'm buying.  If I'm buying an elf pumping hand car or area-51 set, it is perfectly good being completely unrealistic.  if I'm buying a LionChief Plus engine, I want it to more or less look like the engine it is supposed to be.  It's ok if it's a little small to make it around a curve or in general just look about right from a distance.  On the other hand, if I'm buying a $2000+ flagship model I expect it to have no major differences from the prototype unless they are absolutely unavoidable. ( ex large wheel flanges or rails and parts that are thicker than they should be because the metal is too weak any smaller.).

In the high end models, there is little reason to have errors and the customer base shouldn't accept them.  In the mid-range I think effort should be made to be true to the prototype,but don't mind when choices are made that keep costs down for a 'semi-scale' look.  it does bug me on these models if something is wrong for no reason other than an artist designing the mold getting creative.  On the low end and fantasy items, anything goes.  honestly, though, as long as the product delivered is the same product I ordered, I can't complain, if I don't like it I won't buy it.  

I generally share this point of view as well, though I can’t afford $2,000 models. 

Our goal is fun.

If not, why bother?

Mark