What did MPC do differently?

Ah, ha!  Thank you Jim!!

Bruce,

Thank you very much.  I was not familiar with these.

The maintenance Plymouths & Vulcans were always a favorite. The CP & Rio Grande' esp. And critters being the first 100% complete "section" of trains in Gramps old collection. Im sure I'll end up with a corrected "a" sooner or later.

(Rio Grande #53 had a backwards "a" that was placed the normal direction on the new ones. I think the guide wheel direction was changed on some to differentiate between the old too).

How do the PW critters compare running? Do the late ones have pulmors, or can motors?

The new age trolley bumpers, are the only critter complaint I really have. I can find yellow, and paint grey with red. The loss of moving catenary pole? Boo! The adding of two nice ones, hurray!  

Mostly, MPC was a bridge to allow Mr. Kughn to revive it and keep Lionel going. MPC made some great 1/25 scale model cars too.

The 2-4-2 versions had pulmor motors and diecast frames, same as PW.  

There is also a cheap version with a 0-4-0 wheel arrangement, dummy couplers and a can motor.  That one is still made (unfortunately).

I think there was a lot more to MPC than that.

633 is a closer match for paint I think.

  "The Cyclone" has "nothing" for detail, but better nose striping.

I added most details, except the wheel, but including the missing coupler(non op).

8010 is a more "royal blue". I don't have one.

I'm not always a fan of super shiny, and I think the royal is too bold.

But considering 633s are a hard to find, one year only, cheap end 60s engine..

  Operating couplers, availability, and price, might have sold me over the blue.

Its sharp, I'm just sayin.

My post war, and "can" SW's have different suitabilities, and abilities. Grade strength, vs flat. So a manetraction SW, would swing me at PW as the only issue ith either is traction.

 "MPC" orange did look good on the DT&I engines, and Coast Guard SW.

I am a little confused about the different groups within General Mills that Lionel was controlled by. Why did they work so hard to add the MPC logo only to remove it by the late 70's?  Even when Lionel was part of Kenner Toys...wasn't that still controlled by General Mills?

The mechanicals are the important compare/contrast aspect here, not the decoration.

The first 8010 switchers made actually had 634 cabs.

I am grateful that General Mills had the foresight to continue the production of Lionel Trains.I was so excited when I sent off for the 1970 poster/catalog. That hung in my room for years! The first items I bought was the 8020 Santa Fe Alco A-B and several of the 9200 and 9700 series boxcars. The Alco's still run great after 40+ years. I really think Fundimensions hit their groove around 76-77 and by 1980 were as established and innovative as the original Lionel Corp. I still have the 8100 N&W set,the UP,NYC,PRR and SP passenger sets,the green GG1 and several of the FM"s and the 783 Hudson. My 1950's were the 1970's! Here are come pix of my childhood layout,the top two are from 1974 the bottom in 1977. I enjoyed the heck out of my trains.

I happened upon one of those posters not long ago.  It's slated to hang on a wall concealing the chimney in the train room when finished .

Bruce

The 1970 catalog was also available in booklet form. I don't know whether the poster style or booklet style is more difficult to find.

In 45+ years of collecting,I have only seen a couple of the booklets.I think I may have one in my archives somewhere.The poster-catalogs are much easier to find.As far as fundimensions consumer catalogs,The tough one seems to be the full size 1981 catalog as most are found in the small format.

When it comes to paper, the info obtained therein holds more interest for me than rarity or condition.  Still, knowing of the variations is always helpful and appreciated, C.W.

The plan is to mount the poster between plexiglass and hinge the frame so both sides may be viewed.  I also have a 1920 Lionel catalog that is of the same format and in really sad shape.  Sandwiching it's tattered pages between plexi will be the only way to properly display it.

Bruce

quote:

The maintenance Plymouths & Vulcans were always a favorite.

For me too. I also purchased things like the Ballast Tamper and Fire Cars. I even purchased some of the later ones with electronics!

The full size 1981 catalog is actually the Lionel, MPC & Craft Master full product line, which is commonly referred to as the Toy Fair Catalog.

Just to avoid confusion, the 0-4-0, the so-called "gas turbine," was a completely different engine from the 2-4-2 Vulcans. It was a pretty cheap unit, with a can motor, as John notes, plastic frame and sliding shoe pickup. The bottom photo shows the the two different units for comparison.

speaking of all the colorful paint schemes on these engines and rolling stock, I have always liked steam era black locomotives and dull rolling stock.  Black, boxcar brown, and a dash of red for the caboose.  However, it started with Christopher Esposito's photos of his colorful MPC era equipment a few months ago.  Seeing the colorful equipment of NCJoe's was next, now I see theirs and others here.  I am liking the first generation diesel and passenger car color schemes more than the freight cars. Could I be swayed after more than 45 years in model trains???  Some may say I have a chance to come over from the dark side.  

20+ years ago as I was wading back into this hobby I picked up two of those factory weathered reefers at a hobby shop in Brooklyn.  I had no idea they were special, I just thought they looked good and were very affordable.  Had I known there were only 8 factory weathered pieces back then I would have looked through those shelves for the rest of them.  I was able to complete the set a few years ago with the help of Grzyboski Trains, Trainz and e-Bay.

Coach Joe

I think MPC was quick to recognize the collector marketplace and started early to appeal to this audience. Some examples might be The reefer car coupons used to obtain direct from the factory boxcars like the green M&stL Peoria Gateway box car, same type of coupon deal to get a Minneapolis car for your Milwaukee road passenger cars and the first F3 Service station specials.  

Good comparison.  In recent years they have also used the Vulcan body on the cheap chassis.  I avoid those like the plague.  The die cast frame 2-4-2s are a fav, I have three so far.  Nice critters for industrial switching, run real slow.  Noisy, but then you don't need a sound system!   

I am familiar with the Advance/Dealer/Toy Fair Catalogs. I have 2-3 cubic yards of Lionel and other catalogs I have accumulated over the years.Someday I need to go through them.I'm sure I have the 81' Toy Fair in there. What's also interesting to me about the 81 is that there were so many interesting items that year. 

Their Billboard refers were exceptional, Had what I think was a full set donated to me that were damaged from Hurricane Sandy. Literally caked in Mud. Out of the 24 car i got 20 survived and cleaned up real nice. I passed them onto to one of my fellow club members who is dedicated to the 027 size. They run fine and are an eye catcher when they are in operation as a long consist.

Appreciate the Lionel history discussed here, Great thread!!!

Steve

quote:

20+ years ago as I was wading back into this hobby I picked up two of those factory weathered reefers at a hobby shop in Brooklyn.

I don't think those weathered reefers were as well received as Lionel had hoped. I got my set on closeout. And it was a long time before Lionel tried offering weathered equipment again.
The car molds continued to be used. But the cars did not have weathering, or metal trucks as the weathered card did.

quote:

I think MPC was quick to recognize the collector marketplace and started early to appeal to this audience.

I agree. MPC also was careful to make their new product in different colors / decorations to help avoid counterfeiting of Postwar trains.

IMO, collecting was the best part of the MPC & early LTI  eras..

I'm surprised after all these years with so many folks still interested in MPC, some type of informal MPC fan group meeting at York has not been formed to test interest.  

If its great enough, fans could end up with a hall dedicated to MPC & LTI where folks buy & sell.

Joe   

Since the subject of the small industrial type units was brought up, from Don Ross' superb site, this is the Davenport model which served as the prototype inspiration for the Lionel's number 41 Army gas turbine locomotive. In overall appearance, Lionel's version is quite accurate.

Bob

quote:

If its great enough, fans could end up with a hall dedicated to MPC & LTI where folks buy & sell.

There aren't any halls dedicated to specific areas of collecting, and no attempt is made to organize table holders according to what they have available. Many, if not most table holders have goods that cross areas of interest.
The only organization is the separation of dealers from non-dealers. This is done to satisfy the PA tax department.

quote:

Counterfeiting?  That would require a completely different mindset than the toy company had.  They did their best to "reissue" (read:  duplicate while improving on) some few PW trains to cash in on pent up demand, but mostly they struck out to make trains more appealing than PW had been. 

I was active in the hobby during the entire MPC era, and stand by my statement.

With over 3000 views and 150 responses in less then a week, I'm guessing interest in early Lionel modern era remains alive and well.

Never know, a dedicated MPC/LTI trading hall with operating layout (black) might be a spark that reignites a fire from ashes.

If it were available, I would be the first to check it out.

Joe

Not to take anything away from the MPC era, I just think much of its success was centered around the fact that it appealed to the demand that was present following several years of lack-luster product offerings from the Lionel Corporation in the late 1960's. 

Just compare the 1966 catalog to the 1969 catalog, and you'll see what I'm talking about.  In 1966, Lionel's catalog included model trains (HO and O), racing sets (HO and 1/32), and even microscope/chemistry sets under the Lionel/Porter brand.  In 1966, the O-Gauge offerings included toy-like O-27 sets as well as semi-scale O-Gauge sets and one fabulous Super-O set that even included a ZW transformer.

All that disappeared by 1969, whose catalog was a mere 8-page pamphlet that included just six O-27 train sets and a couple of pages of O-27 locos, rolling stock, accessories and O-27 track.  O-Gauge rolling stock (along with a few offerings of O-Gauge track) were relegated to the back page of the pamphlet -- featuring just five 6464 boxcars and a triple-dome tanker for $9/each.  In short, the 1969 catalog was a mere shadow of the offerings featured in the 1966 catalog --  indicative of company ready to close its doors.

The mere thought of trains no longer being produced made a strong impression on toy train enthusiasts who still had Lionel trains on their mind -- enough so, that when MPC starting re-issuing O-Gauge offerings like the FM Trainmasters, and the Pennsy, SP Daylight and N&W passenger sets, Lionel enthusiasts rushed to buy trains thinking they needed to grab them quickly before they were no longer available again.  Little did we know back in the 1970's and 1980's that never again -- even up through today -- would their be a downturn in offerings like many of us witnessed in the late 1960's.  The closest we've seen nowadays has been the general instability of an overseas labor market that affected MTH steam locomotive production for a couple of years as well as Atlas-O product availability in general (including rolling stock and track).  And amidst these somewhat isolated production problems, other product offerings from other suppliers were always available... so nobody felt "the beginning of the end was near".

So yes, the MPC era provided a vital link to the offerings we see today.  But I don't know that was ever its design point, if you know what I mean.  I think it's just the way the toy train business evolved over time.  Nobody's crystal ball was that good back in those days.  

David

Back in the eighties and the early nineties, we had customers that purchased a lot of engines and cars but never any track. Some of our customers never took anything out of the box while a few displayed their trains.

And that too was part of the phenomenon of PW trains escalating in value on the secondary market.  Exotic variations of MINT and Like-New postwar FM Trainmasters fetching $500+ when the 1960's versions could be originally purchased for less than $60 got people thinking the new MPC offerings would be extremely valuable some point down the road as MINT product.  Little did folks realize that this thing called the technology treadmill would come into play big-time -- obsoleting their MPC purchases within 5-10 years as more scale/detailed offerings became the "next big thing" of desire.

So what's the big take-away here?  All of these goodies are just "moment in time collectables" unless ALL toy train manufacturing were to stop rather quickly.  And that doesn't seem likely any time soon.  I guess it's possible that some folks could argue MPC stuff is now collectable again, since it's no longer being produced anymore.  I just think that's a niche market that isn't gonna sustain the kinds of price escalation that original Lionel Postwar trains saw in the 1970's/80's. 

For some folks, MPC will always carry the stigma that "re-issued trains will never be as valuable as the originals".  I see the same kind of thinking in today's purely traditonal Standard Gauge world regarding LCT tinplate.  But today's culture is also undeniably very "operator-oriented" (as opposed to collector-oriented), so most of us newbies don't care anymore whether something is original or re-issued.  We just wanna have fun RUNNING trains... the way they were meant to be enjoyed. 

David

 I am an unabashedly, unapologetic accumulator of NEW and SHINY trains, whether they be MTH "Tinplate Traditions", "Lionel Classics" or "Lionel Corporation Tinplate" standard gauge, or an O gauge Lionel VL Hudson, or even MPC!

NOT interested in scratched, faded or dinged trains with missing parts! NOT a collector!

Absolutely!   Every time we get one of these MPC threads going they prove to be one of the most popular topics on the forum. MPC collecting and operatng is alive and well!

Great thread everybody. Keep the pics coming!

Some random shots.

M&STL Geep

Chessie Uboat

I always though this box car was a classic. A really unusual shade of blue with the white lettering.

Chessie Crane Car

quote:

And the funny thing about that, the crazed mind set that drove rampant buying was simply misguided speculation driven by rising PW valuations.

For some.

For others, there was the fear of missing out on a desirable item. Around 1973-74, Lionel started making "Limited Editions" to fuel the frenzy. I think two of the first "Limited Edition" items were the Coke set, and the Gold Chessie Geep.