What did MPC do differently?

These days, with the TCA desperate for ideas that could bring increased patronage, they have nothing to lose with a dedicated MPC hall. 

My guess is, folks into MPC will embrace the idea big time.

Joe

quote:

they have nothing to lose with a dedicated MPC hall

If there was a dedicated MPC hall, I'd certainly go through it. I think any further conversation on the subject should be in a new thread on the York forum. I am not trying to stifle discussion, just want to keep this thread on topic.

Oh yeah. I'm there!

During the eighties and early nineties, some of greatest times I had at York was looking for deals on MPC.

My best memories are from the MPC era.

Art

Sorry to disagree but ... my memories of MPC differ, the Mostly Plastic Cr** is how I recall it. The LTI era was a bump up, and whatever you call the SD90MAC engine time frame was the real turning point.

Hhmmm... I think this is largely a very personal thing.  My best memories of toy trains revolve around my Dad in the mid- to late-1960's.  He would take me to a big hobby store off Rt 22 in Greenbrook, NJ called Tiny Tots.  Those of you who lived in that part of NJ back then would know the place very well.  

The place was huge, but it had a relative modest train section by today's standards.  As a 7- or 8-year old kid though, even a modest size train section looked "big".  I can still recall the store employee walking us through the 1966 Lionel catalog like it was yesterday.    A Virginian FM listed for $65 as I recall, but was marked down to $52.  A bargain by today's standards, but my Dad's starting salary as an accountant back then was $75/week.  So even $52 was a tidy sum of money to ask for.

The point being... Stuff could be readily had for less than MSRP in those days.  And even as a kid, I appreciated that.

Fast forward to MPC days... and my most vivid memories were all the scheikster dealers trying to sell stuff above MSRP while attempting to create overnight collectables.    Print media was king back then, and desirable items would often be listed in magazine ads followed by the word "Call" in place of a specific price.    That got old pretty fast.

Bottom line... I appreciated that the MPC era came along when it did.  It served a purpose.  But that's where my love for that era ends.  I liked the nice selection of FM's, and I loved the painted aluminum passenger cars -- especially the SP Daylight and N&W Powhatan Arrow. But obtaining complete passenger sets was always a challenge when dealers played ridiculous pricing games with dining cars and vista domes, cars which always seemed to be produced in lesser quantities than the initial sets... or so we were led to believe.  And dealers preyed on that "impression" big-time.  Same thing could be said for a few select FM's (like the SP black widow and the JC Penny Wabash blue-bird) that rode a roller coaster of price-gouging.  Needless to say, the MPC era in general didn't bring out the better side of people in those days.  But that's the way it was.  

So no... My memories of the MPC days were far from my best memories of toy trains. In fact, MPC represented quite the opposite.     Just keeping it real, folks.  But I also admit it's all relative.

The best toy train memories for me will always hold a special place in my heart, when my Dad would take me to work on a Saturday morning for a couple of hours... Then we'd go out for lunch and I'd convince him to take me to Tiny Tots where a kid who loved Lionel trains could dream for awhile.    Thanks for the great memories, Dad!

David

Well they were for me David.  Memories with my Dad had nothing to do with trains or any other hobby.

Art

I feel LTI did some moves to cheapen the product moreso than MPC.  Plastic frames on 6464 boxcars...those beyond hideous trucks on Alcos and lower end NW-2s.  Those trucks make the Symington Wayne trucks look normal. Never understood why you wouldn't just retool with a copy of what was already there rather than design trucks that make your loco look like an off road vehicle. 

 "Counterfeiting" and selling it as a more valuable item, by paint or re-lettering , had to be a design consideration. Lionel got plenty of input from TCA, and NMRA. 

 Value of the old was a definite concern by "all", even before 68. As the value perception of the product name was a large part of what they were investing in. With the rash of counterfeit tin in the 50s-60s, and then post & pre-war boxes in the late 60's-70s, I'm sure MPC knew confusion & rip-offs could easily happen, and that it was "easy" to prevent from their end. 

 And it would give true collectors another version to buy

I've been remembering a few nights of Gramps listing to the radio, waiting on news of Lionel's fate. The elation that followed MPCs final approval was great! But it was just as quickly accompanied by concern of what was actually going to happen to them.

Stripped?, Sold?, Saved?, Radically changed? There were many fates awaiting, they could have done better, they could have done worse.

"Lionel" is still around, so MPC really wasn't too steep a price to pay.

As the PW trains were to kids who grew up in the 40s, 50s and 60s as they became adults and had their own families,  so it would seem are trains from the MPC Era to kids who grew up in the 70s and 80s and are now in that same stage of life.

If there is going to be growth in interest in the MPC offerings, one would expect it to have showed up by now or be about to evidence itself very, very soon.

quote:

If there is going to be growth in interest in the MPC offerings, one would expect it to have showed up by now or be about to evidence itself very, very soon.

It has. Interest in nice, early MPC has risen on Ebay. People are paying more and more for this early stuff. The prices on "instant collectable" stuff are still way off their peak, and are likely to remain that way for years, if not forever. When newly made, those instant collectables were probably out of reach for most kids. Those kids, who are adults now, want the things they either had when they were kids, or were in reach.,

I sold most of my MPC equipment some years back but kept several pieces. The Bicentennial SCL U36B and BAR GP7/9 are my favorite models of the era.

Following up on my earlier post containing the picture of the prototype for Lionel's model of the Davenport gas turbine locomotive, below is an image of the locomotive Lionel used for development of the Vulcan unit. As noted above, the tooling was subsequently used during the MPC era. Although Lionel's model of the Vulcan utilized the same running gear as the Davenport gas turbine, the Vulcan unit's body is a very credible representation of its intended prototype. 

Bob

Here is a couple of my favorites.

That's great, Art.  The important thing is you have fond memories of some point in time.  I was simply stating it's a personal thing, and we'll each have different time periods that tug at us differently. 

David

Jennifer's question was answered many posts ago, but this has been an interesting read none the less. And to some degree shows what I have always said, that this small O gauge market place is a very diversified one indeed.

Some people will never overcome their opinion of MPC as "mostly plastic crap." Well, from reading here on the forum, one could just as easily make a point that the current stuff is mostly electronic crap: failed circuit boards, blown master boards, faulty smoke units, etc. And with the LOW production runs of these products, you can rest assured that specific parts will not be available in the future, as they STILL are for MPC products 40 years later.

MPC may not be everyone's taste, but the stuff is in most cases a bargain price when compared to new stuff. Parts are readily available and will continue to be as their is the demand enough to justify them. And if you find something where you can't find parts, the trains were made in quantity and are affordable enough that you could purchase another unit to cob for parts.

Even among MPC fans, you find the opinion that the beginner DC stuff was Lionel biggest mistake. WHY? They were low cost sets to introduce new comers to the hobby. Most likely someone buying one of these sets, wasn't going immediately expand to a Hudson or a GG1. And it's not hard at all to wire up both a DC power pack and a Lionel AC transformer to the track, so you can run both.

And plastic wheels... easily replaced should you choose. I buy the Lionel or MTH wheel cars and exchange the metal wheels on the flat car with the plastic wheels that come on some of the short 027 MPC cars. The plastic snap rivets used to hold the trucks - also easily fixed.

I happen to really like the Lionel Industrial Switcher and I jump on them. They're easily repainted, kitbashed and improved. I run my layout on DC current, so I have extra room inside these for added weight, so they easily pull a 10-15 car train. I've added headlights to all, ditch lights to some, strobe lights to some, added handrails, etc. Since I took this picture, I've added front and read handrails to the engine.

The flat car behind the engine, is a repainted short 027 MPC flat with added warning signs along the sides, repainted K-Line gondola LCL crates with flashing lights wired into the red plastic beacon on the top - and thus I have a shorter length toxic waste car completely unique to my layout (along with the engine).

I'm in this hobby for fun and to not break the budget... MPC products fit the bill for me. I'd rather have fun with the trains than complain about them. If something isn't made, I'll take the challenge and make it myself... that for me, is what a hobby is about.

MPC gave us the opportunity to purchase the trains we could not afford in the PW days, for me anyway. Original PW was getting just to expensive in the 70s and MPC filled the affordable void and then some.

Art

Keeping it unfortunate. Perhaps you were focused primarily on your distaste for how a few dealers marketed trains, rather than the trains themselves....and threw the baby out with the bathwater. 

When I got back into O gauge trains in the mid-80s, I found a lot of rolling stock at my local dealer, much of it priced at $9.95. All 1970s MPC stuff. I accumulated quite a collection of it for relatively few $$.  Of course, then I started on the more expensive MPC stuff and PW as well, which cost a lot more. I ended up selling off most of this MPC stuff  in the late 1990s for about what I paid for it, although I still have a fair number of items of rolling stock.

At local train shows in the Cleveland area back then (and there was one almost every week in the winter), you could find many more MPC items at similar low prices. Most MPC Geeps went for $90-100 in new or like new condition, too.

One more

Boxcar Bill,

These are all beauties!  I would consider them the cream of the crop!

The Daylight passenger cars for the engines Bill pictured were spectacular, too. Fluted aluminum, beautifully painted with a complicated combination of black, Daylight orange and red, with multiple silver stripes, perfectly applied. Made 32 years ago, and they still hold their own today.

Great pics everyone. Keep 'em coming!

Thanks Mark. 

  Breeze, I have the 5 car set and the add on diner and vista dome for the daylight, the five car set for the Blue comet and the five car set and diner for the arrow. They are very nice cars. I have eleven of the Pennsy cars below and all have the steps intact.

One aspect of the tremendous job MPC did for Lionel, one that many folks don't think about or else take for granted, is the pioneering work they did with use of product brands and trademarks in decoration and design of rolling stock. This represents some real innovation, and a great deal of work, to coordinate and produce cars adorned with product names and trademarks.

This represents a lot of effort - there is the work to contact and get permission from the trademark owners, entering into a usage agreements and providing the money to pay for such use, and then the design of the decoration and then getting final approval from the trademark owner, and on and on.

Part of the genius of it was the realization that putting commonly identifiable product names and logos on freight cars made a connection with the buying public, and particularly young people who could identify with these products, and get joy in seeing these names on their train cars. This was then expanded to adults also, as MPC went on to produce their wonderful liquor, beer, and tobacco series of boxcars and reefers.

In retrospect, what MPC did was quite amazing, and also paved the way for the widespread use of such items by manufacturers today, even to the point of production by Lionel and MTH of entire labeled trains, from Caterpillar to McDonalds to John Deere (see latest Lionel catalog) to major league sports teams to NASCAR and many more.

Here are just a few of the many brand pieces MPC did, with their amazing displays of graphic design and decorative art:

The plastic frames are late 70s or even earlier. They had tabs to hold the body on, no screws.

 Just so I don't come across 100% negative here:

  I wouldn't feel as comfortable doing this to the pilot of an old one, but one of my favorites is on the top track. (with "blinking passenger car", one roller melting as we watch. The combo car & others, just dirty)

Note how fussy I am running a toy "S"(??) tanker too. (Literally a cheap plastic toy)

I always heard that Lionel (MPC) didn't have to pay to use the logos of Coke, etc etc on their products...due to Lionel being such an icon.  Plus I'm sure General Mills had connections in the Food industry.

In retrospect, what MPC did was quite amazing, and also paved the way for the widespread use of such items by manufacturers today, even to the point of production by Lionel and MTH of entire labeled trains, from Caterpillar to McDonalds to major league sports teams to NASCAR and many more.

Here's just a few of the many pieces MPC did, with their amazing displays of graphic design and decorative art:<<<

Very nice... Beyond amazing, what MPC produced was unique and for the most part has never been reissued. Same for the colorful passenger sets..

Makes me wonder why this stuff has not exploded in value.

Folks love to discribe it as cheap junk, but in reality it was cheap, dirt cheap.

I recall paying less then $6 for RS and not more then $50 for an engine...

Lionel only got expensive after Richard Kughn took over, built a second plant, doubled production rates and capitalized on the collector market..

Joe

My memories are similar to Joe's (JC642). I paid four dollars each for 9040 series boxcars. I think the early 9200 boxcars were $5 or $6 each, and the 9850 series billboard reefers were also $6.00 each. My 8031 CN Geep was $25.00 from Savoy Merchandise in NYC.

Once again, people interested in the MPC era would enjoy reading the TM book. Its very available and rather inexpensive.

Not quite such a bonanza if we remember to factor in inflation, however. For example, using an inflation calculator, that $25.00 8031 Geep (which was made in 1970-71) would cost about $145.00 in today's dollars (for a single motor Geep with a headlight and a mechanical E-unit). 

quote:

Not quite such a bonanza if we remember to factor in inflation, however. For example, using an inflation calculator, that $25.00 8031 Geep (which was made in 1970-71) would cost about $145.00 in today's dollars (for a single motor Geep with a headlight and a mechanical E-unit). 

Are similar locomotives available for $145 today? From what I see a current Conventional Classics ALCO AB is around $250.

I could afford MPC stuff and trains in general by delivering newspapers. In the areas with which I am familiar, they don't let kids deliver papers any more.

Well, yes and no. The point is that while it's fun to say something used to cost just $25, it can be misleading because the actual cost in today's dollars is much, much higher.

Obviously it's a far different world than it was 45 years ago, and a far different marketplace. While there may be few if any engines cataloged for that price, today it's easy to go to resale sites, like auction sites, and find lots of more modern Lionel Geeps in new condition for $145 or less, and they have TMCC, RailSounds, directional lighting, constant voltage lighting, electrocouplers, diecast fuel tanks, pilots, etc.

And newpaper delivery services pay more today, too, of course. I've read that typical newspaper delivery route salaries pay $425-525 per month.

I actually dug my TM book out over the weekend & reread the whole thing.  Really enjoyed it.   I Know the answer is no, but it would be cool if there was an MPC celebration series made today. After I type that, I realize that buying the originals is probably cheaper & they are probably better made

I picked up the 8031 & caboose for under 100 - 8031 was new in the box too

another few cheap pick ups - 

Although Lionel's model of the Vulcan utilized the same running gear as the Davenport gas turbine, the Vulcan unit's body is a very credible representation of its intended prototype.

Interesting.  I never knew that the protoytype was a jackshaft-driven 0-4-0.

MPC gave us the opportunity to purchase the trains we could not afford in the PW days, for me anyway. Original PW was getting just too expensive in the 70s and MPC filled the affordable void and then some.

You are exactly right.  I was just getting interested in postwar collecting in the Seventies, and the MPC products were a real blessing.  I still have the PRR EP-5, Virginian rectifier and CP A-A units that I bought in those days, mainly because I couldn't afford the originals.

quote:

Obviously it's a far different world than it was 45 years ago, and a far different marketplace. While there may be few if any engines cataloged for that price, today it's easy to go to resale sites, like auction sites, and find lots of more modern Lionel Geeps in new condition for $145 or less, and they have TMCC, RailSounds, directional lighting, constant voltage lighting, electrocouplers, diecast fuel tanks, pilots, etc.

In 1972 I could purchase a lot of different used Postwar Lionel engines in nice shape for $25 or less too.

Really?  I compared an MPC AAR truck to a postwar one, and while not using calipers or anything, they seemed to line right up with each other in sideframe length, depth, and wheelbase.  The only differences I could see apart from using a different coupler armature is the rougher finish on the MPC AAR trucks, and the fact the simulated sideframe openings are more "filled in" compared to the postwar ones.   If they spent the considerable amount of money on a newly tooled version of the AAR truck then why would they have used it only for the first 2 years of MPC production?

It depends on which trucks you are comparing. MPC did use leftover Hillside AAR trucks on at least two pieces of rolling stock that were identical to 1969 & earlier production.