Will she be stuck in VA and NC again? Will she be retired again? What do you think?
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645 posted:One more thing - don't forget to round up some coaches so people can ride behind 611 as the locomotive by itself is "useless" without support equipment/facilities.
Or, how about some gondolas and mount some seating...so people can hear the locomotive work!
......additionally, a gondola with seats would need to be provided for the lawyers, who will be initiating lawsuits for the "victims" of cinders in the eyes in the open gons !!!!! (I agree, open gons are totally neat on steam excursions, but, alas, a pleasure from a bye-gone era)
mark s posted:......additionally, a gondola with seats would need to be provided for the lawyers, who will be initiating lawsuits for the "victims" of cinders in the eyes in the open gons !!!!! (I agree, open gons are totally neat on steam excursions, but, alas, a pleasure from a bye-gone era)
The Blue Mountain & Reading has been doing this, standing room only, on certain trips lately. Their #425 will blow your eardrums out.
In another thread on main O gauge forum Rich M. mentioned that NS would only be allowing steam deadhead moves on their rails next year (2018). No NS sponsored excursions or Amtrak sponsored excursions on NS rails as they want to focus on the freight business. This means 611's only potential opportunities to operate in 2018 and the foreseeable future are on short lines. Maybe she can venture to Ohio like the 765 has in years past.
I think they'll keep firing it up, wasting flue time, charging people $25 to blow the whistle and $611 to piddle around and realize they spent a lot of money without doing the research to realize there's nowhere that wants to/ can operate a locomotive that large.
Will Ebbert posted:I think they'll keep firing it up, wasting flue time, charging people $25 to blow the whistle and $611 to piddle around and realize they spent a lot of money without doing the research to realize there's nowhere that wants to/ can operate a locomotive that large.
Unfortunately that's the truth.
Big Jim posted:645 posted:One more thing - don't forget to round up some coaches so people can ride behind 611 as the locomotive by itself is "useless" without support equipment/facilities.
Or, how about some gondolas and mount some seating...so people can hear the locomotive work!
That's the issue with all modern excursions. With modern passenger cars used today with windows that don't open. You can't hear the engine, smell the coal smoke, Etc etc. I'd rather chase the train than ride sadly
I'd like to see the 611 run as much as the next guy, but it's too big to run anywhere that would want it and places that can handle it don't want to.
J 611 posted:In another thread on main O gauge forum Rich M. mentioned that NS would only be allowing steam deadhead moves on their rails next year (2018). No NS sponsored excursions or Amtrak sponsored excursions on NS rails as they want to focus on the freight business. This means 611's only potential opportunities to operate in 2018 and the foreseeable future are on short lines. Maybe she can venture to Ohio like the 765 has in years past.
I sure would like to see the source for that information (official source not a post on a forum). The 611 is currently getting its annual inspection and repairs at Spencer, so it must have somewhere to run in 2018. Also NS has sunk a lot of money into 611, I doubt they would give up on it so quickly.
The NS donation and support was under different leadership.
J 611 posted:. Maybe she can venture to Ohio like the 765 has in years past.
and then what?...
hullmat991 posted:J 611 posted:In another thread on main O gauge forum Rich M. mentioned that NS would only be allowing steam deadhead moves on their rails next year (2018). No NS sponsored excursions or Amtrak sponsored excursions on NS rails as they want to focus on the freight business. This means 611's only potential opportunities to operate in 2018 and the foreseeable future are on short lines. Maybe she can venture to Ohio like the 765 has in years past.
I sure would like to see the source for that information (official source not a post on a forum). The 611 is currently getting its annual inspection and repairs at Spencer, so it must have somewhere to run in 2018. Also NS has sunk a lot of money into 611, I doubt they would give up on it so quickly.
I highly doubt anybody in the board room at NS truly worries about the 611's status for this year.....
Additionally, this past year's trips did not sell well from what I heard particularly for the Roanoke trips to Lynchburg and Radford. I don't you'll see as many trips in the south central areas of Virginia like you did last year. Maybe one Blue Ridge weekend if anything.
hullmat991 posted:J 611 posted:In another thread on main O gauge forum Rich M. mentioned that NS would only be allowing steam deadhead moves on their rails next year (2018). No NS sponsored excursions or Amtrak sponsored excursions on NS rails as they want to focus on the freight business. This means 611's only potential opportunities to operate in 2018 and the foreseeable future are on short lines. Maybe she can venture to Ohio like the 765 has in years past.
I sure would like to see the source for that information (official source not a post on a forum). The 611 is currently getting its annual inspection and repairs at Spencer, so it must have somewhere to run in 2018. Also NS has sunk a lot of money into 611, I doubt they would give up on it so quickly.
I feel like Rich Melvin has a pretty good idea of what’s going on in the big steam world...
Jim Berger posted:J 611 posted:. Maybe she can venture to Ohio like the 765 has in years past.
and then what?...
Run on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic like 765 did barring any weight/size issues.
Bring it to Chicago and run it on the Metra/Rock Island line like 765 did last year. Unfortunately it'll cost a fortune to bring it up here though. Have to dream sometimes.
I know it's a paradox, but ticket prices are a huge problem. I have ridden behind 611, but for a pretty penny. I completely understand that there are enormous costs to running excursions, but it's hard to get families to ride the train when coach tickets are over $100. I wonder if a reduction in ticket price would cause an increase in sales, leading to a net gain of profit. Not saying this is a revolutionary idea, but just my two cents (pardon the pun).
Will Ebbert posted:I know it's a paradox, but ticket prices are a huge problem. I have ridden behind 611, but for a pretty penny. I completely understand that there are enormous costs to running excursions, but it's hard to get families to ride the train when coach tickets are over $100. I wonder if a reduction in ticket price would cause an increase in sales, leading to a net gain of profit. Not saying this is a revolutionary idea, but just my two cents (pardon the pun).
I agree. There are a lot of non-profit events, not just train riding, where the cost have gotten to the point the common man, male or female, cannot afford to go. If a museum wanted to demo steam, maybe the larger of the live steam models might be a better way to go.
Will Ebbert posted:I know it's a paradox, but ticket prices are a huge problem. I have ridden behind 611, but for a pretty penny. I completely understand that there are enormous costs to running excursions, but it's hard to get families to ride the train when coach tickets are over $100. I wonder if a reduction in ticket price would cause an increase in sales, leading to a net gain of profit. Not saying this is a revolutionary idea, but just my two cents (pardon the pun).
I agree. I don't see how any one but the very well to do can afford to take their family on trips! Add in the "non-hearing" factor and you have a recipe for failure. I have a strong suspicion that the public wising up may have been the reason for the lack of ticket sales.
On a related topic, with the advent of the new AMTRAK service out of Roanoke, VA, there were trips where one could ride one-way on a private passenger car added on the rear of the regular AMTRAK train between Roanoke and Washington D.C. The price for the privilege to ride in the luxury on one of these cars came very close to the $300 mark. On the other hand, AMTRAK offered a one-way trip for a very limited time from Roanoke to DC for $25. Just saying...
I know I'm a little biased, but if you want open window, affordable steam, including a photo run by, TVRM's Summerville Steam Special is the way to go. Especially the double header.
Will Ebbert posted:I know it's a paradox, but ticket prices are a huge problem. I have ridden behind 611, but for a pretty penny. I completely understand that there are enormous costs to running excursions, but it's hard to get families to ride the train when coach tickets are over $100. I wonder if a reduction in ticket price would cause an increase in sales, leading to a net gain of profit. Not saying this is a revolutionary idea, but just my two cents (pardon the pun).
Totally agree. We only rode coach this past April but it was pricey. It was just me and the wife. Had fun, but wouldn't do it again because it's just too expensive.
superwarp1 posted:Big Jim posted:645 posted:One more thing - don't forget to round up some coaches so people can ride behind 611 as the locomotive by itself is "useless" without support equipment/facilities.
Or, how about some gondolas and mount some seating...so people can hear the locomotive work!
That's the issue with all modern excursions. With modern passenger cars used today with windows that don't open. You can't hear the engine, smell the coal smoke, Etc etc. I'd rather chase the train than ride sadly
Don't know about sales on the 2017 765 trips from Joliet to Chicago. Friends who took the 2016 trip to Wisconsin and back were a bit upset of no run by for them while folks who didn't pay a penny towards the trip sped from grade crossing to grade crossing to see it go buy. They enjoyed the trip riding in the vintage full dome immensely, but in the end decided against any more trips.
Will Ebbert posted:I think they'll keep firing it up, wasting flue time, charging people $25 to blow the whistle and $611 to piddle around and realize they spent a lot of money without doing the research to realize there's nowhere that wants to/ can operate a locomotive that large.
Flue time would tick away regardless of whether it's fired up or not. Revenue is revenue, even if it's "piddly" work, especially when there aren't many places the 611 can go.
If you think all the money and effort was invested just to only to excursions every year, that would be a pretty narrow investment to make and all too dependent on third party support. The old excursion model is pretty much dead. When you have assets like the 611 or 765, you have to create new opportunities to make it relevant, engaging, exciting, educational etc. because you can't depend on it ever being 1985 again. If 2009-2017 was anything like the mid-to-late 1990s, the FWRHS would be out of business.
BobbyD posted:Don't know about sales on the 2017 765 trips from Joliet to Chicago. Friends who took the 2016 trip to Wisconsin and back were a bit upset of no run by for them while folks who didn't pay a penny towards the trip sped from grade crossing to grade crossing to see it go buy. They enjoyed the trip riding in the vintage full dome immensely, but in the end decided against any more trips.
As a note, we did perform a runby at the station at the conclusion of the the Varsity trip in 2016. It's likely they got off before that stop.
For 2017, each of our Joliet Rocket trips had open vestibules and a runby or a "run-in" where the passengers were lined up along the platform at LaSalle Street Station while the 765 marched in with the throttle open and air set.
The locomotive operators are at the total mercy of the host railroads just to run a trip, let alone guarantee amenities like open windows, vestibules or runbys. Our hosts at Metra knew that the photo/video opportunities were an important part of the experience and when the tight schedule wouldn't allow a traditional photo runby, we got creative and had the engine pull into the station - to loud applause from the ticket holding passengers. We even offered Railfan Passes and sold a few thousand dollars in tickets from people who chased or wanted to attend the event at LaSalle Street Station.
While we had a healthy percentage of self-identified railroad enthusiasts on-board, our customers overall were looking for something memorable and experience-driven and their experience hinged on the food and schedule and air conditioning instead of runbys or open vestibules. If an operator can't offer traditional value-added options, they need to add another dimension to the experience. It has to be more than just a train ride.
I'm sure a number of us would be content with that open air gondola, but you won't find that on a Class 1. FWRHS is working on a creative solution to see what the market will support by offering something akin the ultimate railfan experience next year, so I hope it'll pan out. I know VMT is investing more thought into their on-board experience as well. That's where the operators can really turn the wallflowers into supporters. These folks aren't decrying the lack of runbys or open vestibules - but you'll never hear the end of it if the AC goes out or the food is cold.
The real audience for these operations do not drink in the coal soot like the rest of us, but if we do our job correctly, they'll come back again because something about the experience was worth it and not always in the way that we remember.
nathansixchime posted:As a note, we did perform a runby at the station at the conclusion of the the Varsity trip in 2016. It's likely they got off before that stop.
They were there along with the 400,000 foamers rushing between them and the engine in their images
Understand scheduling and those who think they can get off and then back on the train in the middle of nowhere using a Pullman step stool.
If Rich knows what he’s talking about then that must be true, that NS no longer wants to deal with the hassle of hosting excursions. This year is going to be like 1995 all over again. Wick is no longer in charge at NS so he can no longer say I want to keep the steam going. Jim Squires is probably more of a bean counter and NS is probably looking to cut costs. VMT is going to have look at other things for revenue like night photo shoots with 611 at VMT, etc. Maybe NS will let it go back to Spencer where it can offer short rides around the museum unlike at VMT. The mainline excursions are over for the foreseeable future. Well, they have the Amtrak private car trips in the spring. I figured steam would go away sometime after Wick left. He was the only reason it was back in the first place and why 611 was restored. The 21st program was only intended to last through 2015 and after that was a bonus. Now, you’ll have to go to TVRM, GSMR, or RBMN for longer steam rides. Or CVSR with 765. SRI in Owosso. 844 from Denver to Cheyenne July 21.
If you want to see double heading steam locomotives, TVRM is the place to go. Open air cars, vestibules, first class cars, dining cars, etc.
I heard something 765 might go to Owosso this year. Doubleheader with 1225? TVRM is nice but 425 is a lot closer to me. I’m going to watch RBMN and CNJ 113’s sites to see what rides they offer this year. Port Clinton and Reading are only 26 miles west of me. I guess 765’s and 611’s operators need to think outside the box and look toward steam friendly short lines/regionals to operate excursions on. Genessee and Wyoming is NOT one of them. They want nothing to do with excursions, but they are allowing a P&W diesel excursion out of Worcester, Mass. this year. Pan Am is also anti excursion. What about lines like Wheeling and Lake Erie, are they excursion friendly? Nittany and Bald Eagle near Altoona is. They run up to Lock Haven. So I guess NS is giving VMT the cold shoulder and not even allowing Amtrak steam trips with 611. They were supposed to take 611 to new markets for excursions. NS must have changed their minds since last year, they were open to Roanoke area 611 excursions in 2018 in an article from last year. But they auctioned the 5 coaches last year for a reason.
SJC posted:mark s posted:......additionally, a gondola with seats would need to be provided for the lawyers, who will be initiating lawsuits for the "victims" of cinders in the eyes in the open gons !!!!! (I agree, open gons are totally neat on steam excursions, but, alas, a pleasure from a bye-gone era)
The Blue Mountain & Reading has been doing this, standing room only, on certain trips lately. Their #425 will blow your eardrums out.
I agree with that. 425 is one of the two loudest engines I have been around, the other being Frisco 1522.
Loud as in the chuff, whistle, or both? I’ve ridden behind 425 a few times but never in an open gondola like they have now which is normally on the bike train or something. Does the UP allow open vestibules on 844 excursions? How about steam excursions on BNSF?
Robert K posted:Loud as in the chuff, whistle, or both? I’ve ridden behind 425 a few times but never in an open gondola like they have now which is normally on the bike train or something. Does the UP allow open vestibules on 844 excursions? How about steam excursions on BNSF?
yes to BNSF and UP.but my question is why do the western steam groups sell better then eastern? if we compare the Friends of the 4449 to Fire up 611 the only three things that are different are less trips,faster speed and The Friends give more time to sell tickets. most of the time it cost more to ride behind the 4449 then 611.so why does 4449 sell better.
645 posted:Doesn't matter what you or I think - if there is no place for 611 to operate it will remain cold.
If you are serious about wanting to see 611 run again how about buying a short line railroad and making arrangements for 611 to operate on same? This way you can avoid having to deal with NS and Amtrak to allow 611 to operate. One more thing - don't forget to round up some coaches so people can ride behind 611 as the locomotive by itself is "useless" without support equipment/facilities.
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John 2584 posted:Robert K posted:Loud as in the chuff, whistle, or both? I’ve ridden behind 425 a few times but never in an open gondola like they have now which is normally on the bike train or something. Does the UP allow open vestibules on 844 excursions? How about steam excursions on BNSF?
yes to BNSF and UP.but my question is why do the western steam groups sell better then eastern? if we compare the Friends of the 4449 to Fire up 611 the only three things that are different are less trips,faster speed and The Friends give more time to sell tickets. most of the time it cost more to ride behind the 4449 then 611.so why does 4449 sell better.
Here are a few reasons why SP 4449 tickets, regardless of price, "sell better" than N&W 611.
1) No 40 MPH speed restriction on BNSF for SP 4449!
2) One of the best scenic railroad lines in the U.S., and possibly in the world. The BNSF Columbia River route, The BNSF Deschutes River Canyon, and the BNSF Stampede Pass line are unparalleled.
3) Just my opinion but, the SP 4449 just my have a "larger following" throughout the world, than #611.
4) Opposing trains do NOT have to stop when a passenger train (611 excursion or Amtrak) passes or overtakes them, per NS policy.
So you are saying that Washington and Oregon are more scenic than Virginia and North Carolina? 611 trips were somewhat popular, the Asheville trip sold out in minutes. But if NS no longer wants the headaches of having the general public on its property and all the nuts that tresspass on their property to get that perfect shot then that’s their right. We just have to accept that and patronize railroads that allow excursions.
Hot Water posted:John 2584 posted:Robert K posted:Loud as in the chuff, whistle, or both? I’ve ridden behind 425 a few times but never in an open gondola like they have now which is normally on the bike train or something. Does the UP allow open vestibules on 844 excursions? How about steam excursions on BNSF?
yes to BNSF and UP.but my question is why do the western steam groups sell better then eastern? if we compare the Friends of the 4449 to Fire up 611 the only three things that are different are less trips,faster speed and The Friends give more time to sell tickets. most of the time it cost more to ride behind the 4449 then 611.so why does 4449 sell better.
Here are a few reasons why SP 4449 tickets, regardless of price, "sell better" than N&W 611.
1) No 40 MPH speed restriction on BNSF for SP 4449!
2) One of the best scenic railroad lines in the U.S., and possibly in the world. The BNSF Columbia River route, The BNSF Deschutes River Canyon, and the BNSF Stampede Pass line are unparalleled.
3) Just my opinion but, the SP 4449 just my have a "larger following" throughout the world, than #611.
4) Opposing trains do NOT have to stop when a passenger train (611 excursion or Amtrak) passes or overtakes them, per NS policy.
Jack,
During the Tennessee Valley excursions, they were stopping freight traffic, but I'm not aware of any freights or Amtrak trains that have been stopped for the 611 excursions. It appears they did away with that policy after the 2014 mess up in Kentucky.
I think a lot of the ticket sales issues are a multi-faceted problem. Price is certainly a big one, and you are hurting the mom/dad/kids or grandparents/kids market, which was a huge market in the old program. Marketing and saturation of certain markets are a huge deal as well. Once you are running the same areas over and over again with multiple weekends drawing from the same amount of ticket buyers, you're going to saturate the market.
Spencer and Greensboro are only 50 miles apart, and by the time you run a weekend of trips out of Spencer, a weekend of trips out of Greensboro, and another Amtrak diesel weekend out of Spencer in the fall, you can only sell so many tickets. Asheville sold well, but with the line downgraded to 25mph, you can't run 140 miles each way in one day. Could an overnight trip work? Possibly, if NS would approve it. It's the closest thing we have in the east to a Bend-type trip.
Roanoke and Lynchburg are similar situations being 50 miles apart, and when you are running multiple days of half day trips out of Roanoke, that means you have to sell a lot more tickets as opposed to a day-trip out of Roanoke to Bluefield or Bristol, which hasn't been done since the 90s. Those would sell quickly, but they haven't been done for various reasons. At best, Lynchburg to Petersburg isn't exactly the most scenic line on the NS system, and you're competing with higher prices compared to the Roanoke weekend over a better route.
The Manassas trips are in a similar situation to Roanoke where you are running three half-day trips over the same route in two days as opposed to a weekend of two full-day excursions on different routes. There are areas on the NS system that are steam-starved that would sell out quickly given the chance, but the 611 has been confined to certain lines since coming back. Beggars can't be choosers, but but I suspect some of these wounds are self-inflicted, either by choice or having a lack of options that would be approved by the host railroad.
To give a reasonable comparison to the west coast, presuming you could get track time, could the Friends of the 4449 sell out multiple years of running 4 weekends a year between Portland, Eugene, Tacoma and Seattle, with a bunch those being half-day trips? I suspect the first year would sell pretty good. By the 3rd year with little variation in available trackage, would those people still be coming out to ride? You guys have done a great job, but since the engine runs so infrequently comparatively speaking, each trip becomes a major event, and therefore becomes a slightly easier sell. If 611 operated one weekend a year, moving those tickets would be easier.
Added to this, I suspect marketing and having a large mailing list built up through years of operation has some effect as well. The Watauga Valley NRHS group survived the lean years in the east by getting several of their cars Amtrak certified (and have 4 cars out roaming the country), and they have that mailing list built up from the 80s and 90s. They did the marketing for the Bristol, VA trips during the 21st Century Steam Program, and those trips consistently sold out quickly, even though they ran the same trips every year. Obviously, Watauga Valley (and the Friends of the 4449) know how to get the word out to the people, where the 611 group is somewhat starting from scratch.
On the subject of selling tickets, sealing your train is also going to get rid of your hardcore railfan contingent market, although it's anyone's guess how big that market is these days---50 people per trip? Maybe less? Who knows. It is a market, but a shrinking one.
I don't think there are any easy answers to all of this, and all the groups are fighting the same situation. It's marginally easier on the east coast since a lot of the private cars that would be used to fill out your train are roughly "over here" and the deadhead costs don't kill you quite as bad, but it's still a problem nonetheless.
I wish there was a magic formula for this...
Robert K posted:So you are saying that Washington and Oregon are more scenic than Virginia and North Carolina?
Yes; and I'm saying that as a PA native. The landscape out west is absolutely spectacular beyond compare - be it on the Plains, winding through the Rockys, along the Columbia River Gorge, or up and down the west coast.
kgdjpubs posted:...sealing your train is also going to get rid of your hardcore railfan contingent market, although it's anyone's guess how big that market is these days---50 people per trip? Maybe less? Who knows. It is a market, but a shrinking one.
If steam locomotive operators had to rely on the “hardcore rail fan contingent” to survive, they would all be parked, rusting and dead.
Hardcore rail fans don’t buy tickets. They are not the target market and never have been. Re-read Kelly’s post above about the Joliet Rocket.
hullmat991 posted:Robert K posted:So you are saying that Washington and Oregon are more scenic than Virginia and North Carolina?
Yes; and I'm saying that as a PA native. The landscape out west is absolutely spectacular beyond compare - be it on the Plains, winding through the Rockys, along the Columbia River Gorge, or up and down the west coast.
I don't necessarily know if it's better, but it's certainly more wide open in the west. The east is very treed-in and getting moreso by the year. Pennsylvania in particular is very bad. That said, I'd put the Southern Loops in NC, CSX's Clinchfield line or the the C&O/CSX line through the New River Gorge and the mountain to Clifton Forge against anything the west has, and I think they can hold their own comfortably, and those are just a few. It's a different kind of mountain railroading, but no less spectacular.
Being able to see the wide expanses of the west where the foliage isn't nearly as thick, and the mountains are taller and "rougher" is certainly an eye-opening experience to someone who is used to the lush green tight confines of the east coast.
I will say the expanse of the mountains in the west is impressive as well, as opposed to a relatively narrow 50-100 mile swath that you might find on the east coast. In the west, you can go for hundreds of miles sometimes and still be in the mountains.
OGR Webmaster posted:kgdjpubs posted:...sealing your train is also going to get rid of your hardcore railfan contingent market, although it's anyone's guess how big that market is these days---50 people per trip? Maybe less? Who knows. It is a market, but a shrinking one.If steam locomotive operators had to rely on the “hardcore rail fan contingent” to survive, they would all be parked, rusting and dead.
Hardcore rail fans don’t buy tickets. They are not the target market and never have been. Re-read Kelly’s post above about the Joliet Rocket.
I think the failure of the Galesburg trips, a train-riding experience that would have been the best in 20 years on the east coast, proved that moreso than the Joliet Rocket. Fast running behind steam, open vestibules and practically impossible to chase seemed like a train riding dream. Obviously, I'm in the minority.
Speaking of which, I was very happy to see that trying something new on the Joliet runs seems to have worked! I see a lot of people that complain about the lack of vestibules and such on the NS program that would buy a ticket otherwise, but my theory is that you'd be lucky to fill 1-2 passenger cars with them if they actually purchased a ticket. The market is, admittedly, tiny.
the biggest difference is not where they run but how they do things. 3 months lead time you are only targeting local people and you can do that so often. But have 6 month lead time with good scenery or a good or novel experience, then you can get places.If you look at the Friends of 261 they do a cross between NS steam trips and AOE and have dove very well with that
We're working on an addition to the Joliet Rocket that will test the market for something that is more of an "enhanced" experience that's one up on open-vestibules. It should be second best to riding in the tool car. Keep your September open...
