What does New in Box mean when buying from a dealer?

My definition of New in the BOX is sealed, never ran. Or it has been taken out of the box once. 

Well, the first thing you should do is contact the dealer directly and allow him the possibility to correct the issue.

If it's not to your liking, it's a free market-take your business else where.  As a 25 yr customer, I'm sure they'll want to correct it.

Advertized as new in the box means just that, anything else is something else and should be disclosed.

I've found a lot of abuse when it comes to the use of "New" when it comes to giving an accurate description.

"New" means, well, new, unused, complete, un damaged, and it should include un opened.

if it has been opened, it should be noted. If it's been removed for inspection, it should be noted. If it's "New" but has been on display, it should be noted.

I've contact sellers who list as new, but I can see rail marks on the wheels, when confronted, he simply blew it off with " well it looks new to me".

Concerning your issue, you have a legimant complaint. New with no paperwork? I don't think so.

NIB does NOT mean missing manual, packing materials, shipping materials, etc.

 

As mentioned, contact the LHS let him know what you need from him to make this right--politely, but firmly, of course.  Good luck.

PP Plumbing

Soots Chimney Sweep

 

Return it.

If it is packed wrong,  missing packing, manuals, etc., then it certainly is not new.

Then cross this dealer off your list.

Who is the dealer you are talking about?You want to get on here and rant and bang away at your keyboard about your problem but some how you want to protect the merchant by not implicating them.HUM???

If the original poster mentions the dealer, this thread will be deleted. Its against the rules.
Why do you need to know? Should he do something different based on which dealer is involved? The original poster wrote that this was the second time this has happened.

That is a New-Open Box (NOB) item. Then you may have expected some missing small items or packing issues. Did your discount allow for those?

 

Call the dealer, don't tell us first. Tell us after you called the dealer and he made it right.(or not). Then drop their name.

Just a thought. My Dealer, when a train arrived, would check it out before putting it on the shelve, or delivery to a customer. This was to check it out. Well, happened that an engine I purchased had the manual and smoke missing. I called him up, and received a call several hours later that he had the items, just forgot to return to box. He always checked all boxed items out. To me, they were always new, and I knew I received a complete working item.

Frankly, the cynical side of me always says that "NIB" means:

 

-It's in the box

-The seller thinks it is in good-enough shape to represent as new

-They are asking as much as they think this loco could possibly bring.

 

I also note that "new" is not defined.  To me it means "never run" or run just enough to verify everything works, but I've bought locos with what had to be twenty or more hours of roller wear sold as "new" - they were in good shape, but not really "new."  I have met people who treat the term as you might for a new car - if it's the latest model it is a "new" car.

 

caveat emptor - always caveat emptor

quote:

Call the dealer, don't tell us first. Tell us after you called the dealer and he made it right.(or not). Then drop their name.

 

I think Mike wanted to know whether others thought he should make an issue of this. As I wrote earlier, under no circumstances can he reveal the name of the dealer.

IMO, as long as the item has never been run or scratched, it can be sold as "new". It is common to take items out of the box to display them at shops and train shows. As long as they are not badly handled they remain  in new condition. If you are concerned look at the wheels for running marks.  As for someone putting the item back in the box the wrong way (and the engine has experienced no damage) it remains new in an opened box. I would say that this qualifies the item to be sold at a discount.  

FYI Their was no extra discount just standard pricing from your typical dealer. 

I concur. One very large eBay seller uses it frequently to demand higher prices. I bought a NIB 3rd Rail locomotive that turned out to be BIB (Broke in Box). The damage was obvious without even removing it from the box. Since there was a picture of a hand written piece of paper on the eBay listing "proving" it was in perfect condition, no satisfaction was offered. I could have made a stink with eBay, but it I really wanted the locomotive and had seen few offered before this one.

 

Jeff at JDS Ltd ultimately repaired it for me (and did a beautiful job). 

 

Gilly

 

A picture of a handwritten note is just that and it's value should be considered. Don't be fooled like me.

The intent was not to rant but to ask opinions from others as to what they consider NIB. To me it has always meant it is new as issued from factory and therefore sealed. it was represented to be new in box. Larger dealers never check each loco before shipping its simply not economical.

 

I have never understood why people and dealers don't disclose true condition unless they honestly didn't know. I have found by fully disclosing things it quite often brings the buyer closer not further away from making a purchase. At least this is my experience and  practice when selling things.

I apologize if you regard my last post as a rant.

 

Gilly 

I agree with your notion of NIB...

 

This is what I would do (not telling you what to do ):

Call the dealer and "YOU" give him two options: full refund or a good discount (you decide what "good" discount is) IF the items is operational or even needs some repairs, it should be reflected in the discount.

This way, may be you and the dealer can save some time and money and everyone can have a beer and be happy

Didn't take it that way at all! No problem here. Thanks for the comments

NIB to me means exactly that. unopened, unused.

Yes I understand that is not always the case. Opened and inspected is OK but it should be repacked the way it came. I agree you got someone's return.

In reality a real  store dealer definition of new should have no wiggle room.  Everybody knows what new really means.  If you're talking about some other type of seller then  the possibilities are endless.  Rich

NIB, to me, means exactly, and expressly that: New in box, unopened, delivered sealed from the factory.  You pay a premium for that, and expect a discount on display models on every other product in the world, it should be no different for our trains.  that is what the term NIB means, as opposed to just saying new, and ANY reputable seller will make pains to mention if the box has been opened for ANY reason on a new item.  I'll grant that the seller may have just made a mistake, but if it were me, I would return for either an actually new in box product, or a refund.  This is especially appalling to me as the only things a local hobby shop has over buying product online is that they are supposed to be creditable in selling a legitimate product, and supposed to offer service.  When you get a better guaranty of a product on the big auction site, your LHS may as well close the doors.  

I ran a hobby shop for ten years and "New in the box" meant just that. Brand new unused in the original carton with all the packaging and manuals with a factory warranty. If the carton was shelf worn or the item was test run it would be noted.

However when purchasing from E-Bay or an other private sale "New in the box" is open to broad interpretation.

Some customers were fussy. I had a couple of them that would not purchase an item if the carton had been opened for any reason.

 

Theres really no excuse for improper packing and missing items. Iv'e purchased NIB stuff that was out of the box on display.

 

When I received it the dealer packed it just as it came from china, zero indication it was ever out of the box. This is how it should be done.

 

As others have said, no point in complaining here. Take it up with the dealer. There really is no "grey area" to NIB. Either its all there and unrun, or it isn't.

yep new does mean never opened; never run; never meddled with. You should strongly consider BigBoys' sage advice....DO MAKE A STINK to the dealer about this jive "selling transaction".  It is the sellers responsibilty to disclose all pertinent info about the item.  Not "cover up and run" like a coward.

 

 Unopened is unopened.

NIB is new unused, complete, free of un-noted, non-production flaws.

If handled, um.. without, you cant know anything without inspection, so..if it possibly lightly handled/tested(though tests type/time/distance should be noted), even displayed for a short time, still NIB to me..if complete.

 "Like new" lightly handled, minor flaw from?, excessive testing. 

 Proper tests are done on rollers now days, which don't leave scuffed flanges on pilot & trailing wheels.

 A "display model" notes the possibility of heavy handling, and/or some customer operations during display, therefor "used". But the possibility of still being "like new" exists.

"Open box"- Not tested, or poured over visually, left to the handling of the general public, or pulled from a back room without any idea of its original reason for being there, returned.

 

 

 

   The dealer did fail you with the completeness of the packaging. If this were an "investment" you would be at quite the disadvantage.

  My bet is it was grabbed from a test bench for shipping to you, or put away too quickly by a handler. Might have been the "new guy", lack of, or too much coffee that day, etc. If that's how it was... on a shelf.. even in a case, its "Open Box"

 

 Two mistakes in twenty five years sounds pretty human to me. Give them a chance to make it right. Delay only makes it harder on you both, and with the packaging.. well how long do you hold on to loose packaging? 

 

While base expectations may not have been met here. If you expect 'mint" as a buyer, you should both ask about it, and should state it pre-purchase. And do so  repeatedly, every time. Maybe shop in person if you "tend to be fussy".(not an accusation, I can't know)

  Maybe dealers should consider a premium charge for pre-sale inspection, and grading of "mint" C-9, C-10 items. It works well enough in other "areas" of collecting.   

I am glad to see this Thread, New in Box, simply not taken out....Whoever the Dealer/Store, They should be contacted concerning their Packaging of this expensive set.

The engine and tender have electronics that are easily damaged. Also, the stripes are another situation Altogether. (Engine stripe matching the tender stripe).Hopefully, the set will run and be Fun. This set did not come packaged in a Lionel Gift Box, just the cars and engines in their generic blue and orange boxes in a cardboard box. So, you can see Packaging for shipping is the utmost important factor here. Happy Railroading....

I was with you until that last statement.

 

New items should be new items, not a premium for not being defective/damaged/blemished, etc..

 

Maybe I misunderstood that part of your post.

 

-Dave

Agree with earlier post this should be brought to the dealers attention and possibly to the manufacturer to let them know how their product is represented by the dealer.

 

But packaging aside, you do not mention if you put it on the tracks and did it run?

 

NIB  to me means never taken out.   MIB  means to me taken out and in perfect shape.

Years ago when I collected 1:18 die cast automobiles I received a car that was dusty,  and had broken and missing parts,  like some child had played with it.   I had purchased plenty of nib cars from him and they were exactly that.   I contacted him and he gave me a fat discount and was very apologetic.

In the end I never purchased from him again.   I was a good customer too.

Let us know how it all pans out.   Don't accept it if it's not to your satisfaction.

To me,new in box,is just what it says.  I expect factory wrap.  Anything less and it goes back.  Enough already.

Norm

Defects/blemishes/ and damage are Mfg issues on a sealed box, not a dealers.

  Finding a truly "mint" anything requires much time for grading and "immediate" elimination of better stock being found, by chance, on ones shelves. Hence you have devalued the rest ever so slightly. Paying a dealer a search premium can make them more attentive to fussy desires.

 

 Originally Posted by Norm:

 

I expect "factory wrap*". Anything less, and it goes back.

*Of course. If it was shrink wrapped originally, and that's how you prefer it.

 

But that still leaves me curious how some want an unopened box, to be guaranteed at 100% upon arrival. It cant even be verified by them out of the factory without breaking your criteria. Again a Mfg issue, unless a mistake has been made.

 

Not knowing the whole story, Was it a wise move though? You had a vender willing to cater, and adjust to your complaint, with apologie$. Mistakes happen. Owning up to them, and correction, is "everything" to me as a customer anymore.

Often I would have a customer in the store that wanted to see a few items before making a purchase. Sometimes it may be on display and the last one in my inventory. If I opened the carton I opened it carefully, not to damage it and repacked it correctly and making sure all the papers are included. I also let telephone customers know If the carton was opened or the Item was on display.

If a customer wants something factory sealed, he should ask for it 

A store I have done business with over the years got several Overland SD70Ace the the George Bush paint scheme. The store owner would not allow any of these to be taken out of the box for viewing. She said that at $2000+ per model, NO WAY.

 

Dick

Interesting remarks.

 

I was wondering why I don't see any answers from some of our larger sponsors.

 

I certainly would value their remarks as to what they think new in the box means.

 

Just a thought.

 

Larry

 

We agree to disagree on that point. 

 

I refuse to transfer the risk to myself in terms of trying to get resolution from the manufacturer at the point of sale.  I open the item I am buying for inspection and a brief test if it's an engine, and if it's got a significant issue, I will ask if they have any other not spoken for items to see if there is a better one.  If no replacement is available (BTO, you know!), or I ordered the only one, then the item is simply refused for delivery.

 

If the overall initial quality was better and there were fewer issues (many silly/stupid manufacturing goofs), it would not come to this.

 

-Dave