In a past life involving factory operations, we had a long list of items to implement for low temperatures. Would like to hear from our experts on what things must be done for low temperatures involving locomotives or various railroad operations.
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For the old first and second generation diesels, the RR's kept them running 24 hrs/day so the water in the cooling system didnt freeze and damage the locomotive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HmkSUvyGG4
This is a five minute video from my YouTube channel showing a winter crew change at the Amtrak Station, Pontiac Michigan. You will see the crew do a walk around to check for issues on a cold winter day.
Hope to see you out rail-fanning. Gary 🚂
The MBTA will keep small fires burning on the switches. I've always wondered what specific parts they're keeping warm and what they are burning.
We used to live along side the LIRR Farmingdale station. Just east of the station was an old siding that used to serve a garden center and feed store. The RR parked a MP-15 there one January with the engine idling 24 hrs a day. After many calls to complain about the noise they finally moved the engine. I was told that they keep them running in cold weather to prevent start-up issues.
The fires on the switches keep the points and all moving parts warm so they don't freeze in one position. Most RR's burn propane or nat gas.
The New York City Transit Authority has an extensive 85 page book to implement Winter Response plans There are 5 different plans and each one has its responses spelled out for every department that will be involved. It includes listings of every station and every conceivable option. Plan 1 is the the mildest plan calls for Road Car inspectors to be at every terminal and suspension of Mobile wash programs when temps go below 28 degrees or 3 inches of snow expected. It includes assigning crews to clear platforms and salting operations. Plan 5 is the worst and calls for full suspension of service with contingencies to rescue trapped customers and have rescue diesels available A lot of time went into writing it and it works pretty good.
The normal day to day preparations that they have been installing is switch heaters that run off the third rail and can be activated from the control center The heaters warm the throw bars and points so the motors don't bind up They also started installed covers over the switches to prevent snow and ice from building up on the throw bars
@Matt_GNo27 posted:The MBTA will keep small fires burning on the switches. I've always wondered what specific parts they're keeping warm
The movable portions, such as the points.
and what they are burning.
Propane, or natural gas if available.
I didn’t see shorter trains listed on here, but I definitely remember BNSF doing that when I worked at their Northtown Yard, but I don’t remember the reason, if there were issues with the air connections themselves between cars or different issue with the air.
A little bit of snow (1/8” or so) or frost on top of the rail cause massive issues for hump yards as there is allot of unexpected energy loss associated with it, and so it was not uncommon to have another engine set and crew on needed to cleared snow between hump drags by having the engine go into each of the bowl tracks from the top of the hump other wise there would be allot of car stalls in the switching area.
I can also remember during a couple of the more aggressive storms, where there were times with just too much snow on the hump where the cleared rail tracks in deeper snow would fill with new snow quickly from wind blowing that could not be cleared with only engines running down each of the bowl routes. This combined with frozen switches because of freeze thaw cycles with water/ice accumulating in tie cribs where the throw rod is, they would have to use the snow jet. This was expensive to run because it used allot of fuel. I only saw it used a couple of times.
Chicago Transit Authority
Up until 2008 that i know of trains would be keyed on in yard and switch heaters turned on and 3rd rail heat on as well along the system. Sometimes 3rd rail scrapers on trains would be lowered depending on conditions of snow and ice.
Snow machines would be on the ready.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:For the old first and second generation diesels, the RR's kept them running 24 hrs/day so the water in the cooling system didnt freeze and damage the locomotive.
No antifreeze still to this day.
On very cold days/climates, you actually leave the locomotives in run and as high as notch 2 as well
Great info! Now imagine what they had to do 80 years ago, during the age of steam , to keep every thing running in the winter
I worked for a large western railroad. The problem we had keeping the trains running was with air brakes. First is that the extreme cold drives all the water out of the air, which comes out as ice. The ice could build up at the low points, usually at the glad hands on the air brake hoses. If air would not flow down the length of the train, crews would go out and break the glad hands and knock the ice out. The other problem was that rubber gets hard and shrinks when it gets cold. Again the problem was getting air down the length of the train. Leaking gaskets had to be tightened or replaced.
Steel becomes more brittle at very low temperatures. During very cold winters the number of broken wheel derailments goes up. To compensate for this, durning very cold weather trains were run slower.
As others indicated, locomotives were kept warm by leaving them running. The problem with doing this was the diesel fuel turns to a gel when it gets really cold. To compensate for this warm fuel was returned to the fuel tank right where the fuel inlet pipe was drawing fuel out of the tank. In case an engine did shut down, they were equipped with multiple automatic water drains that would open when they got cold. This did not always work. Locomotives moving through air that was 30 below zero at 50 mph would cool so fast that when they shut down the automatic drain valves could not get the water out of the locos fast enough to keep them from freezing. Most freeze damage was repairable, but required a lot of expensive parts.
@Matt_GNo27 posted:The MBTA will keep small fires burning on the switches. I've always wondered what specific parts they're keeping warm and what they are burning.
I guess I should go downstairs this morning and start 16 fires on my 022 switches.
Just kidding, LOL.
Seriously, I find this to be a very interesting topic. Arnold
This is a good link too from UP with some interesting details: https://www.up.com/customers/t...weather-response.htm
Who knew "air forced one" was involved?
Where I lived and railroaded the most, we typically didn't have blizzards/etc. The rare snow/teen temps were a big deal because we weren't equipped to handle it. Here's a few pics to illustrate some of the hard ships of railroading in such conditions.
First, visibility is significantly reduced.
This slows everything down. Plus, the step ways and grabs ice over, further slowing things down on account of a full stop for the ground man to board or step off.
The switch locks freeze solid. Here's a ground crew thawing one out with a fusee.
Also, portions of the switches have to be cleaned out before they can be thrown. When switching in a yard during heavy snow, you'll have to clean the same switch more than once.
During such conditions you pretty much do whatever it takes to keep operating. Many have been the times I've been on the ground with the ground crew chipping ice from between points with a switch broom and helping as best I can. Their job was tough enough, I figured they could use a hand.
Note: The above pics were taken before electronic devices were verboten. After the rules went into place prohibiting such, all such photos by me ceased being taken.
As for air lines, I've never had to do it, but I've been told by old head railroaders that they would cut the air out between the lead unit and the rest of the consist/train, and pour in some isopropyl alcohol, Then re-snap the line back together and cut-in the air.
Lastly, I also remember that during freezing rains and or freezing precipitation, I would make a light set of the brakes every few miles to free up the brake rigging's/etc and make sure I still had brakes. Learned that from an experience a friend of mine had descending a long grade with a coal train. Went to make his normal set... and nothing. Pulled off some more air... still nothing. In desperation, pulled off a maximum set... and that did the trick and the brakes freed up and he had brakes again. Had that failed, his next move would have been dump the air and hope for the best. I learned from his incident to be mindful of one's brakes during such weather.
Railroading is a world unto itself and used to be one of the best jobs you could have.
Andre
@Matt_GNo27 posted:The MBTA will keep small fires burning on the switches. I've always wondered what specific parts they're keeping warm
The movable portions, such as the points.
and what they are burning.
Propane, or natural gas if available.
I used to take the UP Metra West Line into Chicago (first train in the AM) so it was always dark out. When going through the Western Ave switch yard in cold weather there was a sea of fires across all the tracks. I had always assumed they were burning diesel as they had plenty of it and did not have to deal with hoses and the tracks.
First time I saw this it was alarming until I found out it was intentional.
For our steam locomotive, we had steam coils in the oil fuel tank. I'd open that valve to get steam to heat the oil and keep it flowing. Our water supply was in a saddle tank, and heat from the boiler would keep it from freezing.
The biggest issue here is the continuous welded rail will contract in the cold and can actually snap. This has caused a few derailments. It can easily hit 20 below here. MoW crew comes out and inserts a short section of rail to compensate every here and there. Also, during blizzards all the highways are either closed or so badly drifted nothing gets through. The trains don't run until roads and rails are cleared.
Kent in SD
I am surprised by some of this. I drove a semi from 1985 to 2000, the engines had antifreeze in them with block heaters. You would plug the heater in when the truck was not running, it made the engine easy to restart and the cab heated up pretty quick. I had two 120 gallon fuel tanks, I added winter fuel additive when refueling to keep the fuel from gelling and dumped airline antifreeze in the air hoses before connecting them, this kept the air brakes from freezing up.
I realize a mile long train is a different animal but you'd think there would be way to apply what we do with semis to trains.
@Guitarmike posted:I am surprised by some of this. I drove a semi from 1985 to 2000, the engines had antifreeze in them with block heaters. You would plug the heater in when the truck was not running, it made the engine easy to restart and the cab heated up pretty quick. I had two 120 gallon fuel tanks, I added winter fuel additive when refueling to keep the fuel from gelling and dumped airline antifreeze in the air hoses before connecting them, this kept the air brakes from freezing up.
I realize a mile long train is a different animal but you'd think there would be way to apply what we do with semis to trains.
As information, the use of anti-freeze in Diesel engines, forces a reduction in horsepower, since anti-freeze does NOT cool as well as plain water (look it up). Thus, railroad diesel electric locomotives do NOT use anti-freeze, in order to produce maximum rated HP, under all weather conditions.
Another interesting piece of information concerning anti-freeze, if there is any sort of internal water leak, the use of anti-freeze will generally ALWAYS cause a failure of a crankshaft bearing or a connecting rod bearing, because the anti-freeze provides absolutely NO lubrication. With plain water, the modern era lubricating oils tend to break down the water and steam it out of the very hot oil (over 255 degrees), thus preventing any bearing failures.
As to continuous idling, nearly all locomotives built in the last 25 years are equipped with an Auto-Start feature, which allows the diesel engine to automatically shut down when conditions permit, and then to automatically start again when conditions change.
I won't list all the conditions here, because this thread is about winter precautions, but these are definitely applicable to winter:
In spite of the equipment I just described (which normally works well) if winter conditions get down to arctic levels, or blizzards prevent proper air circulation in radiators and/or centralized air intake openings, locomotives can still suffer damage when they are idle for long periods.
Good question hokie71, very informative replies. I did not know about the engine antifreeze issue. It would seem that those loks destined for cold weather locations would have fuel tank heaters. But that’s an added expense and how often do you need it.
Steve
From the automotive industry.
Diesel trucks (pick ups) do not make much heat at no load idle. they have to be loaded (driven) to produce heat. Does this apply to locos?
@gftiv posted:From the automotive industry.
Diesel trucks (pick ups) do not make much heat at no load idle. they have to be loaded (driven) to produce heat. Does this apply to locos?
No. Remember, diesel electric locomotives are NOT direct mechanical drive. Railroad diesel units have a sophisticated water cooling system designed to maintain proper cooling water temperature regardless of load on the prime mover. Plus, being an "electric transmission" system, there are a number of other auxiliary systems providing a load on the prime mover, such as the air compressor, auxiliary generator, etc..
Water as Hot Water points out has a higher capacity to transfer heat away from an engine compared to anti freeze+water (pure antifreeze has even less). By using pure water it allows them to run the prime mover at higher power without it over heating,the radiators can dissipate the heat at a faster rate. The downside is that with plain water if there is a problem with the cooling system , like loss of pressure in it, plain water will boil sooner than a water/antifreeze mix or if an engine is under load in really hot conditions, it may reach the boiling point of water even under pressure in theory (and I am sure there are procedures for that, I assume if the engine temp starts climbing they would stop the train or do something along those lines; I am a lot more familiar with cars.)
High performance engines, like in racing and the like, use pure water for the same reason, they can dissipate heat faster and thus run harder.
In theory they could use anti freeze in the winter because the heat transfer capability is not as critical (put it this way, unless a thermostat sticks, you rarely see cars overheating in the winter), the cold air would make up for the lack of antifreeze/water mix heat transfer being lower than plain water. I suspect they don't because engines on especially long haul trains operate in a far wider range of conditions than let's say a typical car would, so they could be in freezing temps and then travel into heat (like coming out of the mountains in AZ into the desert where it is hot). HW?
One comment on anti freeze , it actually is a lubricant, it is one of the reasons they tell you to use anti freeze in a car radiator (that and it also is anti corrosion). Standard auto anti freeze lubricates the water pump, which these days thanks to cam belts driving the water pump, would be a 2000+ dollar bill if the water pump seizes. HW is correct, though, if antifreeze water through a crack in the water jacket or a blown gasket gets into the lubricating oil on a prime mover, whatever lubricating capability it has is nowhere near what the engine oil has. Interesting about the pure water boiling off in the hot oil (on a car, that wouldn't happen, engine oil is going to be at the temp of the engine, which is usually 170-180). The other thing with antifreeze I have seen in a car that overheated and water got into the sump, is the anti freeze kind of forms this gronky crap with the oil that congeals, clogs oil ports, and starves the crank bearings of lubrication.
One other way they deal with winter storms is they will keep trains running around the clock to try and keep the tracks clear on commuter railroads (I can't speak for all of them, obviously). Both Metro North and NJ transit do this in winter storms (I don't know about LIRR, or what NYC transit does). The of course suspect service, these are just trains running out and back to keep the track clear.
Had a friend who worked in the storehouse and one winter the big bosses decided to save money an shut off all the idling engines in extremely cold temperatures. when they tried to start them the older batteries did not have enough power to turn them over. The big boss told maintenance to replace the batteries with new ones. The only problem was the big boss had told the storehouse they did not need to stock spare batteries!
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