What system to buy for Command Control?

And P.S.- Will I still be able to run my postwar stuff with one of these systems?

The MTH DCS System will run conventional, MTH ProtoSound, MTH PS2, MTH PS3, Lionel TMCC and Lionel Legacy. In short, MTH DCS runs all of the digital control systems. DCS requires some Lionel control equipment add-ons to run TMCC and Legacy.

 

I am not sure if Lionel's Legacy System will run MTH PS2 & PS3 locomotives.

 

Talk to the guys in the clubs with a layout. Their layouts need to run all types of locomotives, so they should be able to give you sound advice.

 

 

 

 

Mth has DCS. Lionel has Legacy (tmcc). DCS only controls MTH. Legacy only controls Lionel. MTH does have a feature that allows you to connect both systems so you can use one remote.  But you still need to buy both systems.  The simple answer is to buy the remote system for the engines you have. If you buy engines from both manufacturers then get both systems.  If you only buy from one, then just get the one.

Lionel no longer makes the original TMCC system.  They only make legacy.  Legacy is fully backward compatible with the old system. Legacy controls both TMCC and legacy engines. If you want the Lionel system then get Legacy. 

If you buy both systems and connect them together,  you can use just the MTH remote.  But MTH does not take advantage of the new legacy features. To  use the legacy features you still need to use the legacy remote.

You can incorporate conventional Control by using the remote to control the transformer.  Lionel has the zwl with is a remote Control transformer.  They also have tpcs which are another remote control transformer.

The first step would be to get the remote system for the engine you have.  That way you can take advantage of all the features.

If Lionel posted the codes for Legacy, couldn't MTH take advantage of that, in a future release?

 

(and I believe Lionel knows that and they decided the advantages outweigh the disadvantages).

My opinion is the "best" command system remains DCS. As stated above, DCS will control everything made, except for a select few "Legacy" features. In addition, upgrades are available via your computer and are digitally based. I don't think that is the case with Lionel. I run all manufacturers produuct with my DCS handheld. 99% of te features I use are covered. I recommend the DVD explaning DCS by Rich Melvin, as well as Barry's DCS Companion book. Also, pay attemntion to Barry's postings on the forum. Good luck with your decision,

Dave G.

 ps. MTH's system is less expensive also.

 

 

I run MTH DCS, Lionel TMCC, and conventional locos with the MTH DCS system with a TMCC command base. I only have one Lionel Legacy locomotive so I am not concerned at this time with the Legacy features that would require the Legacy system.

Yes DCS will run it, but only after you buy Lionel's TMCC/Legacy components, so you end up buying two systems

The best advice look at what you got and go with the system that is native to those engines. If you have both, buy both. If  you are primarily MTH, Go DCS. If your engines are TMCC/Legacy then go with that system

And yes dgauss upgrades for Lionel over the internet and are far simpler than using MTH's system No clamps needed and no long lines at the the York LUG meeting with people not wanting to risk upgrading their own units

And like Marty says, right now it looks like MTH is going to rely on Dave Heikel to support Legacy commands via the DCS app

 

Most of these guys gave you good advice. If you want command for MTH and ALL others you will need to buy both systems. Lionel's command systems will run every brand of command engine except  MTH who chose to make their own system.

Both Legacy and DCS are costly.  I expect most of the command folks to disagree but several hundred dollars plus the cost of each loco almost makes the hobby cost too much.  You can pick up TMCC components from this forum or ebay inexpensively.  TMCC runs lionel, Atlas and others, while DCS is limited to MTH.  You can add TMCC boards to existing equipment inexpensively and easily.  TMCC hooks up to an existing layout with one wire.  I have no experience with DCS but  happened to overhear a conversation at the last NJ highrailers event where someone built a layout for DCS, it refused to work until someone came in to trouble shoot.  $1,000 later it worked.  Star wiring, or whatever is required is enough to make ones head explode.  Simple is the order of the day in my basement.

If you run all MTH and like their stuff (who wouldn't) DCS is the clear choice.  If you have a mixture of equipment other than MTH, TMCC or legacy is the way to go.  If you have unlimited $$$$ install both systems.

I have both DCS and TMCC.

I use each for the trains that match.

Originally I bought a TMCC Base and connected it to the DCS for running the TMCC crane car and tender along with a couple engines.

But now I have the full TMCC system, Reason: I have a hard time remembering the controls for the TMCC Crane set on the DCS system.

One note, I usually use the DCS remote to run engines, they seem to run better that way than with the CAB-1.

I have not yet bought a Legacy system for a simple reason, I do not have any Legacy equipment yet.

I have both DCS and Legacy, with slightly more Legacy/TMCC engines than DCS engines (counting conversions).  On my old layout I could run 4 trains at once, and I found I preferred to run each system with its own dedicated handheld.  Plus the TMCC engines run much better using the Legacy system.

 

I do not use the soft keys of the DCS system except for the whistle/horn signals (forward, reverse and crossing if available).  I really like the quilling whistle/horn on Legacy engines; much more play value.  Plus, RailSounds 4.0 and up sound better than even the new PS3 sounds.

 

I do like the coupler operation of MTH engines better than Lionel's.

 

Ron

You will eventually WANT both Legacy and DCS. Why be stuck with limitations of any kind? Wiring both systems to your layout is very easy, and both can be run at the same time. Do it when you wire the layout and never look back.  

The original CAB1 TMCC system and the powermasters was the way to go so you could operate TMCC and conventional engines. That system is obsolete and no longer supported by Lionel.

 

The Legacy and CAB1L systems replaced the CAB1 and either will allow you to operate both command and conventional Lionel engines with some additional components. Lionel Legacy Powermasters will allow you to control the conventional engines and MTH engines in conventional mode.

 

Lionel TPC's, track power controllers, will also do the same thing but they are also being obsoleted and being replace with new upgraded versions at some point.

 

Least expensive way to go would be Lionel CAB1L and a Legacy Powermaster. This would allow you to operate Legacy and TMCC equipped engines and Lionel and MTH engines in conventional mode. Cost about $275.00.

 

 

To go the same route with the full blown Legacy system, when available some time in the future, would add about another $100 to the cost.

 

You can access many of the MTH PS2/3 features in conventional mode but there are some limitations.

 

I own both Legacy and DCS, and would recommend purchasing both (if funds allow) to maximize the operational aspects of both systems.

 

However, I would like to offer some comments regarding a few of the posts above:

You can incorporate conventional Control by using the remote to control the transformer.  Lionel has the zwl with is a remote Control transformer.  They also have tpcs which are another remote control transformer.

Using DCS's variable channels, conventional control is included without the requirement for any additional purchases at all.

If Lionel posted the codes for Legacy, couldn't MTH take advantage of that, in a future release?

Yes, absolutely, using current DCS hardware.

Yes DCS will run it, but only after you buy Lionel's TMCC/Legacy components, so you end up buying two systems

Actually, all you need is a TMCC, Legacy or Base 1L command base. The Lionel Legacy Cab-2 is only required if you desire to operate Legacy-only features. The difficulty is that, at present, I don't believe that any command base is available for separate sale, unless one purchases a used TMCC Command Base.

upgrades for Lionel over the internet and are far simpler than using MTH's system

Not really "simpler". The DCS upgrade is a one-step process.  After downloading the free software from MTH's web site, each DCS component is upgraded directly.

 

Upgrading Legacy requires two steps. First, updating a pair of (extra cost) hardware modules with the software. Second, then plugging the appropriate module into each Legacy component and doing the actual upgrade.

right now it looks like MTH is going to rely on Dave Heikel to support Legacy commands via the DCS app

It only "looks like" that if one chooses to see things that way.

 

Regardless, that is not necessarily the case and, AFAIK, there have been no credible statements in that regard. 

 

 

I've picked the TMCC/Legacy route because it turns out all my command equipped locomotives were TMCC. And like stated above, it only requires one wire to the layout, while DCS is more complicated.  One of my friends has nearly pulled all his hair out and thrown his MTH stuff away because of the issues he experienced setting up DCS.  That is not to say Lionel's system is free of issues.  It took me a couple of months to get TMCC to work right.  Turns out since I bought my base used it had issues, but I was able to correct it and then was good to go.  So for now my plan is to pick up more TMCC/Legacy locomotives, and if I find that there are several MTH locomotives I want then I'll get DCS, otherwise if it's just one or two then I'll convert them to TMCC with ERR's boards.

 

So the short of it is, get what you like for rolling stock and then get the command system that'll run it.

I think Marty summed this up really well. If most of you command control equipment represents either Lionel or MTH, this should dictate the direction you take. If you regularly run Lionel & MTH engines, why not install both systems to maximize each engines capabilities.

 

I did not want to bother with two systems, and since the bulk of my equipment is Lionel, I chose Legacy and had all of my MTH engines converted to TMCC. You have to consider this as strictly a personal decision, not what is necessarily best, as both systems are very good.

Marty,

You will still need the Legacy Base, not the CAB1L Base,

Thanks for the correction!

 

I've updated my post above.

I recommend having both systems available unless you are a single-brand kind of person.  Either or both systems are basically a one-time expense that will cost you less than a lower/mid-range locomotive and will likely provide good service for many years.

As Allan and others already have said, If you have (or ever plan to have) engines from both Lionel and MTH, then do yourself a favor and get both a Legacy and DCS system. You will probably end up doing that at some point anyway, so might as well get it over with up front. Each system works best with their manufacturer's own equipment.

 

One point further, personally I would purchase them both new from authorized dealers to take advantage of the warranty and manufacturer support for 1 year or how ever long the warranty lasts. I have heard others here report that Lionel has repaired some Legacy systems that were more than a year old under their warranty.

 

As Allan also points out, each system is less than a new engine from either company.  Purchasing both systems (Legacy and DCS) is comparable to the purchase of just one of some the deluxe wireless DCC systems. (At least they were a few years ago when I researched all this stuff.)

 

 

ABSOLUTELY! 

 

Even if you purchase other train items elsewhere (eBay, etc.) I would most certainly recommend buying your command control system and components from a brick-and-mortar authorized dealer.

Ask a simple question...

 

Seriously, my recommendation would be to use the Lionel system of TMCC/Legacy,

at first. I have TMCC and DCS (just a Remote Commander) on my layout, but the

MTH locos tend to stay on the shelf. Can be fussy; can be fine.

 

The Lionel system (TMCC/Legacy) is friendlier and oh, so able to be installed in anything.

I put an ERR DC Commander board in my Lionel 0-4-0 - $60.00, and I had Command.

For upgrades, call Bill at Modern Toy Train Parts - when you're ready.

 

But, for now:

Get a used TMCC CAB-1/Command Base/Powermaster (or a new Legacy CAB-1L/Base/Powermaster set).

Get one Lionel-licensed CC loco (Lionel, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail) and get familiar and comfortable with it and the system. Learn about using it. Take it from there; worry about all the other

stuff later. Much will fall into place for you as you go, anyway. Small steps, modest

expenditure. 

our club has both systems we have a toggle switch to switch between the two.

 

by the way I used to live in your city in the 60's as a child.  ever get to san diego stop by the club.

our club has both systems we have a toggle switch to switch between the two.

Why in the world do you need "to switch between the two"??

 

But both if you can afford it.

your kidding right?

 

why not. 

 

we have the z4000 that people can run conventional with the mth remote.

 

we have bricks that people can run command using lionel or mth remote.

 

all through some feel you need the z4000 to run any mth.

 

it just works for us. 

 

we even have 4 tiu's, even through mike wolfe said one would run all 4 lines.

 

maybe I didn't explain it right the toggle switch is to switch between the brick and the z4000.

your kidding right?

Absolutely not!

we even have 4 tiu's, even through mike wolfe said one would run all 4 lines.

Why? Do you have more than 4 loops requiring more than 4 TIU channels?

maybe I didn't explain it right the toggle switch is to switch between the brick and the z4000. 

DCS, TMCC, Legacy, and conventional operation can all coexist with each other, even on the same tracks, if necessary. You a n simultaneously connect the TIU, Lionel command bases (both TMCC and Legacy), the Z4000's handles, etc. You can use bricks, as well, as long as you only have one power source per TIU channel.

 

Where's the need to switch any power supplies? Everything is completely inter-operational with everything else.

 

Regardless, it's your railroad and you should run it however you please.

 

 

this is one of those open a can of worms questions. everyone has there own opinion on what is the best system. I have a layout with many loops most are connected together one is not. I use to run tmcc on all loops but the one not connected it had a cw80 to run conventional. I also picked up a proto3 engine a few months ago so I had in the mix a dcs commander remote. so a transformer and tmcc remot and dcs small remote to run trains on my layout well I decided one night I was tired of all that and bought dcs and a aiu. first day I had everything up and running on one remote. tmcc proto3 and conventional. I'm happy with it. now I don't have any legacy engines just tmcc and also have conventional converted to tmcc so buying legacy wasn't an issue. just used my tmcc base with the little cable and called it a day I even used my single 135 watt powerhouse to power both command and conventional. works fine for now until I buy a ph180. then I started programing in the fastrack switches all controlled by the remote. I also got a great deal on it all too which is why I did it $168  for the remote and tiu $99 for the aiu then something like $20. for both cables one for tmcc and the other to hook up the powerhouse.

I agree with one caveat, that being which system you want to drive any switches or accessories from? Both systems use their own systems to drive accessories that you might want to control from a remote. I would suggest at looking which command locomotives that you have the most of and start with that system. Later you can expand to the other system. I had Lionel command units first and so I went with TMCC/Legacy and used their accessory controllers like the SC-2 to control my turnouts. Since I wired my turnouts on independent power from the track I can switch my turnouts while running conventional trains and this does add to the excitement.

 

Cost wise I think that the Lionel accessory controllers might cost a little more than the MTH DCS units but I did not know that when I built my layout. My layout was all Fastrack until a couple of months ago when I built a tinplate elevated rail loop with tubular track and Erector set parts. I was not real familiar with MTH DCS until later on and since I had learned the TMCC/Legacy system DCS was an easy addition and easy to learn.

 

Again, what command locomotives do you have the most of and then are you considering operating accessories from the remote? If you have not think about it since either one does a good job and this adds another element of fun to your operating session. Good luck.