What to watch for with the antiques

The original pre war used metal gears and may have a smell of smoke or burnt wire to them. Remember this; electronics were not around in the 1930's & 40's. Also a lot of pre war might have some damage when a reproduction model will look brand new. The newest electrical thing in the 1920's & 30's was a solenoid or electromagnet.

If you see a circuit board in a piece that is supposed to be pre war it is a current reproduction!

Lee Fritz

I'd say that if you find a 71+ year old train that looks new, I'd suspect a resto or a reproduction.. These things were made as toys,and most were treated as such. Scratches,dings,etc. Not to say you can't find old trains in nice condition. you're doing the right things, ask questions,take your time and do your homework. And welcome to the world of Prewar!

Don't buy prewar trains for an investment. Don't buy any trains for investment. Buy them for fun and enjoyment.

The smartest thing you can do is search out books on Prewar trains, and educate yourself first and foremost.  Try your local library to see if they have such books.  A lot of publications for Prewar, Tinplate and the like, are no longer in print, and some are very expensive to purchase now.  Without any of these books, catalogs, etc. you are at the mercy of the seller.  You need to have a realistic baseline of current values, of specific items.  You used a broad brush with "Prewar", which doesn't account for which manufacturer you are interested in.  Your choices can be narrow or broad by what appeals to you.  You have the most prevalent with Lionel, the you go to Bing, Dorfan, Hafner, American Flyer, and on and on with lesser known brands.

Education, education education is the key.  Know your brand of choice, and know the values, before any purchase.  If it is nice and shiny, it is either a repaint, or reproduction.  Prewar trains are 73 to 115 years old, for the most part, and to find anything that old in very good to excellent condition is Slim to None.

Well I'm definitely not looking to buy anything as an investment.  Just personal appeal and enjoyment.  At the same time I don't want to get swindled either.  I guess my plan to purchase several books beforehand and watch the auctions is a good start.  While I like Lionel/American Flyer, I lean more towards the Ives trains and perhaps Dorfan.  I really like Voltamp/Boucher/Carlise & Finch stuff too but from what I've seen, most of that is probably pricier than I can afford or want to spend.  Same goes for a lot of Lionel though.  

I have found most dealers to be fairly honest when you deal with them directly.  Beware of eBay.  People sell all kinds of reproductions, repainted, and pieced together items.  This isn't necessarily bad, depending on what you are looking for.  I personally do not care for any repainted toys.  I feel they never look right.  I would much rather have a dented rusty original over a botched paint job.  Pick up a copy of the: Collectors Guide to Prewar Lionel Trains 1900-1942. You can get a new copy on Amazon for $6.94.  If you study up on some of these guides and become familiar with the history, you'll know what to look for.  With a little practice, you'll easily be able to spot reproductions, etc.  And like Roy said above, have fun with it.  Don't buy as an investment. Once you get into collecting tinplate, it will end up costing you money; like any other addiction.

the library is a great place to get the books. our local has access to most of the Greenberg books. plus you've got access to a world of knowledge here.

The best way to collect them is to see, smell, feel them at a local retailer, antique auction, flea market, antique store or train show. You may not be familiar with a particular item number, axle configuration or coupler style, but your eyes will know what looks doctored and what doesn't. Check the tin tabs that hold the body of the car to the frame. Often collectors or sellers will marry a good body to a good frame to resell. And always ask questions, a knowledgeable seller is a great resource and help ease your mind about whether the item is the real deal or not.  It is much better to determine the items value to yourself when it is in hand, over a couple of grainy photos on eBay which never seem to show the view that should be the most important one .

The only warning I'll give you as not wanting to scare you off but have been burnt twice by this. The 1688 there is 2 version and there is only one version you can get the brush plate on the motor for the other brush plate is not made or will not fit either and only way to know is to have in hand so unless they say it runs and cycles etc I stay away from. other than that what has been said above is about the best advice you can get.  I'm now back into collecting prewar and post war as ( nothing against it but just don't like something more or less being forced on me) don't care for the new stuff I can afford.( lionchief & lionchief+) ( Vision line out of my price line and a lot of legacy is also) 

I always like the older stuff anyway so I'm good.

Old trains are a crap shoot as far as what you can expect for operating reliability. They may have a zillion scale miles on them and been worked on many times, and not always repaired correctly. It helps to be a mechanic, if you want to own and operate genuinely old trains.

Even if you have the opportunity to test run an old loco first, a brief run may not show up worn-out bearings. Worn bearings can be oiled up and they run OK for a while, before they start squealing again.

There have been a lot of nice-looking reproduction trains in recent years and they might be a better bet for you, if you don't want to spend time troubleshooting and working on old trains.

I realize there are honest reproductions but is there much in the way of fakes being sold as originals?

Yes, there are people out there who try to pass off reproductions as originals. And there are people who try to pass off repaints as originals. Then there are the people who like to claim that any odd ball piece that someone put together is a factory sample or a Madison Hardware creation.

I found this web site to be a good source:

http://www.postwarlionel.com/

I've only seen old repros pass off successfully.

Often, where originality is concerned, a factory flaw is mistaken for a poorly done restoration.  You can sometimes tell the angle at which an item was hung in the spray booth by the direction of the paint runs.  Solder blobs can range in size from overkill to nonexistent.  Sheet metal stampings are never as good as today's reproductions.  A total lack of flaws would be my first clue that something is phony.  Being familiar with all the color variations will also help weed out fakes.  The biggest hindrance to playing Sherlock is that some of the early restorations are now taking on an antique patina all their own.

Bruce

I will weigh in because I saw you liked my videos and that may have sparked your interest.  I became interested in prewar standard gauge because I needed to run some trains.  I had to move, and tear down an awesome O gauge layout and put it all in boxes and up in flames.  I have my Dad's #10 set so I set it up, a basic figure eight.  I got into it, if you know what I mean, so I cleaned it up and running great.  Shortly thereafter, a forum member posted for sale some nice pieces.  A bought another #10, four or five of his 500 freights and then later a restored 390E.  I didn't know anything about standard gauge, but I knew they looked in great shape and were over 80 years old.  Instant cool to me.  That is probably the stage you are in now.  I got lucky and got some nice pieces to start me off.  After that I learned more, figured out there were 9 - 500 freight cars made, so naturally I had to have one really nice piece of each car.  I was really lucky, I bought 4-5 cars on eBay and all are just beautiful.  You can get a pretty good idea what shape it is in from the photos.  And you can tell what is original paint, the sellers will usually tell you.

Tht said, I did just have a letdown of sorts.  I snagged a really beautiful dark gun metal gray 392e last week with the big tender.  It is dead in the water.  Buzzes, but won't move.  I like to run my ninety year old trains.  At the price I bought it, it was a good deal.  It will probably be another $200 to get her running, that makes it not such a great deal, but that being said, the paint looks all original and it is going to be a brute when it's all said and done.  I'm glad to have it, it wasn't intended to be a wise investment.  One thing I refuse to do is get stressed out about toy trains. I can't wait to see it running...

You can learn a lot in a short time.  Information is available.  I found some nice original passenger sets too.  I have only the smalls, but that's all I need.  If you have a good eye, you can find what you want.  I'm done buying anything for a while.  The only thing I desire is a nice original 400e but I can wait.

Have fun and best of luck.  Don't mean to be morbid or whatever, but a lot of the original owners of these beautiful original trains are going to be cashing in their chips so to speak, and there will always be nice stuff to be had in the near future.  I'm good for now.

Ace posted:

Old trains are a crap shoot as far as what you can expect for operating reliability. They may have a zillion scale miles on them and been worked on many times, and not always repaired correctly. It helps to be a mechanic, if you want to own and operate genuinely old trains.

Even if you have the opportunity to test run an old loco first, a brief run may not show up worn-out bearings. Worn bearings can be oiled up and they run OK for a while, before they start squealing again.

There have been a lot of nice-looking reproduction trains in recent years and they might be a better bet for you, if you don't want to spend time troubleshooting and working on old trains.

Actually, it is the nice-looking reproductions that got me looking at trains again.  I was an HO train kid from the 80's.  My father has the O and S gauge stuff.  My name is on his boxed Frontiersman set.  Well I pulled out the HO stuff for the first time in years with the thought of putting  them around the tree for my 2 year old daughter to enjoy and to rekindle the tradition.  But alas, the HO stuff is just too small for around the tree.  So I was in the local train shop and spotted one of the MTH/Lionel reproduction sets.  Did a little quick research and while I wanted to support the local shop, I was really much more keen on a passenger set than a freight set.  Got a good deal on a Lionel 6-51010 set.  Absolutely stunning.  I really like the Standard gauge stuff too (bit pricey though).  I also love history and antiques so it was a short jump to starting to look at the originals.  Spent the last week just researching and scouring the net.  Bad idea.  That is so much super cool stuff out there and it really seems to span a wide range of price so it seems like pretty much anyone could get into collecting these things depending on what they are willing to go after.  Of course then another local shop owner actually filled the window with a couple of nice prewar sets...a Lionel and an Ives.  Again, super cool.  Feel like the hook is getting set but trying to be reasonable about it all.  Will do a lot  more reading and get my hands on some books to try to better educate myself.  I haven't really narrowed the interest down to anything except I am leaning towards Ives and maybe Dorfan.  Of course I like the Lionel and AF stuff too.  Definitely seem to only be interested in the old prewar stuff.  They have a certain 'look' that I find really appealing vs the  postwar stuff.  

keqwow posted:

Well I'm definitely not looking to buy anything as an investment.  Just personal appeal and enjoyment.  At the same time I don't want to get swindled either.  I guess my plan to purchase several books beforehand and watch the auctions is a good start.  While I like Lionel/American Flyer, I lean more towards the Ives trains and perhaps Dorfan.  I really like Voltamp/Boucher/Carlise & Finch stuff too but from what I've seen, most of that is probably pricier than I can afford or want to spend.  Same goes for a lot of Lionel though.  

if you lean more toward operation than merely display, Dorfan will be a tough route to take.  the majority of locomotives up for sale will either be basket cases or will require a tremendous amount of reconstruction and replacement parts (usually at least wheels) to have a chance of running again.  rolling stock is also not that plentiful.  i have nine narrow gauge Dorfan freight cars* (Dorfan refers to O gauge as "Narrow" and Lionel Standatd gauge as "Wide") and aside from some variation in the trucks and other detail parts, that's all that were ever available.

one thing to not only watch with Dorfan, but with many prewar tinplate pieces, ...repainted roofs.  Dorfan boxcar roofs were apparently very susceptible to paint flaking and i see many up for sale that were obvious repaints.  with lithographed tinplate, fortunately this is often easy to spot.  make sure the patina, playwear, etc is even all around.  lithographed car sides are nearly impossible to restore, but frames and roofs are often a solid color and are easy to separate and repaint.  a car with scratches and rubs on the side along with a perfect condition roof is a dead giveaway.

i've seen quite a bit of Ives recently for sale out of collections.  if you stick to some of the more common pieces, not only are auction prices on these quite attractive currently, but the chances are a lot less that you'll run into any fakes.

you're on the right track, though...
modern reproductions have absolutely no charm to them.
and you've got the right idea about education, ...read, read, read.

cheers...gary

* [edit... thought i'd mention that i use a Lionel 262E steam locomotive to pull the Dorfan freight,  size-wise it's a great fit.]

This is for Rtraincollector...Can you fill me in on the brush plate problem on the 1688 loco's.  From what you posted, you mention 2 motors, and one that you can't get a brush plate for.  I'm curious which motor??

KEQWOW,

 I see you joined the Forum recently, so welcome.

 There is a lot of good advice here. In summary, if it looks to good, it probably should make you suspicious. Any locomotive from the 1930-1940's should have its share of dents & dings. Educate yourself by reading up. Go to local train shows, that's where you can really see the differences in what a truly "aged" locomotive is. Most vendors at train shows that I ever dealt with were always honest. If you buy a locomotive at a train show, don't be afraid to ask the person for their business card or if you can go test it...many train shows will have some type of area set aside where you can test locomotives before purchasing.

If you are lucky to have a local hobby shop near you try there, but I would expect most (from what I see) probably won't have an extensive prewar section if they want to stay in business.

Now the good news...most of my locomotives are around 75 years old. They were made in the USA when quality was important. The "technology" of the 1930's to early 1940's can easily last another 75 or more years with a little basic maintenance.

Good luck and post pictures as you pick things up.

Tom

In my opinion the best sources of information are realized prices at auctions like Stout, Bertoia, Ralston, Ambrose and Bauer plus Ebay completed transactions and even our O Gauge Forum.  The price books are usually way behind reality.  Prices have dropped significantly during the past 10 years for virtually everything but the very rarest or super condition.  If someone tries to sell you something for prices shown " in the book" beware.

Yeah.  I have never even looked at price guides.  I've been into antiques long enough to know that prices change daily and depending on the cycle of the moon.  The only books I'm interested in are books that show what was made and when.  Good color photos and information about variations.  I consider price guides to be a waste of time and money.  

I haven't paid more than $100 for any of my Lionel locos (and $150 for my 1681 but it was definitely worth it ). You can find some great deals at train shows on tinplate stuff. Not too long ago I visited the Orange Empire swap meet and I purchased 2 127 stations and a (forgot the number) coal loader for $20. I bet you can find a decent 259 for less than $60 on ebay. I know you said you wanted Ives (a lot of Ives is crossover stuff from Lionel (and I think AF as well?) or Dorfan but I don't know much about them... I like Lionel the best because they do an outstanding job of giving their trains depth without making them look cluttered or gaudy (that's just me though).

I'm sure if you browse ebay you'll find some great deals, although I think my best deals are from shows & swap meets.

keqwow posted:

....  I consider price guides to be a waste of time and money.  

i wouldn't call price guides completely useless.
in most cases they will give you a good idea of the 'relative' value of a piece.

and don't pass on  antique shops. prices will vary from ridiculous, to really good.

While I wouldn't use price guides for pricing, the large format price guides have quite a bit of information about the trains. Unfortunately, one must take the information with a grain of salt, there are errors and omissions.

Looking back at your original post, and following your other responses, you were originally into HO, but now have decided to get into "0", and preferably Tinplate Prewar.  You mention that you are leaning toward Ives, Lionel-Ives, and Dorfan.  You should do some internet searching (Google) on these three, and get a sense of their history.  Ives originated in 1868, and in 1924 Lionel & American Flyer bought them out.  Ives started in Connecticut, and after Lionel acquired them, they closed down that plant and moved everything to Irvington, N.J..  Lionel also bought out AF side of the Ives buy out.  They did a lot of transition pieces from 1929 thru 1933, that will be marked Ives/ Lionel-Ives/ Lionel. 

As I stated in my original response, you need to educate yourself by reading books for that time period, and possibly buying some of the least expensive books, as the majority are long out of print, and sellers are asking a fortune for them.  Do internet searches on specific Manufacturers of your interest.  Check Auctions like Ambrose-Bauer/Stout/ and yes eBay.  Look at what originals look like, and see what they Sold for, to get an idea of present day value. 

I hate to say this, but YOU JUST GOT HOOKED!!!!  And it is a Hard Addiction to kick, but enjoy the ride.

but it's a good addiction, and will bring lots of good clean fun.

Are there any train clubs in your area?  Most members are willing to share information and advice about what is good and not so good.  They might even meet you at a train show and help advise you on your purchase.   At one of their club runs they might even have some examples to show you of prewar trains and what to look for.  A physical example and some conversations can be a very good and quick education.  Patience and caution are invaluable in your new quest.  I would definitely want to see all aspects of the train working and demonstrated before buying it.  I would rather not have to find a seller later to try to exercise a warranty or try to get my money back.

You know the first rule already... Buy what you like.

As you seem more interested in running trains versus collecting, then I'd suggest not worrying too much over whether a piece is all original... 99% of every prewar toy train you find will have been "messed with". And yes, I have seen obvious repros and repaints in "expert collectors" collections, so everybody gets fooled at some point. Don't worry about it. Buy what you like and can afford.

One of the first things I learned when I go into prewar STDG is most of the really neat looking trains are rare and very expensive. $2-5000 for one locomotive is serious sticker shock. That is where repros and repaints come in for more affordable trains to run.

And the other thing I learned is there are two distinct camps in prewar collecting...

The most "powerful" camp being the "leave it alone it is a rare piece of history" group. They are the group responsible for the constant increase in auction prices, as they bid against each other to acquire that missing piece for their collection. Very few in this group actually run their trains, or only run a few examples. Instead they have walls covered with shelving and hundred of trains on display. Hey, it's what they enjoy.

The second camp are more operators than collectors. They like the look and style of prewar STDG and want to see it run more than sit on a display shelf. These folks are more inclined to have repros and repaints. This operator group is a distinct minority in prewar train collecting and is actually looked down upon by the "purist" collectors for "ruining" pieces by restoring them. But guys running repros and repaints are having their own fun.

The third thing I learned about prewar train collecting is that a large percentage of people "in the hobby" are in it to make money buying and selling trains. Sure they like toy trains, but they are always looking for a deal to resell at a profit. This is a HUGE if not the biggest buying motivator in the toy train collecting hobby, and so real deals are very very hard to come by.  Every flea market, garage sale, estate sale and auction across the country is attended by some "train guy" who scoops up any deal and puts it on eBay or takes it to York.

Since you seem interested in Ives, see this.

http://www.ivestrains.org/

And be warned, most Ives rolling stock is affordable (depending upon condition), but locomotives are pricey. And repair parts for Ives are more difficult to find than Lionel.

And I disagree with Overlandflyer. There is plenty of charm in repro and repainted prewar STDG trains. A train doesn't have to have faded paint, dents and chips to be charming. The overall style is what makes it. Some repros/repaints have it and some don't.

Have fun!

easy!!! Trust your forum members and their contacts!!

MrNabisco posted:

...

One of the first things I learned when I go into prewar STDG is most of the really neat looking trains are rare and very expensive. $2-5000 for one locomotive is serious sticker shock. That is where repros and repaints come in for more affordable trains to run. ...

there are very few prewar locomotives, even Standard/ Wide gauge, that command even more than $1000 in recent sales.  i mentioned the 262E i use to pull a Dorfan freight.  i paid about $200 for that locomotive and if it weren't for some spider-webbing in the tender paint (i.e. charm) i would definitely put it in the C7 range.

in Standard gauge, i think the Lionel 384 and 385 are "neat" since they look better to me than the monster 400's on small layouts and again rarely more than a few $100 at auction in the C6 range.

MrNabisco posted:

...

And the other thing I learned is there are two distinct camps in prewar collecting...

i would propose a third camp...  there is nothing on my shelves that i will not run sans one or two late prewar Flyer models with wheel issues.  i'm probably a bit more careful with operations than their initial owners might have been, but the only things that collect dust here are the buildings.

MrNabisco posted:

...

And I disagree with Overlandflyer. There is plenty of charm in repro and repainted prewar STDG trains. A train doesn't have to have faded paint, dents and chips to be charming. The overall style is what makes it. Some repros/repaints have it and some don't. ...

i don't believe i said anything regarding restorations.
i admire those who are committed to rescuing basket cases.
modern reproductions are what i feel are without value, both historically and literally.

cheers...gary

overlandflyer posted:

MrNabisco posted:

...

One of the first things I learned when I go into prewar STDG is most of the really neat looking trains are rare and very expensive. $2-5000 for one locomotive is serious sticker shock. That is where repros and repaints come in for more affordable trains to run. ...

there are very few prewar locomotives, even Standard/ Wide gauge, that command even more than $1000 in recent sales.  i mentioned the 262E i use to pull a Dorfan freight.  i paid about $200 for that locomotive and if it weren't for some spider-webbing in the tender paint (i.e. charm) i would definitely put it in the C7 range.

in Standard gauge, i think the Lionel 384 and 385 are "neat" since they look better to me than the monster 400's on small layouts and again rarely more than a few $100 at auction in the C6 range.

MrNabisco posted:

...

And the other thing I learned is there are two distinct camps in prewar collecting...

i would propose a third camp...  there is nothing on my shelves that i will not run sans one or two late prewar Flyer models with wheel issues.  i'm probably a bit more careful with operations than their initial owners might have been, but the only things that collect dust here are the buildings.

MrNabisco posted:

...

And I disagree with Overlandflyer. There is plenty of charm in repro and repainted prewar STDG trains. A train doesn't have to have faded paint, dents and chips to be charming. The overall style is what makes it. Some repros/repaints have it and some don't. ...

i don't believe i said anything regarding restorations.
i admire those who are committed to rescuing basket cases.
modern reproductions are what i feel are without value, both historically and literally.

cheers...gary

Not sure I would say the modern reproductions are without value.  Looking at them and buying a set is what has rekindled my interest in the toy trains.  Now the history loving side of me is interested in the originals.  So I wouldn't say the modern reproductions are completely without value since they seem to have dragged me back into the hobby. Now I'm in trouble.  

A nice 384 or 385E for a $100?  Huh?  Tell me where and how.  That ain't happenin in the world I live in.

Not into the repros, but not against a well done restoration. 

William 1 posted:

A nice 384 or 385E for a $100?  Huh?  Tell me where and how.  That ain't happenin in the world I live in.

Not into the repros, but not against a well done restoration. 

people, please read something twice perhaps before commenting.
...my words were "a few $100".
to me that means at least $200 and maybe less than $500...

 a 384 that sold for $340 a few weeks ago.  C6, runner.

and although there were a few 385's that also sold in the same auction for $300 - $400, i'll be fair and say those might have been good display pieces but all had operational problems.  here is the cheapest 385 that i would personally have bid on (sold for $525), but then it is an all original C7 beauty.

despite my objection to reproductions, i'm actually glad they are being made.
if not i doubt these two locomotives would have been such a deal.

cheers...gary

I call that "Selective Reading", missing some key words, and then shooting from the hip, with a response.  It happens to all of us at some time or another, myself included. 

Keqwow has to decide how he wants to attack his new found affliction.  That means,  what gauge, specific manufacturer, Cast or Tinplate are the most interesting, how old, clockwork or electric.  There are just too many variables to chose from, and it's his decision.  He will have to do some serious researching to get a really good understanding of the multitude of Prewar that are still out there.

Heads up keqwow- One of the best places to start for prewar collecting is either with Marx, as it is inexpensive, not extremely elusive, and is not flooded with reproductions. The other one is O gauge Lionel, as again a fair bit is not elusive, it is the best documented of the group, and a number of pieces have not been reproduced, leaving you a bit freer of that worry.

     On the opposite extreme, there is Dorfan, a small manufacturer from the 1920's, Carslie and Finch, almost impossible to find these days, which was made in Ohio at the turn of the century, and European tinplate, which is almost never seen this side of the pond. Almost all of these are either undocumented or poorly so stateside, are flooded with reproductions, and it ain't easy to find even these.

     Hope this gives you an idea as to where I suggest starting. Good luck!

TeleDoc posted:

This is for Rtraincollector...Can you fill me in on the brush plate problem on the 1688 loco's.  From what you posted, you mention 2 motors, and one that you can't get a brush plate for.  I'm curious which motor??

Teledoc all I know is there is 2 version of brush plates if you call Jeff kane he could tell you more as he can only get one. I have a friend I send stuff to when I run into a problem that has all the presses and dies etc. And that was what happen twice to me. I have 1 good ones now and another coming I hope is good lol. it's been a while since I delt with them about a year. so can't remeber all the details but know between talking with Jeff and friend it was determine I had the one Jeff couldn't get the brush plate for. The other there are repo out there. 

TeleDoc posted:

Keqwow has to decide how he wants to attack his new found affliction.  That means,  what gauge, specific manufacturer, Cast or Tinplate are the most interesting, how old, clockwork or electric.  There are just too many variables to chose from, and it's his decision.  He will have to do some serious researching to get a really good understanding of the multitude of Prewar that are still out there.

May I suggest...

In terms of fakes being sold as originals, the only instance I can think of with this was when McCoy made repros of some rare Lionel standard gauge in the 1960's. They ceased production of them once McCoy found out about it.