What will Cruise Commander Lite run?

Tack,

   I would suggest the Cruise Commander. With any type of load the starting amperage might exceed the 4 amps of the cruise lite. Hope this helps.

Bill 

I'm with Bill on this one.  I have one in a pair of K-Line Interurban units and it hung up on a switch and cooked the board in seconds.  They apparently don't tolerate overloads well.  With the full Cruise Commander OTOH, I've had many installs and I've never cooked the board on any unusual happening with those.

What I'm now doing for all CC-Lite installations is putting a PTC in series with one motor lead to protect against overloads.  I use a 1.30A trip, .65A hold unit and it's never tripped on any of the installs, I have them in five different locomotives now.  I bought a supply of these, and they'll be in all my CC-Lite installations.

Is the lite safe for say a starter set 0-8-0 or a Hogwarts? Is Boxcar Bill going to get more of these in stock?

IMO, that's fine.  My Hogwarts that I posted previously here got the CC-Lite.  Note that I am installing the above named PTC to prevent a repeat of the stall that took out the drivers on the one board.  They did enough damage to the board and traces that I wasn't able to fix the board.

With the PTC, I haven't seen any adverse effects of them being installed, and I also haven't lost any more boards.  The K-Line Interurban set has run for several hours since replacing the board, still kickin'.

Here's what the board looked like, and it only took a stall where it got hooked and stopped a couple of seconds on a switch to do this.

Does anyone have a part number for these from either Digikey or Mouser? "in series with one motor lead" -- assumes this means between the motor and the CC Lite.

Thanks.

jackson

I was talking with Ken from ERR last week about ordering boards for a few of my engines and he recommended for engines in small starter sets such as Lionel 0-8-0 engines that ERR's Cruise Light board be used and ERR' small steam Railsounds Commander if you want sound. 

The small steam is the high pitched whistle that's like European locomotives.  Some folks don't like that, so it's best to listen to the sound clips from the ERR Purchase page and decide on the sound set you'd like for your upgrade.

Jackson, here's the ones I use at Digikey: http://www.digikey.com/product...65/MF-R065-ND/259966

These  are the ones I am using. I put cruise lite in a Williams NW2 being aware of the risks. No worries Bill, if it blows up I am taking full responsibility. After installation I did some tuning on the engine getting the no load current down to .8 amps. Being a switch engines I don't expect to pull long trains with it. I wouldn't consider using it in an F3 with the passenger trains I run with those.

Pete

Anyone have a full cruise commander they would trade for a CC lite and some cash?  ha ha

I need one I can put into an F3!

Jeff,

   I will get more in. Here's is a video from weekend at the movies. I upgrade a two motored starter set engine with the Cruise lite and railsounds for chessie1971.

http://youtu.be/p5Z9q4ufMB4

Bill

I know that several folks use PTC's with their installs.

How do you select what PTC to use?

For something like the CC Lite, with the board rated at 4 amps, I would presume that one would need something that trips at a lower amperage. Would a trip amperage of 3.6 or 3.7 be doable?

I'm not sure I understand what the hold amps are? Is this the minimal amount of current that needs to flow through the PTC for it to operate?

Jim

Bill, Is that your basement?  G

George that video is at my club.  

Did you see the ones I recommended above?  They're .65A hold, 1.3A trip.  In truth, it takes a long time at 1.3 amps for them to trip, but at 4A they'll go right away.  I've got these in five different configurations now, and I've never had a false trip, and I haven't lost any more CC-Lite boards.

I personally believe the ones that Pete selected don't offer enough protection, by the time a 3.7A PTC actually trips, the damage is probably already done.  It only took a few seconds for that picture I posted above, it happened in a flash!

John,

Not an electronic wizard here, is this a fuse or a type of circuit breaker, self- reset able or do you replace it?. Seeing that I have fried a few Mini-2s this is of interest to me. I sure like having folks like you on this forum to bail the rest of us out.

Thanks

Ray 

Here's a page that describes them: Resettable PTCs

They're basically a circuit breaker that resets itself after the overload is gone.  They don't need to be manually reset.

The engine I put those 3.4 amp PTCs was my own and I know they would likely be too slow to open in case of a sudden lock up. I decided that risk was low and would likely only happen if something managed to get stuck in the gears. For someone else I would either use the low amp PTCs or just recommend a full blown Cruise Commander.

Just to elaborate on PTCs (Positive Temperature Coefficient thermistors), the resistance increases with temperature. For many thermistors the change is closer to linear, ie 10 degrees F might increase resistance by 10 ohms. These must be a special version which exhibit little change until the maximum current rating is reached and then suddenly have large increase in resistance.

Pete

Fascinating item, John. Where does it get installed? Does it go on the mini cruise commander board Or somewhere else? Is it a simple solder job?

John,

I'm still trying to grasp how the PTC's work (I do understand that they work on resistance) and how one decides on which ones to use.

Lets take the 1.30A trip, .65A hold unit, for example. 

Does this mean that the current reaching the board it is protecting would be limited to no more than 1.30 amps?

What does the hold amperage mean?  Will current get to the electric device protected by the PTC below the hold, example here being 0.65 amps?

How do you size a PTC for different modeling applications?  With my MRC Dual with the meters, can I just put the engine or car on the track, crank up the transformer to 18 volts and use the amp meter reading to guide my selection?

Thanks,

Jim

Another option guys is just use a fast blow fuse. PTCs are very slow similar to a Post War transformer. Motor stalling can happen but its pretty rare. Its not like you would have to swap out the fuse that often and if you did you have other issues.

The PTCs are an elegant but not perfect solution.

Pete

fyi the Bourns are slightly cheaper at Newark: http://www.newark.com/bourns ($0.217 vs. $0.44 Digikey). Here's the link:

http://www.newark.com/bourns/r...ma-radial/dp/59K0235

It's a .65A unit, with the trip at 1.3A. Good luck.

In either of the motor leads.

There is no simple "rule of thumb" on how to size such a component, and opinions will surely vary when you get down to it.  I picked the 1.3A one on an educated guess.  I believe this one may be too large to provide total protection, but I figure to get some mileage on it and also try lower values and see if they affect operation.  The key thing to consider is what is the average running current for the locomotive in question.  My experience is that if locomotive is drawing several amps, it's usually pulling a significant load.

While it might not happen often, having to open it up to replace a fuse would get really annoying.

What does shipping hit you with at Newark?  One of the bonuses with Digikey is the really cheap shipping on small orders.

Gunrunnerjohn, for a small order, via USPS priority mail, Newark would be about $5 for me. In Illinois. What does Digikey run for shipping?

They charge actual shipping, most first class shipments are about $3.  My last shipment was 6oz total and cost 2.86 shipping.

Yeah I just ordered three of what John recommended and shipping was 2.86.

John

You say you put the PTC in the motor lead.  Why there?  Why not between the pickup and the board?

Also, what about using a littlefuse (?1 1/4 or so long with silver ends).  One could mount a small fuse holder upside down underneath a tender.  This would allow for replacement without removing the shell and would allow for experimentation on the fuse size to more precisely determine the lowest fuse size that will hold in normal operation?

Bill

Bill, a fuse between the pickup roller and the board protects the transformer. A fuse between the board and the motor protects the board. Thats what you want to do. Whether you choose a PTC vs a common fuse is up to you. They both have trade offs.

Pete

But that only protects you from a motor short or stall, again a pretty rare issue.  If you put it between the board and the track on the AC side you do need to determine the total AC load, versus a Motor only DC load.

This may be necessary for the mini cdr, but I have not seen any of Lionels other boards go that bad when a fet/Triac or transistor for motor control goes.  Not to say it can't but I have not seen it and I have repaired quite a few 103E units and some of Lionel's new Hi current Reverse boards for conventional engines.   LCRUs and DC/AC DRs have been pretty robust.  G

"a fuse between the pickup roller and the board protects the transformer. A fuse between the board and the motor protects the board"

I don't really understand why this is.  Seems like a surge in the motor would go through the whole system from the pickup, through the board and to the motor.  By fusing ahead of the motor we would be shutting down the board completely when there is a surge.  Can someone please clarify further.

Thanks

Bill

It does, but I think John and Pete are treating the Motor as the main load.  When the motor shorts or stalls it can draw a high DC current from the board.  Since the Motor FETs can fail under this load and burn the board traces you place the "Fuse" between the two.  This protects the FETs from the motor closest to the load.

As I mentioned, if you place it to protect the board you have to consider the higher AC voltage but lower AC current that feeds the board to create a lower DC voltage sent to the motor.

For a board with the main load as the motor John/Pete's is probably a better approach.

For an MTH board where High Voltage DC is available on smoke units, light and such you might need protection on the Motor leads and the power Lead for the smoke and lights.  Or you try to protect the whole board.   G

In the instances where I fried the Mini-Commander 2s one was a motor that locked up, as John stated it fried in just seconds, I was not quick enough to react. The second incident was caused by a light socket that was shorted out, that also went pretty fast. The Mini-2 is rated at 2 amps continuous service but mine, running under a load, I have not seen go over 1 amp according to the ammeter that I have in the system. Can you give me an idea of where would be a good place to start, size/amp rating, and the volt rating I should consider. I am using Lionel 180 Powerhouses with Powermasters. These rated at 18v register on the voltmeters a max of 18volts. As I looked at the PTC I saw volt ratings would go from 13v or 16v to 30v, would I buy the 30v PTC or would it be ok to use the lower voltage unit. I as I stated earlier am not very well versed in these things and am really happy that you folks can guide us.

Ray

The 16V PTC would be fine for the motor leads, the 30v one would work as well.  I haven't checked, but my sense is maybe the lower voltage ones would be slightly faster to trip.  The only reason for a voltage rating is to prevent a flash-over across the unit I would imagine, that's the same as a fuse voltage rating.

Gunrunnerjohn, to eliminate the hassle of worrying about accidently frying a cruise commander-lite board, will full size cruise commander and small steam railsounds commander boards both fit in Lionel's Strasburg and North Pole Central 0-8-0 rtr starter set engines? Would there be room to also fit a fan driven smoke unit and your super chuffer in those two engines?

How about a conventional Polar Express engine, enough room to put tmcc, railsounds and a fandriven smoke unit with your super chuffer in this loco?

I'd have to see the locomotives, though I suspect it'll be a tight squeeze with the full Cruise Commander and RailSounds Commander in either of those.  I put the full CC and RS into a semi-scale once, and every square inch of space was used, they were really stuffed in there!

There isn't that much risk of frying the CC-Lite with proper protection.  I got brave and stalled the motor in the K-Line Interurban setup to see if the PTC would do it's job, no problem. It survived several tests, so I'm thinking that's a reasonable solution to the possibility of stalling the motor.  So far I haven't seen any effect during normal running, even on grades with a few cars, the Hogwarts locomotive doesn't miss a beat.

The bonus with the CC-Lite is that it's really cheap until the end of the year, so you're risking very little money as well.

If you get the electronics all into the tender, adding the fan driven smoke and Super-Chuffer in the boiler is no problem, lots of space.  Might even be room for a second speaker to distribute the sound, that gives a nice effect.

John, Please remind us what the Cruise Lite was driving when it blew up. I assume it could drive either of these motors without need for protection as even the larger one will not draw more than 2.5 amps even when stalled.

Most Williams diesels have two of the larger motors and still only draw less than an amp when running light. This is an application where protection would be required since if this engine stalled it could draw close to 5 amps. 

As for fitting a full blown cruise commander, fan smoke and super chuffer in a starter set 0-8-0, I think not. I just tried adding a super chuffer to a scale 0-8-0 and couldn't find the room. Board layout is different though. In addition to the R2LC and DCDS it has a motherboard. A Cruise Commander eliminates the motherboard.

Pete

It was a K-Line dual-motored rig, and it was a motor the size of the RS-385, didn't take it apart again to see if that's the exact number.  However, I can assure you that the damage did happen.

You're talking apples and oranges with that 0-8-0, because you have the TMCC components in the locomotive taking up a lot of room.  If you put both in the tender, there's plenty of room in the locomotive for the Super-Chuffer and fan driven smoke.

I've put the Super-Chuffer and fan driven smoke in a semi-scale K-Line Mikado, it was a tight fit, but it is in there.  That one has the R2LC and CC-M in the locomotive. 

If you put all of the electronics in the tender you won't have much room for a speaker.

The starter set 0-8-0 comes with the smaller motor pictured above. It was what the Cruise Lite was meant for and is even used as an example in their installation manual.

Most of this talk about fuses and PTCs is for folks who like to experiment and put these circuits where they weren't designed to be which includes two motored diesels and large Pittman steam engines.

Pete

Hi Pete (Norton),

      Do you have a source and part number for the motor on the left with the yellow end-cap and brass flywheel?   I could use a similar motor for a homemade project.

Thanks! 

Take care, Joe.

Joe, Its the one from the starter set 0-8-0s. You can get it from Lionel and maybe a few of dealers on the forum. I removed the motor from my engine and replaced it with the larger one but I see it on Lionels website.

One caveat, they come with the gear. If you don't need it they are difficult to remove. I had to remove it and put it on the larger motor to mesh with the axle gear.

Pete