What would cause a lionel 180 watt power house breaker to trip ?

"What would cause a lionel 180 watt power house breaker to trip ?"

heavy breathing!

They are sensitive for good reason. They don't know the reason for what's happening, it's just protecting things.

The MTH Z4000 will overlook some quick shorts that my PH180's will trip on. So I installed fuses for protection.

The PH180 has an electronic breaker that actually has has two different trip criteria.  If the power ramps up fairly slowly, it will allow a brief overload before it trips.  However, if the power spikes very sharply, there is a quick acting part of the circuit that probably interprets the spike as a short and fires the breaker.

I just came up from the layout & i ran the train with two lighted passenger cars & both smoke units off for 5 minutes ,then i put both smoke units on & ran them for another 5 minutes ,so far so good ,no problems the only thing i did was clean the track hopefully it is nothing else ,the fact that it happened with two different engines suggest that as was mentioned it could be dirty track ,or a problem with the powerhouse ,time will tell .

I can tell you that 11 MTH passenger cars and 2 diesels will trip a PH180 breaker

What type of track? If it is tubular, an insulator may have worn through on the center rail..

Dave ,it is fast track ,as i stated above right now everything seems to be working ok now that i have cleaned the track ,i may never know what the problem was ,but i will keep checking it & if i find out anything else i will post what i have found .

Gerald, after you have read all the above theoretical advice, I suggest that you take matters into your own hands, and use this information:  using an ammeter connected to your track, run your trains, and watch the meter to see if the current draw exceeds the rating of the transformer for any significant length of time.  It's not rocket science, but it is science.

Tap the "on" button for one of your accessories after  you unknowingly have pressed "all" in accessories mode while using the WI-FI DCS.  If you have a substantial number of accessories, the PH-180 will trip and I guarantee it will get your attention quickly.  What would really be a problem is if you were in "switches" mode and you pressed one of the switch direction buttons after you unknowingly have pressed  "all".  Don't know if the Ph-180 would trip but you would wish it did after all your engines switched tracks at the same time while running.

M.D. ,I only power the trains with the powerhouse 180 ,no accessories .

Arthur P. Bloom ,I did check how many volts was being drawn while the powered unit & dummy unit & 2 lighted passengers cars being pulled with it & i got 16.4 volts at all points on the track ,so there was no voltage drop at any point on this loop .

My guess is that there was something on/near the track and your cleaning moved it.  A single strand of wire  brushed by a wheel would cause a short that would pop the fast breakers of a PH180.  I have some cars that brush the center rail on some switches and the breaker pops instantly.  Of course, these are switches that are very hard to reach.

Gerald Marafioti posted:

Arthur P. Bloom ,I did check how many volts was being drawn while the powered unit & dummy unit & 2 lighted passengers cars being pulled with it & i got 16.4 volts at all points on the track ,so there was no voltage drop at any point on this loop .

Checking it with an amp meter as Arthur says will give you numbers to see how close you are to the transformers max. Since the stopages were near the same spot with different engines I think the others are correct you had a track issue of some kind and the spike tripped the breaker.

Arthur Bloom ,I don't have much knowledge about ammeters ,i don't even know what one looks like ,the meter i have can read volts which i understand & some other things that i don't know anything about ,do you have any suggestions which one to get ? ,i would like to buy one it would be good to have .

Here is a photo of the meter i have ,can this meter measure amps ,if yes which setting would i use ?   

I can't read it.  It must be able to read AC amps, up to at least 10 amps.  Appears it doesn't have an AC amps setting.

Here is a better picture of the meter as far as i can see there is no setting for me to read amps ,am i correct about that ?,if there is a setting can you point it out to me . I would like to get a better meter if i knew which one to get ,any help would be really appreciated .

Nope, don't see an AC Amps setting there......

OK ,Thanks Gilly ,anybody have any suggestions on which meter to get ?

Gerald:

If the problem persists run a magnet (available at tool supply houses - use to pick up screws bolts etc from the floor) over the track section and see what you pick up.

Joe

This clamp-on ammeter is inexpensive. HOWEVER, tripping the breaker could very well be the result of a fast transient. In other words, you may not learn anything by putting a meter on it.

Since it has tripped twice at the same spot, I would focus my attention there.

Joe Fauty ,I did run a magnet both on the track & along side of it & nothing ws picked up .

Gilly ,even  though  i may not be able to learn much with this problem i am still going to get a better meter with the ability to get readings in amps along with other abilities ,it will be better for me for any future problems i may have ,& so far since i cleaned the track everything is working fine ,since there haven't been any suggestions on which meter to get i will have to  do the best i can shopping with Amazon .   Thanks for all the help from everyone.

Gerald, a magnet will not pick up bits of copper or aluminum, which can cause shorts.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The PH180 has an electronic breaker that actually has has two different trip criteria.  If the power ramps up fairly slowly, it will allow a brief overload before it trips.  However, if the power spikes very sharply, there is a quick acting part of the circuit that probably interprets the spike as a short and fires the breaker.

Do you know the specs on the fast breaker? 

Seems to me if Gerald is shopping for a digital meter for the specific scenario described, he should look for something with an analog bar-graph function to capture transient peaks of current.  Meters with that capability can be $100 or more.  So maybe a traditional $10 analog-needle ammeter that would jerk clock-wise on a transient might be more economical...again for the specific problem at hand.  Point being, the numeric current reading on a moving consist tends to bounce around a lot on a digital meter as a transient/spike current event can be masked as the readout updates only a few times per second. 

A digital meter with the analog bar-graph function, or an analog needle meter might better uncover fast events.  My 2 cents.

I don't know the exact specifications of the fast breaker, Dale Manquen and I were having a conversation about the circuitry and he had analyzed it and described the operation.  U1a and U1d with Q1 are a latching circuit that picks the relay and interrupts power.U1b and U1c appear to be the two sense circuits that react  to the overload current sensor and trigger the latching circuit.

Stan 2004 ,I don't need a high end meter as i don't know very much about electronics ,however i am still going to get a new meter with the ability to read amps & possibly some other things it will be a small improvement over what i have now ,i was looking on Amazon & there several meters that will give me more features than i have now & they don't cost a lot of money & as i have said in my previous response everything is working fine right now ,if it happens again then i will have to look further to find the problem ,i will just have to wait & see  ,but i do appreciate all the help you guys give me .     Thanks ,   Jerry M. 

As was noted above, I doubt that a digital meter could give a noticeable reaction to a short in the brief time it takes for a PH180 breaker to open.

when a short occurs as you described, try turning out the room lights and watching for a brief spark.

You want to buy a meter that has "AC 10 amps" as one of the choices on the rotary switch.  They cost about $10.  An ammeter is placed in series with the track supply.  A best choice is an analog meter (that means one with a needle) rather than a digital one (that means one with a numerical display.)