Well, LC+ 2.0 looks to be their semi-scale line for the future, and they seem to be jumping in and building up that line, so there's hope for the future.
As far as acquiring MTH tooling, I'd have to rate that as a long shot, but who knows.
Question is, will Lionel build up the LM line with new tooling? Seems to me like acquiring some RK tooling could make good business sense as an alternative. Admittedly I'm spit balling here, I gave no idea how the business case compares. Maybe there's not a business case for either.
There may be many reasons that Lionel couldn't or wouldn't acquire any MTH tooling or assets. I think this is a scenario that you'll just have to wait for it to play out. Predicting the future is a total guessing game, who predicted that MTH would close up shop?
My fear? Lionel goes back to its pre-MTH status. That would be a disaster for this hobby.
I don't think Atlas or Golden Gate are a sufficient challenge to Lionel like MTH. OTHERWISE JOHN you will need to step up!
@Scott R posted:Question is, will Lionel build up the LM line with new tooling? Seems to me like acquiring some RK tooling could make good business sense as an alternative. Admittedly I'm spit balling here, I gave no idea how the business case compares. Maybe there's not a business case for either.
FWIW, Lionmaster locos are all made to the same "semi scale" porportions and are more consistant across the model.
The ralking line varies, some models are a bit larger than others, and certain parts are more selectively compressed.
I.E. the Railking Y6 has a boiler thats an 1& 1/2" to short on the smokebox end. The Railking Allegheny has a tiny tender when compared the the length and girth of the locomotive.
I owned the Railking ATSF Northern as well as the Lionmaster hudson. The hudson nearly dwarfed the northern.
All of the variations is "semi scale" is part of the reason I sold them off and went full scale.
In my opinion, it would be great for Lionel to acquire some of the MTH Railking tooling for use in LionChief Plus 2.0. There is some valuable tooling that could be put to use well in LC+ 2.0 (for example, Forty-Niner, FEF, N&W J, Mohawk, some of the diesels, etc.).
However, many of the models, such as the Berk, the Challenger, the Big Boy, the Hudson, etc., are already available to Lionel either in the former LionChief Plus line or the LionMaster line. The LionMaster line's advantages over the RailKing Imperial line have already been discussed at length here so I won't reiterate what's already been said.
However, what many people, and perhaps even Lionel themselves, often look over is that, in a way, their semi-scale Berk has the edge over MTH's semi-scale Berk.
About 15 years ago, Lionel produced a Chessie Steam Special set that featured a semi-scale Berk as a stand-in for Reading 2101. In this set, the engine featured illuminated flying numberboards, something that NO MTH RailKing models have featured to my knowledge.
This video features the set in action. It's dimly lit, but if you look closely when the Berk goes around the far curve, you can see them. Better photos that I can't post here in compliance with OGR's Terms of Service can be found on Lionel's website, item no. 6-31734.
Although Lionel hasn't put flying numberboards on a Jr. Berk since, the tooling is there. So Lionel has the ability to create a correct semi-scale model of, say, a Nickel Plate Berk, without having to create new tooling, whereas MTH could not.
My point is that a lot of MTH's RailKing tooling wouldn't be valuable to Lionel since they have other tooling already available to them. And particularly in the LionMaster line and in the Jr. Berk I mentioned, their tools are actually superior to those of MTH.
I would be happy with Lionel just releasing previous LM products, but with the new 2.0 technology and sounds like they did in the LC+ 2.0 Big Boy.
My LC+ 2.0 Big Boy blew away my expectations for this new product line. If they keep going down this path they will have a winner for sure.
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It would be nice if Lionel paid for the MTH designs . . . . this time.
Good points all, I agree it wouldn't make sense for LM to acquire the RK line in its entirety, especially where there is overlap in tooling. LM tooling is generally considered superior to RK Imp tooling, but it is also more expensive per the BB comparison example I used earlier in this thread. Which one is the better value is a personal decision that is about to become moot.
We are soon to be down to just one manufacturer of semi-scale locomotives. I'm hoping that Lionel seizes the opportunity to expand its lineup of value priced, semi-scale power for us space and dollar conscious modelers.
@Rusty Traque posted:Frankly, the Lionemaster locomotives had superior looks over their RailKing equivalents.
Rusty
Yes. There seemed to be a general concensus that Lionel did a much better job of compressing dimensions than MTH did. Some of the RailKing engines looked pretty awkward.
I dunno, I'll take my Rail King Imperial Berk over my Lionel 726 Replica and my Berk Junior. I haven't seen the LC2 Berk, but am of the impression it's the size of the Berk Junior. Too small IMO even for semi/non-scale for a Berk.
I’m hoping Lionel will include the EM-1,2-6-6-2, 2-8-8-2, and Milwaukee Road S-3 in the Lionmaster line some day.
@raising4daughters posted:I dunno, I'll take my Rail King Imperial Berk over my Lionel 726 Replica and my Berk Junior. I haven't seen the LC2 Berk, but am of the impression it's the size of the Berk Junior. Too small IMO even for semi/non-scale for a Berk.
The comparisons folks are talking about is between the LionMaster line of semi-scale engines and the RailKing semi-scale. The engines you're mentioning aren't LionMaster engines. The 726 is modeled after a traditional Postwar engine, which is not a semi-scale engine, and the Baby Berk is an even smaller engine designed as a starter engine. You're comparing apples to oranges (or perhaps apples to cantaloupes). 
You're right, I think - the new LC2 Berks coming out look like they're the same body as the Baby Berks. It would have been more of interest if they had been at least 726 sized Berks, at least IMHO.
@AlanRail posted:It would be nice if Lionel paid for the MTH designs . . . . this time.
You probably need to go back and review the history once again.
I’ve got one MTH Imperial loco, a Pennsylvania K4S. AFAIK, Lionel have never released this?
Remember the LionMaster sets with SD80s and 90s including 4 freight cars, sprung trucks, plus smoking caboose, 048 Fastrack and a CW80 all for $400 - $450. Those were cool deals. RICH
I find it interesting that Lionel catalogued the LM AC-2 right after MTH released their RK Imperial version. I think both models look great. Does anyone have a side-by-side comparison photo?
How many Lionmaster models were done?
I have the Legacy Lionmaster Challenger. I am awaiting delivery of the LM Big Boy.
I can recall the PRR T1 (really want one of those) and Cab Forward. Apparently there was a Hudson as well as an SD90 or similar diesel.
Were there any others?
Please forgive my last post, I meant to say the SP AC-12 cab Fwd, not AC-2.
@breezinup posted:The comparisons folks are talking about is between the LionMaster line of semi-scale engines and the RailKing semi-scale. The engines you're mentioning aren't LionMaster engines. The 726 is modeled after a traditional Postwar engine, which is not a semi-scale engine, and the Baby Berk is an even smaller engine designed as a starter engine. You're comparing apples to oranges (or perhaps apples to cantaloupes).
Well, not entirely, as one poster above says that Lionel's semi-scale Berk is better than MTH's. Here's his quote "However, what many people, and perhaps even Lionel themselves, often look over is that, in a way, their semi-scale Berk has the edge over MTH's semi-scale Berk."
Since Lionel hasn't made a Lionmaster Berk, I can only assume he was referring to either the postwar model (original or replica) or the O27 Junior Berk. I don't think either can hold a candle to MTH's semi-scale Berk (Imperial or pre-Imperial). That's the only point I was disputing.
My only Lionmaster is the Lionmaster Hudson, and, there, I 100% agree that nothing in the MTH Rail King line compares with the Lionmaster Hudson. I think it is the best looking semi/non-scale Hudson I've ever seen.
I have a LionMaster Challenger, Big Boy, and Cab Forward - all have been great values even though I eventually moved into the scale offerings.
I was surprised the Allegheny offering in previous catalog got cancelled, I would have thought a Eastern based LionMaster offering would have been a success.
Jim
@Jim Sandman posted:I was surprised the Allegheny offering in previous catalog got cancelled, . . .
Jim
It could have been cancelled for reasons other than lack of demand. Production-source and supply-chain issues account for a good portion of the headaches many companies working with Pacific-rim suppliers have,
I think I said this on this thread or others like it. But Lionel is missing a huge marketing opportunity. As many of you remember, Lionel made the Lionmaster line Legacy until the newest Lionmaster Big Boy was announced as a part of Lionchief 2.0. I really wish Lionel left the Lionmaster Line with Legacy. If they did that I believe you can still have Bluetooth and the Whistle steam effect.
But at the same time, Technology has changed a lot, I can understand that Lionel had to cut legacy out of the Lionmaster. It would’ve been nice because I would love the legacy features that they would have. But Lionel’s changes are making it simple to operate their products. I just wished Lionel made the Cab Forwards a few years back, that would be cool with Legacy and Whistle steam, but I think you could make the front coupler removable and add a dummy to consist them with other Lionmaster engines.
"It would be nice if Lionel paid for the MTH designs . . . . this time."
If you read the translations of the Korean court transcripts, Lionel paid for the designs. They happened to pay someone who also did designs for MTH's supplier, Samhongsa. A common event in that industry in Korea, apparently; i.e. reusing the same design work for another company. Certainly saves effort but probably not legal unless one has a contract stating the the designs belong to the designer, not the purchaser.
The Korean courts found the designer(s) guilty of misconduct (there were at least initially prison sentences involved), but the issues were never definitively litigated in the USA. In the interim, many lawsuits occurred, signifying not much as far as I can tell.
Here's the coda. Samhongsa and Korea Brass (Lionel's supplier) are long out of the train business in Korea. MTH is about to exit the train business. Bob Grubba, the CEO of Broadway Limited (BLI), and the chief of engineering at Lionel at that time, who has taken whatever heat people have decided he deserves (I have my doubts) and his company BLI are thriving in HO and N.
Update: Just checked Bob's Linked In site and he is retired as of January 2019. Ken Silvestri, who also was at Lionel back in the day, is apparently still working like some of us older folks 
.
For those interested in Lionmaster, I apologize for the digression.
@SDIV Tim posted:I think I said this on this thread or others like it. But Lionel is missing a huge marketing opportunity. As many of you remember, Lionel made the Lionmaster line Legacy until the newest Lionmaster Big Boy was announced as a part of Lionchief 2.0. I really wish Lionel left the Lionmaster Line with Legacy. If they did that I believe you can still have Bluetooth and the Whistle steam effect.
But at the same time, Technology has changed a lot, I can understand that Lionel had to cut legacy out of the Lionmaster. It would’ve been nice because I would love the legacy features that they would have. But Lionel’s changes are making it simple to operate their products. I just wished Lionel made the Cab Forwards a few years back, that would be cool with Legacy and Whistle steam, but I think you could make the front coupler removable and add a dummy to consist them with other Lionmaster engines.
A number of years ago, there was discussion about the future of the LionMaster line. I recall one of the comments Lionel made was that it was almost as expensive to produce a LionMaster engine as a scale one, so it wasn't possible for Lionel to offer a significantly lower price for a LionMaster product. Apparently, they looked upon that as a reason for phasing out the LionMaster line. My response to that was that this rationale, for whatever economic sense it made to Lionel, didn't do any good for those operators (no doubt the majority) who have smaller layouts that can't accomodate the larger scale-sized engines. They were left with no opportunity to ever run a model of one of these larger engines on their layouts.
For them, even if they had to pay a price not that much below a scale engine, they would pay it to have an opportunity to have engines they could actually use. There was no other choice, in fact. The LionMaster LC2+ is a good example. It has a list of $1200, which puts it up there in price, and yet it has been very popular. One would assume that equipping such engines with LC2+ will keep the price of the LionMaster line down below that of Legacy engines, which should address whatever hesitation Lionel has from an economic standpoint.
I picked up a LionMaster Legacy Challenger a few years, which also has the whistle steam, and think it's great. But if Lionel feels the need to substitute LC2+, so be it. That's certainly acceptable, IMHO, as long as they keep offering the LionMaster line of engines.
Speaking of that, Dave said in a comment on this thread back in the Spring of 2019, in answer to someone who asked about a re-issue of the LionMaster Hudson, to "Be patient." That certainly sounded like it was in the queue, and we've certainly been patient, so "bring it on."
I am one of those smaller radius guys that has eagerly awaited a LC Lionmaster Big Boy. I'm glad I was patient. It has only been in the shop (under warranty) twice. I will run it til the wheels fall off ( a definite possibility since that was the under warranty problem!). That aside, it is a beautiful engine and an homage to 4012 which is being repainted at Steamtown.
The LionMaster SD90MAC could be painted in the new Canadian Pacific SD70ACu schemes.
The LionMaster SD80MAC can be painted in the scheme that the Chicago & North Western would have applied if their order had not been cancelled by the Union Pacific merger.
Andrew
