Whatever happened to MTH scale coupler?

A good question to ask the reps at York this month!!

It may have something to do with their HO coupler experience...not all good.   I'm speaking about the coupler that can be opened with a DCC command...std equipment on some of their latest HO engines.  It takes a fair amount of force to close the knuckle when coupling to a car/train.  Sometimes that requires more speed for the maneuver to work reliably...not an acceptable prototype practice!...especially for a single car with free-rolling trucks. 

But that's just conjecture on my part.  The economy, investment/tooling/marketing dollars being spent on items with bigger payoff (e.g., European market), their new venture into S gauge, etc., etc.,...they can slow down some early plans. 

Ask Mike at York.  Let us all know.

KD

I've always heard that the HO version works very well, and has been out for a number of years. Last I recall was that MTH was having issues with the amount of current required to make the double size, O Scale version work reliably. Maybe it is indeed "on the back burner" for O Scale.

As KD mentioned, I did read in Model Railroader reviews of the HO coupler that it required 20MPH(scale) to close the coupler, which in HO scale perspective is far too great. Some find it acceptable, most do not.

Would be nice if they come up with a solution for us.

A good question to ask the reps at York this month!!

I agree.  It is a good question.  I'll be sure to ask.

I did read in Model Railroader reviews of the HO coupler that it required 20MPH(scale) to close the coupler, which in HO scale perspective is far too great. Some find it acceptable, most do not.

I read that MR review.  Sometimes MR just doesn't do very well with something new.  The MTH operating HO couplers work very well with McHenery's and the Kadee #58 scale coupler.  The MTH operating coupler does not work quite as well with the old Kadee #5 but far better than MR reported.

My Brother Dave shot this video of this HO SD70ACe a few years ago.  As you can see the coupling speed with a stock Athearn car with McHenery couplers is very realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ot0&feature=plcp

Nice video Ted (and Dave)

Given KD's expireance,  it seems like the remote coupler works really nice if at least two or more cars are coupled to give it a bit more weight to snuggle up to. 

Would be nice to see if MTH has any news on the subject.

Hi guys,

I can't tell you anything about where the O scale coupler is on the "to do" list at MTH R&D, but I can tell you one of the major design hurdles has been resolved.

As Hot Water mentioned, they did have to redesign the driver circuit.  The coupler uses muscle wire, which operates on very low voltage and relatively high current.  MTH had to design the parameters for voltage, current and time from scratch.  They had to do two completely separate rounds of testing because the amount of muscle wire movement is substantially greater in O than in HO.  However, that development work seems to be complete.

Earlier this year I attended the MTH technician certification seminars and had the chance to use the new PS3 board test fixture.  For those who don't know, MTH has been selling service centers a test fixture since the early days of Protosound 2.  The test fixture duplicates the hardware in a PS2 engine (lights, speaker, couplers, smoke unit, etc.).  It allows techs to check what if any features of a board are malfunctioning, so you know if you have a problem with the board or with the other hardware in the engine.  The new PS3 test fixture includes test harnesses for all variations of PS3 (there are a bunch in HO).  That includes a test circuit that duplicates the electrical characteristics of the new O scale coupler.  The fixture I used did not have an actual coupler on it, but the electrical values seem to be settled.

A few years ago when the O scale coupler was first being discussed, I was told that MTH was considering making the coupler closer to scale than a Kadee 805.  At the time I though that was a really bad idea.  The HO experience demonstrated how critical coupler contour is for this application.  Since the 805 has been the defacto standard in O scale for decades I figured it would be best to design the operating coupler for best coupling with the 805.  Now that the Kadee #740 series couplers are out I'm rather hoping that MTH ignored me.  Personally, I'm hoping the long delay in the development of the coupler will allow MTH to follow through with their intentions of a "more scale" coupler and that they make it compatible with the Kadee #740-747.

Bluegill

The SD70 was coupling with three cars at ONE SMPH.  And that is one HO scale mile per hour at that.  We could couple reliably with one car at 3 smph.  The MTH HO couplers work very well with McHenery's and Kadee #58s.  They work less well with Kadee #5s. 

Operating skill matters too.  I used to gently push a single box car down a siding or yard track with an Athearn GP38-2 without ever coupling the Kadee #5s.  And if I nudged the throttle I'd get the couplers to mate.  If I wanted to make the joint on the first try I'd just come in a little quicker.

There is some skill involved and some techniques to learn to switch most effectively with remote couplers.  When switching with Proto 2 or 3 in DCS mode I normally come into a car or cut of cars at 8-10 SMPH and hit the direction button when I'm 2 1/2 to 3 inches out.  That usually results in successful coupling without much of a jolt to the cars.  We can get good productivity out of a switch crew using that technique and be at least as easy on the lading as some 1:1 scale crews.   

Lots of good info from the Hikel brothers, thanks guys.

Let us know if they have any updates at York.

Just had a thought, we've always discussed this MTH 'scale coupler' topic in relation to engines.

We've never mentioned if they plan on offering it on cars. Hmm....

Most of MTH's Premier Line freight cars already come with the appropriate shim and pre-drilled mounting holes in the underbody for installing Kadee #805 or #700 series couplers.

I'm glad to hear that MTH still has this somewhere in the works.  I think an operating scale or near scale coupler will help greatly to bring the revolution or should I say evolution along. 

MTH may be undervaluing the value of a "scale" sized operating coupler in for O.  People tend to gravitate to the latest technology and the coupler would be a real breakthrough.  Many have said that they wont give up the claw because of having to give up the operating coupler.

I would definitely add to my fleet of MTH engines after they come out with "scale" sized couplers.  I thought PS3 would move me to upgrade, but PS2 is fine.  A new scale sized operating coupler, which I can't get anywhere else, would make me start buying again.

I know that Andy Edelman has mentioned that MTH is working on or has what they call PS3 LITE that`s for Cars and Accessories..

speaking of scale couplers...has anyone converted any Atlas 3 rail freight cars to scale couplers using scale coupler kit included with their cars? how is the installation and how well do they operate?

thank you!

Due to VERY poor performance with Atlas' "Adjust-A-Coupler", they no longer include those pieces of junk with their cars. I tried quite a few, but since I body mount scale couplers, I still had nothing but trouble with them. The knuckles kept braking. I just recently discovered four more Atlas O PFE wood reefers, that I had installed those "Adjust-A-Couplers" on, and the darned knuckles where even broken in the storage tubs! Plus the centering springs on ANY Atlas scale couplers are way too stiff.

I now use NOTHING but body mounted Kadee #805 or the new #740 couplers.

Hot Water

thanks for the reply, you saved me tons of work!

Just had a thought, we've always discussed this MTH 'scale coupler' topic in relation to engines.

We've never mentioned if they plan on offering it on cars. Hmm....

I know that Andy Edelman has mentioned that MTH is working on or has what they call PS3 LITE that`s for Cars and Accessories..

Lionel has done something similar with the Legacy ethanol tank cars.  They have sound and remotely operated couplers.  And MTH did the Coors Silver Bullet train several years ago with operating cars.  There is huge potential for more realistic operation when cars can have command controlled features.

One of the limitations right now seems to be the DCS remote.  It is just about out of available memory so new features can't be created with just a software update.  It will take waiting for the new remote unless MTH decides to enable another work around for the limitations of the current remote.

I would definitely add to my fleet of MTH engines after they come out with "scale" sized couplers. .................................................................... A new scale sized operating coupler, which I can't get anywhere else, would make me start buying again.

All my recent diesel purchases have been -2 versions to get the fixed pilot.  But I have decided not to buy several locomotives since I don't want to get stuck with too many diesels that can only be used as a middle unit in a consist for lack of remote couplers.  I get to operate where power changes happen at division points and rear helpers need to uncouple on the fly.  Kadees are too big a limitation.  It is good to hear other MTH customer make similar remarks.  The more that customers ask for scale operating couplers the higher the priority bringing this to market is likely to be.

Let us know if they have any updates at York.

Will do! 

Due to VERY poor performance with Atlas' "Adjust-A-Coupler", they no longer include those pieces of junk with their cars. I tried quite a few, but since I body mount scale couplers, I still had nothing but trouble with them. The knuckles kept braking. I just recently discovered four more Atlas O PFE wood reefers, that I had installed those "Adjust-A-Couplers" on, and the darned knuckles where even broken in the storage tubs! Plus the centering springs on ANY Atlas scale couplers are way too stiff.

You would have had the same experience with Atlas 2 rail body mounted couplers.  The problems were due to the coupler (knuckle) die casting, not the design.  The poor die casting also affected other Atlas die cast parts (which I will not go into).

If you need to you can get the Adjust-A-Coupler to work fine if you buy the new replacement coupler offered by Atlas.  The new replacement couplers were produced by a new factory. 

2 railers that successfully use Atlas couplers (body mounted) replace the centering spring with a Kadee centering spring, the same will work with the Adjust-A-Coupler.   

All that said, if you don't like to experiment, use body mounted Kadees.

Exactly! Why go through the trouble to find & purchase the "new" Atlas coupler, then have to purchase Kadee centering springs to get the Atlas coupler to operate "better"?

Good point.

Lets hope MTH comes thru with a winner.

You could always do what we used to do, back when I modeled in HO; remove the knuckle from the rear Kadee coupler, of certain cabooses, for use in rear helper districts. That way, the helper is pushing on the rear coupler of the caboose, but when the helper needs to "drop off", it is very simple. We used that technique for some 40 years on the EMD HO model railroad club, and never had a problem.

Scale couplers were asked about at the DCS users forum at York last week.  They are still on MTHs to do list but have been bumped back by other R&D priorities like variations on the ProtoSound 3 hardware for O scale, HO and now S scale.

MTH Marketing VP Andy Edelman asked for a show of hands from those in attendance who were interested in scale operating couplers.  A distinct minority raised their hands. 

Unless we can convince MTH that there is a significant market for locomotives or operating cars with scale operating couplers I don't think MTH will be in a rush to move scale operating coupler development ahead of many other projects.  And that is too bad.  My Brother Dave and I had a great time operating at the Marinari's.  Pat has an all Kadee equipped roster on the layout and that was great.  But I sure missed having operating couplers when switching.

Thanks for the update Ted.  Unfortunately the Tuesday night of York week I became aware that I wouldn't be able to attend, otherwise I could have added my hand to those that wanted a scale coupler.

Looking at the broader picture MTH and others should remember back when those at York didn't want things like steam engines with 4 chuffs per rev.  I remember the complaints back in the early 2000's from those with a collector's mindset and 2 chuffs per rev became the defacto sound for about 6 years.  Now the prototypical 4 chuffs is standard.

Edleman and others should be leading the way to an operating scale coupler.  If MTH builds it, they will come.  Once scale operating couplers are released, those that like owning the latest will buy them and the rest will eventually follow.  The next revolution in O is not going to take place with an improved sound set.  It will have to come from new innovation.  The iPad system is a new innovation and at some point everyone will want it.  The same holds true for an operating scale coupler.   

I have no plans to replace any engines because of a better sound set.  If the only way I could get an operating scale coupler was to replace an engine or add to my collection I would. That would be worth the money.  Slightly better sound and other minor gimmicks are not worth the cost of replacing an engine, a scale operating coupler represents an evolution in both 3 and 2 rail equipment. 

I agree with Marker.

So do I. I will talk with Dave, Andy, and Rich it TrainFest next month. They know that I speak for the silent majority of 3RS modelers.

As someone who has made the switch to 2rail, I would like to see the coupler come about also.

Ralph

 There was a time when MTH was a leading company, an innovative company, etc. Please don't tell me that they are content and will just sit back now. SUre they are developing PS3, which I feel at least, should be one of the most innovative sound and control boards on the market. To utilize it to the fullest and gain it's rightfull place in the lead, the proto scale coupler takes the O gauge hobby to the next level.

 Now, lobbying a bunch of three railers in the group, you will get that kind of reponse of who cares. Convert some hardened two railers to a new product, now you're talking achievment!

 Oh boy, I wondered over here again......sorry.

And there you have it.  The 2- rail market is actually quite small, and I believe the three rail scale coupler market is even smaller.  MTH is smart - going after a market where there is a potential for profit.

Others are free to innovate - that is capitalism at its finest.  All you need to do is find out what the signal is out of PS-3 for coupler unlock, design the thing, and get started.  I am sure you will sell hundreds of these things.

I will talk with Dave, Andy, and Rich it TrainFest next month.

Please do.  But keep Bob2's comment in mind.

 I am sure you will sell hundreds of these things.

The MTH guys might share that opinion.  Their top priority projects are for things that sell in the thousands.  Or tens of thousands.  If we can make a case that they will sell thousands of locomotives or operating cars equipped with scale couplers then we might see this moved higher up on the to do list.

All you need to do is find out what the signal is out of PS-3 for coupler unlock, design the thing, and get started.

It is more complicated than that.  The current O scale PS-3 hardware is designed to power a solenoid for tinplate couplers.  The HO operating coupler uses muscle wire. An O scale (and S scale) operating coupler will likely use muscle wire as well.  It requires a different circuit than a solenoid.  So we need the decoder hardware and the coupler to be designed to work together.

An O scale (and S scale) operating coupler will likely use muscle wire as well.

It would seem that developing a coupler for O & S (same R&D costs) would bring up the numbers plus, MTH would have a big leg up on Lionel with S gauge.  Those original S gauge knuckle couplers are as bad or worse than Lionel O gauge couplers.

 But keep Bob2's comment in mind.

With all due respect to Bob2, he knows more than I about the size of 2 rail so I'll defer to his view there, but I think 3 rail is a bit different. 

3 rail has always toyed with becoming more scale.  The late 30's and late 40's, in the 50's the Lionel engines that came closer to scale like the F3, diesel switcher, Hudson, FM Train Master were always the most desired engines, as were the 6464 box cars.  Then came the 90's with scale die cast steam, diesels, a move by 3rd Rail to enter the 3 rail market as well as PRB attempting to produce 3 rail.  Just about all of the manufacturers produce very near scale, if not scale equipment.  

The operating scale coupler is the next logical move.  Early adopters that have not yet switched to Kadees could be lured with some kind of transition car and that could have an operating coupler of each type if necessary.

The real lure is that when you start looking at engines with scale couplers for a while, you can't accept a Lionel sized coupler anymore.  One of the most ridiculous engines with a Lionel sized coupler is the Atlas O F unit.  Seeing that ugly front coupler sticking out of the pilot destroys the looks of an otherwise great engine.

I believe that once scale couplers become promoted and viewed by the 3 rail masses, they will come along, and that will become the desired coupler for 3 rail scale equipment sold in the MTH Premier, Lionel Standard O, Atlas Master lines.  If MTH is the first to market, their engines will become the most desired. 

The only way to tell if something is going to work is to bring it to market and promote it, as the next best thing.  MTH spent a lot to introduce DCS, as did Lionel with TMCC and Legacy.  Scale sized couplers are the last thing missing, that could be used on every piece of equipment.  Being the first manufacturer to offer an operating scale coupler would be a great accomplishment that would be applicable to 2 rail O, 3 rail O, and S gauge. 

With regard to S gauge, I always thought it had much greater potential than was believed.  It has started to gain the traction needed,  Scale S gauge equipment with a scale operating coupler for S gauge would be a huge draw.

I can't think that a scale operating coupler wouldn't be something that would sell in the thousands.  It is the only development left that would universally affect every piece of equipment and cause the kind of evolution causing the kind of demand associated with sales in the thousands. 

While I agree that that is indeed a daunting coupler, most of the three rail crowd has accepted the look, along with the wheels and track.  Technically, there is no real reason for either, and if you want scale appearing track and couplers, there is an alternative.

So as soon as the small coupler crowd is as large as the 3- rail crowd, I am sure you will have your coupler.  Demand is what drives these things.  I have no doubt but that the demand will happen, but so far it has not impressed any supplier.

I know nothing about muscle wire, but can tell you that an electrical signal can be used to drive almost anything if there is a power source (track voltage).  Remember, Kadee (and indeed MTH) started in a garage, by smart kids.  If there really is a pent- up demand, beat the big guys to the punch and become rich and famous.

With the recent purchase of some Walthers Gold Line HO rolling stock, I see that although they have Kadee style couplers already on the car, they also include in the box, the older, ugly horn n hook style couplers. Gives the customer the option of changing them out.

It's a long shot, but wadda think of MTH doing the same, selling with a claw mounted, and also having scale couplers included? 

Big waste of money on MTH's part. Why?

1) Which coupler would be included? Kadee, Protocraft, etc.

2) MTH's lates freight rolling stock already comes with the correct size/thickness shim pad for mounting Kadee couplers.

3) The VAST MAJORITY of 3-Rail "toy train modelers" would just throw away any scale coupler.

4) Atlas O tried that idea with their "Adjust-A-Coupler" and it didn't go so well.

 So, I'm confused again. No big deal right? The PS3 boards will control the lobster claws with solenoids right? But, something special about down sizing these makes them different? You just can't get a solenoid to stay open long enough??? SOmething.....muscle wire....yada yada......Hmmmmm. I just don't get what's going on.

I'm not real sure what actually makes the lobster claw electro-couplers work, but it is NOT "muscle wire". Muscle wire works by passing a specific current THROUGH the wire, which then expands, i.e. grows longer, opening the smaller "scale size" knuckle. Muscle wire is pretty delicate stuff and requires SPECIFIC current/voltage flows for it to expand and contract. Obviously it has been working VERY well in HO models for MTH, but getting it to perform in a bigger O Scale couple, must be a bit more challenging.

I think the electro-magnetic couplers work like the button uncluplers.  But instead of activating an elctromagnet to push down the "plunger", it forces the coupler to open.  No way is it a muscle wire!

Didn't go so well because the adust a coupler were junk

The claw on Atlas' F3's look like something the cartoon Haggid the Horrible would use to break into a castle!  Make's big L look scale!

It was not so long ago that MTH was a startup.  And I don't think Lionel was amused at the time.  There is plenty of room for startups.  That is what America is all about.